Why digital is necessary

[Mike Walker]

I live in a rural area...which means it's pretty darn quiet in terms of RF interference (in comparison to urban/suburban communities). But even here, interference can be a pain in the rear to pin down.

Saturday I enjoyed the Catawba Valley Hamfest in Morganton NC, and picked up a great "bargain"...a 1983-85 Panasonic RFB300 shortwave/am/fm radio in great condition. This is an analog-tuned radio with digital frequency display. The display is apparently spot-on accurate, and the reception is great on all bands. The problem? When I got it home I immediately discovered a "pop, pop, pop" noise at about one second intervals being generated somewhere in my neighborhood. I jumped to the conclusion that it was my neighbor's electric fence, so I popped a portable radio in my pocket (to demonstrate the interference) and went for a stroll to confront him (in a neighborly way).

My trip to his house included about 100 yards of passing by the fence. Radio in hand, I noticed the noise was no louder by his fence than in my easy chair a good 50 yards away. Hmmm. Well...maybe it's the fence charger making the noise. So I listened again at the end of his driveway. The noise was there, but very muted. On his doorstep it was actually quieter than at my house. Fortunately my neighbor was at church, so nobody answered when I knocked.

On the way back home I stopped by the point where the electric fence begins, and placed my radio almost against it. Almost no noise. So it wasn't the fence. I still have no idea what it was. The joys of analog radio.

To anyone interested in dx reception (which is just about ALL reception to those of us in rural areas), digital modes have their advantages. No more walking around the neighborhood trying to pin down a noise. Just clear, NOISE-FREE reception. Say there are some digital artifacts? SO WHAT? I love radio, but analog can be a giant pain in the ass. Anyone who says there are no problems with analog just isn't paying attention. HD addresses REAL problems, and actually solves some!

 

[w9wi]

I live in a rural area...which means it's pretty darn quiet in terms of RF interference (in comparison to urban/suburban communities). But even here, interference can be a pain in the rear to pin down.
...

I certainly won't say there are no problems with analog, but are you sure digital is the solution to the problem you quote?

I work in TV. I very much enjoy over-the-air digital TV - *excellent* picture & sound quality, additional program choices through multicasting. On the other hand, sometimes a particular station simply *will not* come in. In analog, one can see the reason -- interference, noise, ghosts, whatever. In digital, the station simply doesn't come in. Why not? You've gotta guess.

Similarly with HD radio. It does sound good, and the multicasting can be interesting. (OK, at least on NPR which is the only station around here that's multicasting anything worthwhile...) But it doesn't seem to be very tolerant of anything less than strong, noise-free reception. I strongly suspect in your case, in HD, rather than receiving the pop, pop, pop interference, you'd receive nothing at all.

 

[Mike Walker]

Not MY experience with HD! I find HD FM to work anywhere noise-free analog fm stereo works. I have no first-hand experience with AM HD, but have heard from people I trust that it is far more tolerant of things like interference from flourescent lights and computer monitors than analog AM. And an intermittent pop against an otherwise quiet background shouldn't be a challenge for any digital system that actually works!

 

[Chuck]

I agree that Digital Radio has some real advantages, and like Mike, I can live with occasional digital artifacts. Generally speaking, they beat static, buzzing and popping noises that you can get in analog systems. If the current system did not slop all over the adjacent channels, I'd have no problem with it. Unfortunately, it does, so I think in our haste to "go digital," we have made a serious mistake.

Show me a hybrid digital system that is truly In Band On Channel, and I'd be all for it. Either that, or just allocate new spectrum for a truly digital radio service.

The horse may be out of the barn, but it is still possible that something better will come along.

 

[awj223]

Show me a hybrid digital system that is truly In Band On Channel, and I'd be all for it. Either that, or just allocate new spectrum for a truly digital radio service.

Why the obsession with hybrid systems? There's nothing wrong with in band systems, but the way to do this is an overnight conversion from pure analog to pure digital. Mandate that EVERY receiver sold be compatible with a selected digital standard, then after a few years do the overnight conversion. At that point all receivers will just switch modes. Any hybrid operations should be forbidden - we need to go from analog to digital overnight.

Didn't the FCC have to mandate that AM receivers had to have expanded band at some point in the past, because manufacturers weren't including it?

 

[radiopilot]

Didn't the FCC have to mandate that AM receivers had to have expanded band at some point in the past, because manufacturers weren't including it?

But that didn't make 500,000,000 analog radios go obsolete by simply adding an extended band on the AM... right?

HD will NEVER be fully digital on AM or FM and if the FCC ever mandated full digital in one or two years or for that matter last month... it would be the domm of terrestrial broadcasting except for the smart analog broadcasters not going digital....

Radiopilot

 

[PocketRadio]

Show me a hybrid digital system that is truly In Band On Channel, and I'd be all for it. Either that, or just allocate new spectrum for a truly digital radio service.

Why the obsession with hybrid systems? There's nothing wrong with in band systems, but the way to do this is an overnight conversion from pure analog to pure digital. Mandate that EVERY receiver sold be compatible with a selected digital standard, then after a few years do the overnight conversion. At that point all receivers will just switch modes. Any hybrid operations should be forbidden - we need to go from analog to digital overnight.

Didn't the FCC have to mandate that AM receivers had to have expanded band at some point in the past, because manufacturers weren't including it?

Oh, so the FCC has the authority to outlaw the manufacture and sale of pure-analog radios ? With such consumer apathy towards terrestrial radio/HD Radio, full-digital mode will never happen. HD Radio will never fly - you are dreaming ! The Sony, which I recently bought, does not included the expanded AM band.

 

[awj223]

But that didn't make 500,000,000 analog radios go obsolete by simply adding an extended band on the AM... right?

HD will NEVER be fully digital on AM or FM and if the FCC ever mandated full digital in one or two years or for that matter last month... it would be the domm of terrestrial broadcasting except for the smart analog broadcasters not going digital....

Radiopilot

Again, why this obsession with backward compatibility? Why must digital be backward compatible? The AMPS sunset is making all analog phones go obsolete. So what? Get a new phone and be done with it. IMO it's only the older generation that has this unhealthy obsession with backward compatibility to the point of hindering progress. Generation Y doesn't have this problem. Sometimes progress requires making older technology useless. Originally the FCC wanted to make HDTV backward compatible with NTSC. Can you imagine how BAD that would have looked? And remember than NTSC itself was a kludge system that was forced to be backward compatible with the old black and white system. Fortunately they got their head out of the sand, threw out the old system, and chose 8VSB with a mandatory NTSC sunset.

Where would we be if modern computers were designed to be compatible with ENIAC? Geez, if you want digital then give up the old system! If you aren't willing to make that leap, then just accept that we'll be keeping analog forever.

Oh, so the FCC has the authority to outlaw the manufacture and sale of pure-analog radios ? Cheesy With such consumer apathy towards terrestrial radio/HD Radio, full-digital mode will never happen. HD Radio will never fly - you are dreaming ! Cheesy

They DO have the authority to mandate an analog sunset. If they did, only idiots would keep buying and selling pure analog radios.

 

[radiopilot]

They DO have the authority to mandate an analog sunset. If they did, only idiots would keep buying and selling pure analog radios.

You didn't say that... try saying this comment to the below post and see the angry replies you'll get!

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

or

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/

You'll be in for a surprise.. I'm a member of this forum and I'd bet if they saw this comment, they'll be on you like fleas on a dog!

Radiopilot

 

[awj223]

You didn't say that... try saying this comment to the below post and see the angry replies you'll get!

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

or

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/

You'll be in for a surprise.. I'm a member of this forum and I'd bet if they saw this comment, they'll be on you like fleas on a dog!

Radiopilot

My comment doesn't mean they're idiots, given that there is currently no mandatory analog sunset. But if there were, you'd be a fool to keep buying analog equipment (exceptions for collectors of antiques). That doesn't mean that people won't continue doing it. You know, like the people that you see to this day walking out of stores with NTSC-only televisions. They're the ones who will be in for a surprise in two years.

I wouldn't mind seeing a conversion to digital, but given that it looks like consumers just don't care about the possible gains, it might not be the right decision. If analog is good enough, then we'll just have to accept the fact that we'll never seen the advantages of digital on AM and FM. That's also fine with me. The only opinion I have is that hybrid HD should be banned from our public airwaves because it's so destructive to adjacent channels.

 

[PocketRadio]

If you look at full-digital DAB in the UK, as an example, consumers are having reception problems, also:

"Why have I lost signal"

"since i got sky tv installed at home and had to move the radio to another place in the room the signal is rotten,what can i do to correct this because there is no where else i can put and cant put the tv back in its place"

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177338070

"Needs aerial, but no place to add"

"I have the Ferguson FRG-CR100.. the alarm radio with the extra stereo speaker. The problem is, the thin wire aerial is not good enough, and there is terrible "bliping"--- just as bad the the static I got on the old FM radios! I'd gladly get an better aerial, but there is nowhere to attach one. ANY ideas, please (outside of "get a better radio" which I think is going to be the solution."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176765726

"Digital Radio keeps cutting out late at night"

"I can listen to the radio all day and not experience any problems but once it approaches 11pm (sometimes 10 or 15 mins before) the radio will cut out for 2-3 seconds every couple of minutes or so. It's really irritating and impossible to listen to. I have taken the radio back to the shop I bought it in but cannot recreate the problem. I have taken their display model home to see how it fares and have exactly the same problem. It's on now (22.15) and there are no problems but within the next 45 mins it will start again. I have tried leaving it off all day and only switching it on after 11pm in case it was overheating through overuse but it still cuts out. I'm going to borrow a friends radio in the next couple of days (different make) to see what happens. Has anyone experienced this or know why it may be happening."

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168899581

Search on "reception", for yourself, and see all of the problems:

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?action=search

Consider all of the dropouts/poor reception with digital cell phones, too. I suspect, the move to digital TV is going to be a disaster. Terrestrial radio works most effectively with pure analog - digital doesn't buy anything except headaches.

 

[awj223]

If you look at full-digital DAB in the UK, as an example, consumers are having reception problems, also:

"Why have I lost signal"

"since i got sky tv installed at home and had to move the radio to another place in the room the signal is rotten,what can i do to correct this because there is no where else i can put and cant put the tv back in its place"

http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177338070

Agreed. I didn't have too much experience with analog phones, but one of the nice things was that you could always tell when the signal was going bad (e.g. walking into a building) and could stop and turn around before the call dropped. With digital, you have no clue the signal is getting marginal until it's too late. Sometimes analog fade outs are less annoying than digital drop outs. But I would argue that the mobile phone industry conversion was necessary both for capacity and security reasons. It was too easy to listen in on and clone AMPS phones. With radio, it's a public broadcast system so security doesn't matter.

Consider all of the dropouts/poor reception with digital cell phones, too. I suspect, the move to digital TV is going to be a disaster. Terrestrial radio works most effectively with pure analog - digital doesn't buy anything except headaches.

No, I think the digital TV conversion will be okay. It mainly uses frequencies that travel by line of sight, and TVs don't move. You either have a signal or you don't. If you don't, you put the antenna in the right place and it stays there. Also most people don't even use OTA reception for TV. On the other hand, radio is listened to by people when they're in motion. Pure digital radio would be great if the signal is very strong, and a disaster otherwise. Because people listen in cars, people WILL be driving behind obstacles, into areas with weaker signals.

Usually you'd promise a greater coverage area with digital, but if the signal is crappy even 10% of the time (drops out 6 seconds every minute) it might be considered unusable even if it's perfect the other 90% of the time because signals dropping out without warning are extremely annoying. On the other hand, maybe in the same area the analog signal would have some modest multipath and/or static 95% of the time but would still be listenable 100% of the time. I'd take that over a 90% perfect signal with 10% dropouts any day. So digital may not even increase range. To make matters worse, you don't even have to be moving for this to occur on AM. Skywave signals can fluctuate in strength several times per minute, but at least on analog you have warning when a station begins to fade. Most of the time, you can hear the broadcast through the times of fading because the human ear is so good at picking up speech even with a noisy signal. Even groundwave signals can be affected by interfering skywave signals.

 

[PocketRadio]

"Help receiving digital radio - DAB"

"With DAB, you may sometimes get 'bubbly' or 'underwater' noises, or the sound may break up or cut out altogether, but you will not experience the hiss, crackling, fading or station overlap that you get with FM or AM radio. The noises or break-up are usually caused by a weak signal. Try the following to strengthen the signal that your radio receives... Most DAB radios can take an external aerial – unscrew the fixed aerial and attach the cable from an external aerial in its place... DAB is less affected by interference than FM/AM radio. However, sudden interruptions, especially in regular bursts, may be caused by an electrical appliance or a faulty central heating or fridge thermostat."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/digitalradio/dab.shtml

Wonderful - sounds just like HD/IBOC ! Maybe, DAB in the UK will be another failure in the making - we can always use Canada, as a perfect example (again):

"Digital radio in Canada"

"Few recievers have been sold, and there is no interest in expanding DRB service beyond the six cities where it exists."

http://americanbandscan.blogspot.com/2006/12/digital-radio-in-canada.html

 

[Mike Walker]

The idea that any new radio technology not be backward-compatible is just nuts. Sorry, but though I'm an HD supporter, with friends like you..... It's not just an issue of old vs. new. Making analog radios obsolete is a public safety issue, for reasons that have already been discussed. The vast majority of Americans CAN'T RECEIVE DIGITAL RADIO, and at present, digital radio isn't as robust as analog under difficult reception conditions. That will leave virtually everybody with no radio service in an emergency. Backward compatibility is a no-brainer. Not to mention that I want my antique radios to continue working as long as I have a pulse!

Something better may well come along. But the FCC has closed the door. They're accepting no new proposals, so it doesn't matter if something better does come along, particularly for AM (which is truly sad!)

The transition to digital will take decades, just as it is with television (don't hold your breath for an analog switchoff on tv! I'll predict here and now that this WILL NOT HAPPEN. There WILL be yet another extension. And unlike radio, most people already get their tv from cable or satellite! Yes, in a decade or so most of us will probably listen to digital most of the time. But there will be some use of analog radios for a long, long time. I'm 48. I expect analog radio will last at least as long as I do! AND IT SHOULD!

Even if you don't care about public safety, and don't care about people who can't afford new radios, think of this...digital radio NEEDS analog as a fallback! Otherwise everytime that radio of yours blends to analog, it would instead go silent!

 

[awj223]

The idea that any new radio technology not be backward-compatible is just nuts. Sorry, but though I'm an HD supporter, with friends like you..... It's not just an issue of old vs. new. Making analog radios obsolete is a public safety issue, for reasons that have already been discussed.

I never suggested switching to pure digital NOW. I said get receivers out there now, and switch in the future. It's just that there should be no hybrid phase. At some point, analog radios will stop working. Want motivation to purchase a digital radio? How about "After the start of year 20xx, you need a new digital radio or you WILL NOT be able to hear your favorite stations!". That is, if going to digital is even the right thing to do.

The vast majority of Americans CAN'T RECEIVE DIGITAL RADIO, and at present, digital radio isn't as robust as analog under difficult reception conditions.

What is the point of even trying to go digital then? If pure digital is less robust than analog, nothing will have been gained. Just forget it. If pure digital is more robust, then maybe there's a purpose, but if hybrid is less robust than analog and destructive to adjacent channels, you might as well just ban it from the airwaves pending a decision to either switch to full digital in the future or abandon the efforts to go digital completely.

That will leave virtually everybody with no radio service in an emergency. Backward compatibility is a no-brainer. Not to mention that I want my antique radios to continue working as long as I have a pulse!

As long as backward compatibility is maintained, digital will NEVER be as robust as analog, and there isn't even a point in using it. The robustness of pure digital is still a question mark as far as I'm concerned.

Something better may well come along. But the FCC has closed the door. They're accepting no new proposals, so it doesn't matter if something better does come along, particularly for AM (which is truly sad!)

Unless consumers shut the door on this inferior hybrid digital radio, something I see unfolding as we speak.

The transition to digital will take decades, just as it is with television (don't hold your breath for an analog switchoff on tv! I'll predict here and now that this WILL NOT HAPPEN. There WILL be yet another extension.

I predict no extension. The public has been warned about this for over 5 years. Anyone who still hasn't upgraded to DTV by 2009 is just insane. At least they'll probably get converter boxes. Still ,the difference between it and NTSC is night and day. That's more than you can say about digital radio and analog radio. FM sounds pretty darn good, and AM is good enough for sports.

Yes, in a decade or so most of us will probably listen to digital most of the time. But there will be some use of analog radios for a long, long time. I'm 48. I expect analog radio will last at least as long as I do! AND IT SHOULD!

I wish you a long life. If you're telling me that I should expect to hear all the IBUZ hiss on our public airwaves for the next 50 years, just shoot all my radios now. I can't bear to listen to that annoying hiss for that long.

Even if you don't care about public safety, and don't care about people who can't afford new radios, think of this...digital radio NEEDS analog as a fallback! Otherwise everytime that radio of yours blends to analog, it would instead go silent!

Again, if you believe that in a pure digital world, receivers will go silent where analog receivers of today are still listenable, then you shouldn't be supporting digital radio AT ALL. Nothing is gained from going from a more robust system to a less robust one.

 

[Mike Walker]

Answering your question awj, the point of going digital isn't to eliminate analog anytime soon, or take away people's choices. Turning perhaps a billion radios which work just fine (thank you very much) into door stops doesn't benefit anyone, but it hurts many. Digital is undoubtedly the future, and future developments will no doubt take us further down the road to a future where all information is delivered as binary code. But with 99.99999999 percent of listening done on analog radios, why on Earth would we even consider turning off any analog transmitter anywhere at this moment? Especially since digital receivers BENEFIT from the often more robust analog signal as a "fallback"?

Bring on the digital. The benefits are numerous and obvious. But don't kill analog just because it's not cool anymore. I love the internet, and get lots of information here. But the anyone will admit that much of what passes for "news" on the internet is actually just opinion, and is presented to further someone's agenda, not to educate. So I'll still read things on the 'net, but I'll never cancel my subscription to newspapers and magazines like Newsweek, because I TRUST THEM. With a 5 megabit internet connection, I can download the equivalent of many volumes of literature in a few seconds. Does that keep me from picking up a book when I want to READ? NO WAY!

Digital offers more. More variety. Potentially more quality. More choice. But more ain't necessarily better. Sometimes analog still works better...emergency situations for instance. If I had my way, analog television wouldn't be turned off (yet) either. It's just not time yet. Too many people rely on the legacy (analog) technology still...for television as well as radio (obviously digital tv is far more common these days than terrestrial digital radio...but radio is probably as far along as tv was eight years or so ago when digital tv was young(er).

 

[Board Editor]

Some posts in this topic have been moved to National TV.

[iurl=http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=69552.0]http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=69552.0[/iurl]

 

[Mike Walker]

Geez, I didn't mean to start a whole thing on tv. I was just using it as an example. Digital is the future, but we live in the present. Analog still has a very prominent place.

 

[awj223]

...But with 99.99999999 percent of listening done on analog radios, why on Earth would we even consider turning off any analog transmitter anywhere at this moment? Especially since digital receivers BENEFIT from the often more robust analog signal as a "fallback"?
...
Digital offers more. More variety. Potentially more quality. More choice. But more ain't necessarily better. Sometimes analog still works better...emergency situations for instance. If I had my way, analog television wouldn't be turned off (yet) either. It's just not time yet. Too many people rely on the legacy (analog) technology still...for television as well as radio (obviously digital tv is far more common these days than terrestrial digital radio...but radio is probably as far along as tv was eight years or so ago when digital tv was young(er).

People are generally stubborn. There will always be a group that won't upgrade their obsolete equipment because "it still works and i don't need all the new bells and whistles." If you don't set deadlines and pull the plug, you'll never achieve the goal of converting the system to a newer technology. There are still a group of people who carry their AMPS bag phones around. The plug is being pulled in February 2008. There are still people watching TVs that can't receive digital signals. The plug is being pulled on that in 2009. At some point, you have to assume that anyone who hasn't upgraded hasn't done so because it's just not worth it to them. If they cared, they'd upgrade. If not, well, the world can't wait for technological stragglers forever.

I agree that radio isn't anywhere near the point where we should kill analog. However, that doesn't explain why we can't set an analog sunset deadline and put digital capabilities into all receivers sold starting now. That doesn't explain why we need to use a hybrid digital mode that is inferior in digital and destructive to analog. If all receivers sold in the 5-10 years leading up to a sunset deadline are digital capable, then we can just throw the switch and most people will get the benefits of digital overnight, without the hiss and adjacent-channel interference leading up to the transition.

But anyway, some people are just stubborn, and won't act until affected by deadlines. Set one and stick to it, or this isn't going to happen. Hybrid mode is destructive and completely unnecessary if the deadlines and capabilities of receivers are managed properly in the years leading up to the sunset. So far the FCC has done nothing to help us get the benefits of digital. They have only allowed the destruction of the public airwaves with digital hash from a system inferior to both pure digital and pure analog.

 

[Mike Walker]

I'm sorry, but I'm all for the government choosing technical standards. It's why we have the freakin' FCC (imho, that's about all they should do...license stations, create technical rules, and enforce them). But as for when old technology dies, I think that should be entirely a marketplace decision.

It isn't "stubbornness" when an 80 year old person on a fixed income doesn't want to be forced to buy a new tv when the old one works just fine. If they're happy with the service, and the station is happy to serve them, and that station is also sending a digital signal as mandated, here's a message for the government: BUT THE HELL OUT! I may be a Democrat, but I'm quite conservative when it comes to getting the government the hell out of or lives, and our markets!