Why Do KOA and WWL Show-Up On DX'er Catch Lists So Frequently?

[Wthom100]

I am a newbie to the DX world so forgive what perhaps might seem like a dumb question:

I notice that KOA and WWL show-up a lot on DX'er lists of stations received in many other parts of the country (including sometimes the east coast!). Other than the obvious reason that these are 50k watt flame-thrower stations, I am interested in understanding the technical reasons why these stations propogate so well.

KOA - is it because their antenna is located-up high in the mountains (i.e. at least a "mile high")? I can imagine the KOA signal blasting down off the mountains and raining-down onto the great plains of the U.S. and beyond.

WWL - is it because they are located in a flat plain with a good ground wave that travels up through the interior of the country?

By the way I live about 25 miles north of the another historically frequent DX catch - THE BIG 8 - C K L W - THE MOTOR CITY (as sung by the Johnny Mann singers) -- (20-20 news with Grant Hudson!! / Brother Bill Gable, "Super Max" Kinkle).

Great discussion board - very interesting.

Thx's 8)

 

[gar hi]

Hi and welcome.

I guess those two stations are mentioned so much because they can be picked up in virtually the entire lower 48 and even beyond. Let's not forget WLS. Back in the days when the frequencies weren't so jammed, I could hear that when I visited Northern California any night and it came in as good as I got it in New Jersey. CKLW was one of the first stations I ever DXed growing up in Jersey in the early 70s. I remember they played some of the best top 40 on the dial and it came in booming loud most nights. The then WKBW Buffalo 1520 was another one of my favorites and I can swear that I heard that sometimes even during the day in winter from outside of Philly.

 

[fybush]

KOA and WWL are among the last few stations that are still easily possible from coast to coast for a couple of reasons:

One, because for a variety of regulatory reasons, their frequencies have remained relatively clear. Most of the clear-channel frequencies on the east coast and into the midwest were "broken down" in the sixties, when the FCC created the "class II" signals out west. So where everyone from WNBC on 660 to KMOX on 1120 once had their channels to themselves, coast-to-coast, at night, there are now 50 kW signals on those same channels in the west at night, using directional antennas to protect the "class I-A" co-channel signals.

WWL and KOA didn't get duplicated that way because there were older stations on the east and west coasts that had already broken down their channels - but in ways that were less destructive. The other "big" signals on 850 are all on the edges of the country - Boston, Norfolk, more recently West Palm and Cleveland - with directional patterns aiming all their signal out of the US at night, and leaving things pretty clear for KOA. As for 870, it too was duplicated in fairly non-destructive ways - highly-directional, fairly low-powered night signals in LA, Pasco WA, Ithaca NY and up in Maine.

WWL also benefits from a directional antenna system that concentrates its power inland, giving it a stronger effective signal to the north than a typical 50 kW station would enjoy.

KOA doesn't get any particular benefit from its height - skywave doesn't really work that way.

(A few other class I-A clear channels that were not duplicated in the 1960s breakdown were 640, where lower-powered stations were already sharing the channel with KFI in Iowa, Oklahoma and Ohio, and 1200, which was subsequently broken down by a slew of new stations on the east and west coasts in the 1980s.)

 

[BobOnTheJob]

WWL benefits from a directional antenna system that concentrates its power inland, giving it a stronger effective signal to the north than a typical 50 kW station would enjoy.

I learn something new every day...and today's gem is that WWL is directional. Do they protect anyone or did they just wish to not waste RF serving fish 'n ships?

 

[fybush]

WWL benefits from a directional antenna system that concentrates its power inland, giving it a stronger effective signal to the north than a typical 50 kW station would enjoy.

I learn something new every day...and today's gem is that WWL is directional. Do they protect anyone or did they just wish to not waste RF serving fish 'n ships?

The latter - and it's the same situation at WBZ. Either station could go ND tomorrow if it wanted to; there are no protection requirements (and hence no monitoring points, which has confused generations of FCC inspectors viewing WBZ's engineering logs!), but there's no reason to.

Both WBZ and WWL are very simple two-tower cardioid arrays - one shallow null out to sea, one big fat lobe over land.

Two other stations have experimented with "optional" DAs - WTAM in Cleveland and KNX in Los Angeles - but both went back to ND operation for various reasons.

 

[BRNout]

KOA doesn't get any particular benefit from its height - skywave doesn't really work that way.

To piggyback on Scott's fine (as always) explanation, I just wanted to add that KOA's transmitter site is actually located in Parker - a suburb to the southeast of Denver. That places it on the high plains and away from the mountains, which is much better for MW (AM) frequency waves that tend to follow the curve of the earth when the ground conductivity allows. This "groundwave" signal is stable and is good for listening day and night (locally). At night, the signal which goes beyond the horizon bounces off the ionosphere and ends up coming back to earth hundreds or even thousands of miles away. That's known as skywave and it often fades in and out, depending on the height and behavior of the layers in the Earth's electrically charged ionosphere.

In KOA's case, the high plains of Colorado have very good ground conductivity so they put the transmitter site in an area where it is able to take advantage of this and to blanket the entire Front Range (including Colorado Springs, Ft. Collins and even Pueblo) with an excellent daytime signal.

The elevation of the tower location really doesn't matter when it comes to AM broadcasting. Which is why you ended up putting KOA and WWL in the same category. Which they are, though I would say that WWL has the wider range of the two. WKNR in Cleveland really limits KOA to the east now.

Now FM, where the signal travels in a straight line and line-of-sight is king, is a different story. That's why the Denver FMs generally place their transmitters in the foothills (like on Lookout Mountain) from which they can "see" the entire Denver area.

 

[gar hi]

The latter - and it's the same situation at WBZ. Either station could go ND tomorrow if it wanted to; there are no protection requirements (and hence no monitoring points, which has confused generations of FCC inspectors viewing WBZ's engineering logs!), but there's no reason to.

Both WBZ and WWL are very simple two-tower cardioid arrays - one shallow null out to sea, one big fat lobe over land.

Two other stations have experimented with "optional" DAs - WTAM in Cleveland and KNX in Los Angeles - but both went back to ND operation for various reasons.

Maybe someone can confrim or correct me but didn't WWL used to be non directional? I remember hearing that in New Jersey when I first started DXing in the 70s and I also heard it out in California. Speaking of WBZ, I remember being able to get a pretty good signal from them at the Jersey Shore (Long Beach Island) in the middle of the day.


I'm also wondering if KYW in Philadelphia changed their directional pattern because I was always able to get that down here in Tampa at night when I first moved down here 25 years ago but I haven't heard a peep from it since I re-discovered DXing lately. I can get some religious station on 1060 which I think is from Dallas but not a sign of KYW. Also, it seems some stations changed their power too. Our WDAE (formally WSUN) I thought used to be 10 or even 20 kw but the latest station guide has them listed at some odd number that's much lower. I thought too that WIOD Miami used to be 10kw but it's now 5kw. I remember hearing them at night here in Tampa when I first moved down here but I can't seem to hear them now. Maybe that's a result of a directional change too? Where I'm located, 620 WDAE doesn't interfere when I have the radio turned in just the right direction.

 

[kudzooter]

Gar fla, believe your religious station on 1060 is WNOE, New Orleans. Back in the '70s when I worked down the hall at their FM, they were 50kw D, and a very tight nighttime DA with only 5kw -- but that night signal BLASTED off that south Louisiana swamp. I remember back to my college days, 1958-'59, driving from University of Tulsa down highway 62/64 to Stuttgart AR, NOE would come in on our car radio like it was in the town we'd just passed through.
"The Swamp Angel DXer"

 

[radioman148]

In the 60s & early 70s WNOE used to come in great in the Chicago area in the fall & winter months in the late afternoon before they powered down to 5KW at sunset in N.O. Once they powered down we'd get KYW and WNOE would totally disappear.

 

[jd]

To shed a little more light on reception of 1060 from New Orleans: WLNO, the former WNOE, still has the same pattern. Daytime is oriented with the center of the major lobe at due north; it's a cardioid pattern that's fat and slightly fattened out to favor the east and west as well. A relatively minor lobe points due south, from the transmitter site south of New Orleans. At night it's entirely different with most of their 5kW concentrated into a tight lobe pointing northwest: 305 degrees to be exact, as mentioned by the station's chief engineer on a WNOE QSL card I got back in the '60's when I lived near Dallas.

 

[K4WRF]

WWL benefits from a directional antenna system that concentrates its power inland, giving it a stronger effective signal to the north than a typical 50 kW station would enjoy.

I learn something new every day...and today's gem is that WWL is directional. Do they protect anyone or did they just wish to not waste RF serving fish 'n ships?

The latter - and it's the same situation at WBZ. Either station could go ND tomorrow if it wanted to; there are no protection requirements (and hence no monitoring points, which has confused generations of FCC inspectors viewing WBZ's engineering logs!), but there's no reason to.

Both WBZ and WWL are very simple two-tower cardioid arrays - one shallow null out to sea, one big fat lobe over land.

Two other stations have experimented with "optional" DAs - WTAM in Cleveland and KNX in Los Angeles - but both went back to ND operation for various reasons.

WWL now has a limit as the result some station being moved in behind them. This limited night power at their aux non-directional site. WWL has used a directinal antenna sense the late 1930's even when they were on 850 before the realignment in 1941. WBZ started using theirs when they moved to Hull in 1940. I remember visiting the WWL transmitter site at the very end of Williams Ave right next to the lake in the 50's. They left there in 1975 for the swamp near Estell, outside the levy district. Bad place for towers, bad place for people but good place to launch AM signal. Keeps the alligators and water moccasans warm and BIG..

w/

 

[radioman148]

I believe AM 660 WNBC in NYC used a directional array from Port Washington Long Island previous to 1963.
I remember reading that the reason that they moved to the WCBS non dirctional site was because of the greater amount of people that were moving out east on Long Island.
Anyone else remember this?

 

[Steve_Green]

From 540, you have to go a tenth of the way through the dial before finding a USA 'Clear' 50,000 watt channel. Although neither KOA nor WWL is at the prime end of the dial for reception, who is? Both stations are fairly well situated as far as wavelengths go.

Someone on another radio forum was reporting good WWL reception during Hurricane Katrina, and I'd asked if they would have covered more people by going omni. It would have taken a phone call -- if that. But I got corrected by someone who observed that WWL would've had its somewhat pronounced coverage of the Gulf states pulled in. (Incidentally, WWL's null to the ESE was what probably made WHOA San Juan a 'do'. WHOA was an English-speaking station that came in quite nicely on water-path to Long Island when WWL was off).

To further answer Wthom's question : Seemingly every nighttime signal on 850 sends the bulk of their power out to sea (or over a Great Lake or two). The proverbial coast is clear for KOA to reach more of the actual land where radios are. As a mostly retired and casual DXer now, I haven't heard Johnstown PA on 850 -- my own state -- yet have heard CT, Cleveland, KOA, upstate NY, Norfolk, etc. Word always was that the old WJAC Johnstown had a signal that was a thousand miles long and fifteen feet wide.

And from nearly the geographical foundation of the country's geography, so to speak, WWL *does* send its nighttime signal in a pattern that is shaped like the actual United States ... longer side to side than high. It is somewhat ironic that one of WWL's nulls represented the landfall of Katrina, but such is fate.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

WWL remained a critical outlet for News and info element during Katrina,, both to the locals, as well as the evacuated people up north... IDK if its true or not, but I heard that during Katrina WWL was allowed to boost its signal up quite a bit,, I think it was one of the only stations in New orleans that didnt get knocked off the air during Katrina...

I dont know if it was a power boost, or the Hurricane had something to do with it, but I was able to pick up WWL in Indianapolis Indiana at high noon during Katrina, and I was glued to WWL and the weather channel during that time... BTW,, in normal conditions WWL is dead static during the day here, but it does boom in very loud and reliable at night.

I also get KOA here every night despite being close to the 850 in Chicago and Saint Louis... I even once heard KOA at Myrtle Beach South Carolina,, right on the Atlantic,, it was faint and hard to hear, but definately there,, I listened for the TOH ID to make sure it was KOA, and also heard mentions of the Denver Broncos and a commercial for some place called Rocky Mountain Lodge.. How far would Denver be from Myrtle Beach,, I know its like Forever away...

 

[JohnW]

Re: WJAC...etc

FWIW, WJAC/WODZ/WSPO/WLYE/WNTJ/and currently known as WKGE uses a 9 (count 'em nine) tower array to protect everybody else on 850.

Here's the FCC plot: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/305502-3027.pdf

 

[K4WRF]

WWL remained a critical outlet for News and info element during Katrina,, both to the locals, as well as the evacuated people up north... IDK if its true or not, but I heard that during Katrina WWL was allowed to boost its signal up quite a bit,, I think it was one of the only stations in New orleans that didnt get knocked off the air during Katrina...

I dont know if it was a power boost, or the Hurricane had something to do with it, but I was able to pick up WWL in Indianapolis Indiana at high noon during Katrina, and I was glued to WWL and the weather channel during that time... BTW,, in normal conditions WWL is dead static during the day here, but it does boom in very loud and reliable at night.

There is no provision at WWL to operate at a power level greator than the 50kW(nominal) U.S. maximum and there is no advantage to them operating non-directionally from that site.

w/

 

[BRNout]

I also get KOA here every night despite being close to the 850 in Chicago and Saint Louis...

OK, WAIT in Round Lake, IL and KFUO Clayton/St. Louis are both daytimers. Neither should be interfering with KOA at night. I like within 20 miles of WAIT's transmitter and get KOA every night too - once WAIT powers down.

No, the main reception issue for skywave of KOA in the northeastern quadrant of the US (from Cleveland eastward) is WKNR. Despite having most of it's energy aimed "outward," it still sends quite a bit of signal to the east and east-southeast. Enough so that you can usually listen to games on it at night in eastern PA. WEEI pretty much knocks KOA out in the eastern half of New England, though it's only strong in easternmost MA, SE NH and Maine. However, you can still hear it faintly at night in the null and I have copied it (albeit weakly) at 11 pm from places like Albany and central CT.

All that being said, WWL and KOA are the only 2 stations that I've heard from both coasts. WWL seems to have an easier time of it; KOA is a tough catch along most of the east coast and rarely booms in to the west coast anymore either. Though you can get it there most nights.

 

[Icangelp]

I live in southwest Ohio & I hear KOA on a regular basis during the transition time we all call "skip". Don't get a chance to DX in the true nighttime, but I assume they are there. I don't recall KOA being so reliable a catch twenty years ago.

WWL's signal has not been very good lately, the same with WLAC, and I don't know why.

 

[w9wi]

All that being said, WWL and KOA are the only 2 stations that I've heard from both coasts.

I suggest this is why these two stations are the ones that show up most frequently. For DXers on either coast, they're the two stations that are most likely to be the most distant stations in a new DXer's log.