Why do progressive groups do this? Has it ever worked?

[smedge2006]

It is certainly plausible that an a.e. is turning away business for the tiny progressive talker. For one thing, their budget may be set according to performance on the bigger stations. For another thing, they might not want to antagonize their conservative-talk-radio-loving boss by spending too much time and effort on it. For a third thing, if the just-starting-out-tiny-AM is commanding single-digit rates per spot, it may seem like dollars' worth of effort to chase pennies.

This is one reason why we need a "middle class" in radio ownership again. Small enough to try new things the big boys aren't doing; big enough not to collapse as a business if it takes awhile to make something work. I think "middle level" owners and stations would serve as a better incubator for this format than either the throwaway Class C's owned by clusters or the throwaway Class D's owned (and sometimes leased out by) hand-to-mouth operators.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

Sorry, Dale, this isn't BS. I spoke with a gentleman from Bernard Media, which is leasing the frequency to GM Gary Richards and the people behind making the station progressive talk. He told me the same thing when I visited the studios.

Yes and that still doesn't make it so. No one in this industry, who is trying to succeed financially turns down revenue. There are sales people who hate rap or country who still sell it.

Bernard Media got the ownership rights to WVKO AM and FM in a bankruptcy hearing.

Yep.

Just to give you an idea of how Clear Channel operated regarding the format flips:

My rep in Columbus, Jennifer Tonapi, was on pregnancy leave when the wheels were put in motion regarding AM 1230. She left the company shortly after her return.

And my rep in Akron, Brandon Tidd, was in New York receiving a major award at the time the decision was made to flip Radio Free Ohio.

Neither station was listed in the recent Arbitron numbers.

So?

I need to remind you, Dale, that I am the one buying the advertising time. If you would like to get into a p-ssing match with an advertiser, then be my guest. But I am telling you that was exactly what the gentleman representing the new owners told me directly.

I will say this: Based on your reaction to some of my postings previously, I would never buy advertising on your station. Your listeners would likely want me to stay out of Alabama.

 

[DaleGriffin]

Sorry, Dale, this isn't BS. I spoke with a gentleman from Bernard Media, which is leasing the frequency to GM Gary Richards and the people behind making the station progressive talk. He told me the same thing when I visited the studios.

Yes and that still doesn't make it so. No one in this industry, who is trying to succeed financially turns down revenue. There are sales people who hate rap or country who still sell it.

Bernard Media got the ownership rights to WVKO AM and FM in a bankruptcy hearing.

Yep.

Just to give you an idea of how Clear Channel operated regarding the format flips:

My rep in Columbus, Jennifer Tonapi, was on pregnancy leave when the wheels were put in motion regarding AM 1230. She left the company shortly after her return.

And my rep in Akron, Brandon Tidd, was in New York receiving a major award at the time the decision was made to flip Radio Free Ohio.

Neither station was listed in the recent Arbitron numbers.

So?

I need to remind you, Dale, that I am the one buying the advertising time. If you would like to get into a p-ssing match with an advertiser, then be my guest. But I am telling you that was exactly what the gentleman representing the new owners told me directly.

I will say this: Based on your reaction to some of my postings previously, I would never buy advertising on your station. Your listeners would likely want me to stay out of Alabama.

Let's try to keep a few things in mind here Sean,

1. I am skeptical that of what is being said here, that is all.
2. I started this post and offered the group involved real help not pipe dreams.

What posts are you refering to? Why would my listeners want you to stay out of Alabama?

 

[SeanMGilbow]

OK, I at least owe you some answers since you've toned down to some extent.

With regard to our actual exchanges, one of your more memorable responses was on October 27 in the thread regarding Ed Schultz and Phil Boyce, in which I referred to Phil's pomposity, to which you replied:

"You make it easy for him to be pompous when you are so constantly and ridiculously wrong."

Granted, this banter (for lack of a better term) took place when I didn't have a financial stake in WVKO. As part of my commitment through 2008, I am about to make an ad buy of between $600 and $1,000. I have to get with the General Manager on when the campaign will start.

Having said that...I just visited your station's website and caught this item, which will help answer the second question:

MLKday is here, so it's time for an idiot to paint all of Alabama as racist and backwards.

I would not paint such a picture of Alabama, but I would play the skeptic about listeners to your station wanting to buy from a business person who is openly gay.

 

[DaleGriffin]

OK, I at least owe you some answers since you've toned down to some extent.

Allow me to ratchet it up a bit for you...

With regard to our actual exchanges, one of your more memorable responses was on October 27 in the thread regarding Ed Schultz and Phil Boyce, in which I referred to Phil's pomposity, to which you replied:

"You make it easy for him to be pompous when you are so constantly and ridiculously wrong."

He was talking business and you were talking pipe dreams, you were and still are wrong.

Granted, this banter (for lack of a better term) took place when I didn't have a financial stake in WVKO. As part of my commitment through 2008, I am about to make an ad buy of between $600 and $1,000. I have to get with the General Manager on when the campaign will start.

Good I hope it works for you and other stations are able to see it is commercially viable. What this has to do with this conversation is beyond me.

Having said that...I just visited your station's website and caught this item, which will help answer the second question:

MLKday is here, so it's time for an idiot to paint all of Alabama as racist and backwards.

I would not paint such a picture of Alabama, but I would play the skeptic about listeners to your station wanting to buy from a business person who is openly gay.

Did you read the article? No clearly you did not, if you did you would see that article was indeed stupid. So you come in here half cocked and now you say that that my listeners won't buy from you cause your gay? Based on what... abso-f@#$ing-lutely nothing. It is a weak cheap shot meant to marginalize me by implying I live in the boonies. [EDIT]

Yes I have been blunt on these boards but never ever unfair. I say who I am and if I have a criticism I explain why. I don't post heresay as fact and if anything I have made it clear I want your precious progressive talk to succeed. GOING AS FAR AS REACHING OUT TO A GROUP THAT TRIED TO HURT ME TWICE TO DO IT. You are so far out of line here Sean I am embarrassed for you.


[EDIT-inflammatory]

 

[ropertex]

True. The station mgmt and the sales reps are going to push the product with the highest profit and commissions. Every go to a new car dealer and
try to get a salesman to help you with that $2000 used car on the lot?

 

[ABQTom]

"Station: Hello, Supercombo Radio
Business: Yes, I heard you have a progressive talk station and I'd like to advertise on it...
Station: We have WHAT? Who? Hold on please....
(music on hold)
Station Salesperson: Hello
Business: Yes, I'm a business owner and I'd like to advertise on your progressive talk station.
Salesperson: What? No... see... we don't really push that... it's got a really small audience... and you can't hear it past the end of the block (and my commission on it sucks)... here you need to try our conservative talk station... and if you want liberals you can reach them through all our FM music stations...At least one business person swears something like this happened to him in Columbus OH... "


This is absolutely ridiculous and I don't believe it's true. I don't buy any of these stories from Columbus or from Ed Schultz. No station would reject revenue, liberal or conservative. Even if a station had a weak signal, they would still sell ads. For example in Albuquerque, 50kW KKOB's sister station 1050 KTBL at 1kW runs a lot of the same commercials as KKOB.

The ONLY theory, that probably IS true, is that the owners and VP's of the major networks tend to be conservative, and as a result, you have carbon copy program schedules of Rush, Hannity, Levin, Savage all on the same stations.

And, what is also true, is that Air America doesn't sell. Many of the AAR hosts are NYC liberal elitists who ARE TOO PREACHY. Once you get into medium sized markets, they don't sell (except Albuquerque, which is liberal).

How can Air America make it if they can't get into stations in Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Nebraska, Kansas, etc.?

And, it's possible the companies could give more attention...from the corporate level...to improving the signal patterns of underperforming progressive talk stations. On the other hand, KING 1090 Seattle (CBS) just filed an APP with the FCC to cover what KIRO covers during the day. And, KPOJ 620 in Portland in 2005 constructed three new towers for KEX/KPOJ and raised 620 power too 25kWday/10kW/night.

It's also possible that the major companies don't give the stations enough money for hiring local hosts and promotions. Why? Could be that the signals aren't good enough or that Air America ratings are so terrible that few people want to advertise.....

The answer is more syndicated liberal AND CENTRIST hosts to compete IN THE SAME TIME SLOTS AS HARTMANN, RHODES, AND SCHULTZ but nobody wants to do this:

Erin Hart

Jay Diamond

Jay Marvin

Turi Ryder

Karel (pending contractual issues with Citadel)

Bryan Styble

Arnie Arnesen

Enid Goldstein

Ernie Brown (pending contractual issues...)

Christine Craft

Bob Brinker (pending contractual issues with Citadel)

 

[SeanMGilbow]

There's a little more to the Columbus scenario. This was posted on the Columbus boards by another member with whom I've had some disagreements, but not to the extent as what you've read here:

I gave a couple of guys in that building a revenue generating, home run idea that would have increased the web traffic to WYTS 10 fold and guess what?... They said um, we can't make that happen. That station is on auto pilot and they just don't care about it. So I gave the idea to one of my buddies that works at another station and he implemented it. Guess what? Yep.

Simply put...it doesn't matter what format was on there. The goal was to get advertisers to buy on the big stations Clear Channel was trying to protect. When the ratings for progressive talk were better than the previous formats, it apparently was threatening WTVN.

The stations which had progressive talk in Columbus, Akron and Cincinnati are not listed in the Arbitron books. Mission accomplished.

As for WVKO...Air America is not being marketed. The three talkers getting the station's attention, aside from the local guy who started last week (Mike Cole) are Bill Press, Stephanie Miller and Ed Schultz, all syndicated by Jones. Any local commercials are being focused on these shows.

By the way, I did wait a while to post a reply deliberately. I figured responding to the reaction to my previous post here would be counterproductive. I did see the post before the Managing Board Editor removed some of the content, and I felt there was no need to comment further upon seeing the edits.

 

[DaleGriffin]

There's a little more to the Columbus scenario. This was posted on the Columbus boards by another member with whom I've had some disagreements, but not to the extent as what you've read here:

I gave a couple of guys in that building a revenue generating, home run idea that would have increased the web traffic to WYTS 10 fold and guess what?... They said um, we can't make that happen. That station is on auto pilot and they just don't care about it. So I gave the idea to one of my buddies that works at another station and he implemented it. Guess what? Yep.

Simply put...it doesn't matter what format was on there. The goal was to get advertisers to buy on the big stations Clear Channel was trying to protect. When the ratings for progressive talk were better than the previous formats, it apparently was threatening WTVN.

The stations which had progressive talk in Columbus, Akron and Cincinnati are not listed in the Arbitron books. Mission accomplished.

As for WVKO...Air America is not being marketed. The three talkers getting the station's attention, aside from the local guy who started last week (Mike Cole) are Bill Press, Stephanie Miller and Ed Schultz, all syndicated by Jones. Any local commercials are being focused on these shows.

By the way, I did wait a while to post a reply deliberately. I figured responding to the reaction to my previous post here would be counterproductive. I did see the post before the Managing Board Editor removed some of the content, and I felt there was no need to comment further upon seeing the edits.

Yeah if I were you I would leave that alone too.

 

[Nate Wesley]

1. I am skeptical that of what is being said here, that is all.
2. I started this post and offered the group involved real help not pipe dreams.

Noting your own experience in commercial media, "real help" might involve suggestions of how the group might best go about getting their goals accomplished--including proposing alternatives to their most difficult or unrealistic aims. I'm not sure taking all of their ideas and essentially saying "FAIL, nobody will watch nor listen" is what they're looking for.

And after reading further, it seems you only agreed to 'help' them by making a spectacle of their ideas to your audience. I won't say you deserved any grief they gave you afterwards, but perhaps your suggestions would have been best left off the air. They probably resent their efforts being reduced to talk radio fodder.

 

[jaymarvin]

Thanks for the mention of my name but I'm don't care about any kind of national show. In fact I'm sick and tired of right vs left talk radio. If there were someone out there doing something else I sure would like to find them. Talk radio as it stands now just plain sucks in most cases. My guess is after the 08 election cycle AAR is DOA. Because what are 99% of the hosts going to do when there's no more Bush to kick around. Plus the various sugar dads who have kept the thing alive will turn to other things if a Dem gets into the White House. AAR is a disgrace.

 

[DaleGriffin]

1. I am skeptical that of what is being said here, that is all.
2. I started this post and offered the group involved real help not pipe dreams.

Noting your own experience in commercial media, "real help" might involve suggestions of how the group might best go about getting their goals accomplished--including proposing alternatives to their most difficult or unrealistic aims. I'm not sure taking all of their ideas and essentially saying "FAIL, nobody will watch nor listen" is what they're looking for.

And after reading further, it seems you only agreed to 'help' them by making a spectacle of their ideas to your audience. I won't say you deserved any grief they gave you afterwards, but perhaps your suggestions would have been best left off the air. They probably resent their efforts being reduced to talk radio fodder.

Gotta remember though, I made the offer to them THEN they went on the attack and targeted my clients. I was contacted by some clients and that is when I went after them and made it part of the show.

 

[ABQTom]

"As for WVKO...Air America is not being marketed. The three talkers getting the station's attention, aside from the local guy who started last week (Mike Cole) are Bill Press, Stephanie Miller and Ed Schultz, all syndicated by Jones. Any local commercials are being focused on these shows."



WHY?! Standard protocol is to run promos for *ALL* your hosts, 24/7, even including Bob Brinker on weekends, and even including one hour brokered programming like "Rock and Roll Real Estate."

Incredible.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

"As for WVKO...Air America is not being marketed. The three talkers getting the station's attention, aside from the local guy who started last week (Mike Cole) are Bill Press, Stephanie Miller and Ed Schultz, all syndicated by Jones. Any local commercials are being focused on these shows."



WHY?! Standard protocol is to run promos for *ALL* your hosts, 24/7, even including Bob Brinker on weekends, and even including one hour brokered programming like "Rock and Roll Real Estate."

Incredible.

Tom...Clear Channel didn't even do that much with its progressive talk station.

Having said that...I am an advertiser on the station. I have nothing to do with station operations. Should you desire to make your thoughts known to the General Manager, there is a message board at wvko1580.com.

Keep in mind, Tom, that there has been some criticism expressed on the Columbus board about operational matters. Nonetheless, the station is getting listeners from a cross-section of the population, as indicated by the calls into Mike Cole's show. What works in Columbus may not necessarily be what works in Albuqueque, and I would rather leave the issues involved in getting the station on the air to the the principal parties involved.

But I will also say this...In spite of my having disagreements with some members of Ohio Majority Radio, the group which helped get WVKO up and running, those same members would be more than delighted to lend support to the North Alabama Media Reform group once they find out what Dale Jackson really said about me.

 

[DaleGriffin]

But I will also say this...In spite of my having disagreements with some members of Ohio Majority Radio, the group which helped get WVKO up and running, those same members would be more than delighted to lend support to the North Alabama Media Reform group once they find out what Dale Jackson really said about me.

And what is it that I really said?

 

[ABQTom]

Sean wrote:

"Having said that...I am an advertiser on the station. I have nothing to do with station operations. Should you desire to make your thoughts known to the General Manager, there is a message board"

I have no interest in discussing how you promo shows with your manager. I just think it's strange to only promote Ed,Steph, and Bill. If it works for you and you get advertisers and ratings then more power to you!

Sean wrote:
"Keep in mind, Tom, that there has been some criticism expressed on the Columbus board about operational matters. Nonetheless, the station is getting listeners from a cross-section of the population, as indicated by the calls into Mike Cole's show."

Great! Keep up the good work!

Sean wrote:
"What works in Columbus may not necessarily be what works in Albuqueque"

Of course, absolutely. Different markets entirely. Although I know ABQ progressive PD's, I'm not employed by any Albuquerque station, and I certainly can't speak for any of them here.

Sean wrote:
"But I will also say this...In spite of my having disagreements with some members of Ohio Majority Radio, the group which helped get WVKO up and running, those same members would be more than delighted to lend support to the North Alabama Media Reform group once they find out what Dale Jackson really said about me."

I don't anything about what you are talking about here, and I don't know anything about Ohio Majority Radio. Sounds from your posts that there's some infighting going on, but that's just part of the territory in this volatile biz. I think WVKO will work in your market, as you have high creative class and Bohemian scores (Dr. Richard Florida).

 

[DaleGriffin]

Sean, please answer my question.

But I will also say this...In spite of my having disagreements with some members of Ohio Majority Radio, the group which helped get WVKO up and running, those same members would be more than delighted to lend support to the North Alabama Media Reform group once they find out what Dale Jackson really said about me.

And what is it that I really said?

 

[FreddyE1977]

It was a tactic that was preached to activists and organizers by
Saul Alinsky in the 1960's. It worked beautifully for a time, but has
lost it's punch over the years. I guess for some people old habits
die hard.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

But I will also say this...In spite of my having disagreements with some members of Ohio Majority Radio, the group which helped get WVKO up and running, those same members would be more than delighted to lend support to the North Alabama Media Reform group once they find out what Dale Jackson really said about me.

And what is it that I really said?

You will find that response here:

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,92039.msg704018.html#msg704018

 

[DaleGriffin]

Actually you will not find it there, just answer the question... WHAT DID I SAY TO YOU?