why do they ignore serving this audiance

[RunWithScissors]

Last night I visited the Deptford mall and was shocked at the thousands and thousands of people, all ages wearing Heavy Metal, Punk, Rock and dressing in Gothic style clothing. Most malls with the exception of the Gallery have this clientel hanging out, but this mall took the ribbon. I always thought that was a Rap heavy area but not so. I inquired a few of the rockers what station they listen to and they all said XM/Sirius or CD's, no station catered to them, they also stated if a station flipped to this format they would flock and embrace it. These people are into this music with virtually no artist airplay from the racist Philly radio dial and the racist owners and programmers. I was under the impression radio was to service all the people, not a certain race and a certain ethnic group who refuse to learn what it is to be an American, so we have to satisfy them in their own tongue. If this is going on in the Deptford area, it must be going on in all areas, the Rock audiance is flouishing and no one is serving their needs. I think people are tired of all this urban messings on every music cable channel and all over the airwaves how much can one take of this. They constantly complain on the Boston board about not enough urban, but I guess that is OK when its for them, how about all the garbage on the airwaves in Philly, should we complain. U BET!!!

 

[Captain Obvious]

You make such a great point about this. But I think now, your just preaching to the choir...

No one understands.

Anymore it is "You will listen to what they play and you will like it."

 

[buzzrock]

Internet radio/CDs are better than most of Philly radio.

 

[Tom Wells]

Same reason punk was ignored by radio 20-30 years ago for the most part. It's just that no advertisers will touch the genre.

At least when my music was dissed this way, there were real records available for sale, and some punk shows on college radio.

 

[SICKofIT]

WoW, are you ever on the money, I was just talking to a group of people that felt the same way. They all complain there is not a Real Rock Outlet to call home. I often see many people into all types of Rock but cannot hear it on the T-Dial. Its either by word of mouth, small concerts or papers, that bring them their diet of Hard Rock. Even though the movies, cable networks and bias radio formats constantly push urban music on the populas, rock still survives in all forms. As in the Heavy Metal days, of the 80's, when stations shunned away from playing it, the music exploded and became the staple of young people, in an underground sort of way. Why the powers to be won't take heed and program this music is another wonder of this great country. In other words I am sick of it....

 

[fredflintstone]

Audiance? Clientel?

The only stations playing rock are OGL and VLT. This stuff is trash music for suburban mall trash. Not better than what is played on the Urban stations, actually not much different.

Even the mall rats have satellite radio. What's stopping you?

PS: Scissors, you had lots of choices. Look at all the current office holders who didn't get sent to Viet Nam.

 

[sack]

This audience is ignored, the next generation is being ignored by radio execs who have no foresight. These are the same executives that won't program radio for anyone over 55. Think about this.

The first group is people that have given up on radio,,, because radio has given up on them.

The second group is people that grew up with radio, it was important to them, but now no one programs to them because they are not in the "Money Demo".

It seems to me, the people with the most disposable income are the under 24 group, and those over 55. Under 24,, no family to take care of,,,, over 55,, the family is gone,, its all about you! (except that one kid that will forever live in the basement).

So, 2 large segments of the population that radio does not program for. And what happens when I hit my 60s, will there be no more classic rock stations because I'm too old to buy anything (according to advertisers)? And what will they replace that classic rock station with? Nothing, because that next segment of the population doesn't care about radio and doesn't use it,,, because radio never programed for them.. They do use Satellite and internet radio, and thats where the future is, unless radio changes its attitude.

 

[LocalRadio]

why do they ignore serving this audiance

Perhaps because they can't spell?

 

[davideduardo]

The second group is people that grew up with radio, it was important to them, but now no one programs to them because they are not in the "Money Demo".

Don't blame radio. Advertisers do not use 55+, because the return on investment is perceived to be low. Radio can not change this, and can not program to 55+ if there is no advertisers upport.

It seems to me, the people with the most disposable income are the under 24 group, and those over 55. Under 24,, no family to take care of,,,,

12-17 has no discernable income. 18-24 has very low income, as people are still in school or just beginning a career. However, radio does go for 18-24 because it is a buying demo... advertisers want 18-34 as it is where life preferences are made. However, 18-24 has serious listening erosion due to video games, lifesyle issues, iPods, and all the other newer media offerings.

So, 2 large segments of the population that radio does not program for. And what happens when I hit my 60s, will there be no more classic rock stations because I'm too old to buy anything (according to advertisers)? And what will they replace that classic rock station with? Nothing, because that next segment of the population doesn't care about radio and doesn't use it,,, because radio never programed for them.. They do use Satellite and internet radio, and thats where the future is, unless radio changes its attitude.

Radio can not "make" advertisers like 12-17 or 55+. It is only possible for commercial radio to serve groups that advertisers, as well, like to sell to.

 

[fredflintstone]

This audience is ignored, the next generation is being ignored by radio execs who have no foresight. These are the same executives that won't program radio for anyone over 55. Think about this.

The first group is people that have given up on radio,,, because radio has given up on them.

The second group is people that grew up with radio, it was important to them, but now no one programs to them because they are not in the "Money Demo".

It seems to me, the people with the most disposable income are the under 24 group, and those over 55. Under 24,, no family to take care of,,,, over 55,, the family is gone,, its all about you! (except that one kid that will forever live in the basement).

So, 2 large segments of the population that radio does not program for. And what happens when I hit my 60s, will there be no more classic rock stations because I'm too old to buy anything (according to advertisers)? And what will they replace that classic rock station with? Nothing, because that next segment of the population doesn't care about radio and doesn't use it,,, because radio never programed for them.. They do use Satellite and internet radio, and thats where the future is, unless radio changes its attitude.

Oh, not again! Every few months somebody else comes along and starts repeating the great myth. And the more the myth gets repeated, the more everyone believes it.

(1) People generally have disposable income because they are not disposing of their income. Most advertisers are interested in reaching people who spend; not people who save. (Even banks are most interested in people who borrow.)

(2) Many advertisers do target Older consumers. They just don't use radio to reach them. Have you watched TV lately? Have you seen all those ads targeting older consumers (insurance, drugs, fiber supplements, cruises....)?

(3) Talk radio also skews old and - guess what? - talk radio sells ads and makes money. Just not Oldies, Standards, Classic Country and if radio is still around when Sack turns 60, Classic Rock and Classic Hits (Gen X Oldies).

(4) Most people over 50 don't listen to nostalgia formats (music you grew up with). You can do better reaching 50+ consumers on AC (and get the money demos, too).

You say you are production director. Maybe you should talk to your sales reps more. Stations program what they can sell and make money with. The radio is business is not about ratings, it's about sales.

Radio has a future because satellite and Internet audio are radio. AM (90 years old) and FM (almost 70) technologies don't have much of a future because they are obsolete technology. There are better ways to broadcast sound to people. And there are better ways to use sound to sell people. The motion picture industry is starting to use digital technology to capture moving images to show on a big screen (and a little screen). Film is obsolete. Movies are not. Same thing here. Terrestrial broadcasting is obsolete. Radio is not.

 

[PaulBWalkerJr]

RunWithScissors:

As I've said befor eon this message board and am even leanring first hand running a station now, justr becuase there may be thousands of people who like a format.. doesn't mean there is support for it.

Wether you realize it or not, when a station is going to flip format.. sales and on air staff usually figure out what will make a nice amount of money. If they feel they can get support from advertisers, that usually helps.

If you don't hear a certain kinda music on a Full time FM signal... it's USUALLY because there isn't enough support for it.

Your Friendly & Official Terrestrial Radio APologist
Friday Nights at 10pm on The Radio Racket
www.audio18.com and www.radioracket.com

 

[sack]

Was there support for progressive rock back in the late 60s/early 70s? No. Management did give the format time to develop. It did pretty well for a few years. It morphed into a real moneymaker for a while.

And how do you know there will be no support for any of the formats mentioned,, like punk? Are you using the same old consultants who just want to sell you their format in a box? Are you using research from Omaha to decide what will play in Philly, or in Miami?

There are loads of people that have found their music fix through other delivery systems,,, Satellite,,, Internet. They aren't coming back to radio unless we give them something they want. And if its a nitch format they want, why not give it to them. If managed correctly, there is no reason nitch stations can't make a profit.

Hey, let me be a dreamer,,, radio needs more of us anyway.

 

[fredflintstone]

Hey, let me be a dreamer,,, radio needs more of us anyway.

No, it already has too many already. Too much delusional and wishful thinking is why the biz is fading. This is why so few managers come from production and programming and why managers pay so little attention to them. People in production and programming are radio's equivalent of workers on the assembly line.

Obviously you paid no attention to what Eduardo and I posted. No surprise; par for the course.

 

[RunWithScissors]

Its another sad deal, when the only way you are informed about Ronnie James Dio, Tommi and Geezer, Iggy and the Stooges, Shaw/Blades and hundereds of other huge Rock bands coming to Philly; is by reading PW and the City paper. I had to laugh when hot Rock bands playing at the shore are sponsored by the Ace, ZXL and a hit music station AYV, instead of any Philly outlet mentioning or sponsoring them....the audiance is there but the suits are determined to crush any existance of this music. Just tune in MTV/VH1/MTV2/MTVH/MTV3/VH1S and MTVJ, 99-9/10th of the videos, specials and music are Rap-Hip Hop-R&B or some sort of urban racist product geared to the local thugs, heck, even VH1-Classic is getting in on the urban grove. Where is the 24 hour channel devoted to Rock/Metal/Punk and Alternative, is that asking too much, YES, when some fat, middle aged, cigar smoking, bald, white-j, suburban executive, who works in the inner city corporate office dictates what we see, hear, smell and read. If that is not true I will eat my web gear.

 

[fredflintstone]

Philly needs more hot dog restaurants. Everybody I know likes hot dogs but the only place you can get hot dogs is at the ballpark. Thousands of people come to the ballpark to eat hot dogs and the fast food business ignores them. I drove to Deptford Mall and I passed five McDonald's, three Wendy's and two Burger Kings all selling hamburgers. The hot dog audience is being ignored by the rich White hot dog-hating executives in Oak Brook, Columbus and Miami. A hot dog stand can make money. The fast food business needs more dreamers.

Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet.

All these ice cream and water ice stands around Deptford. The apple pie market is being ignored, too.

 

[sack]

Since when is it delusional to want to make something better?

I did pay attention to what Fred and Eduardo said, does that mean I can't have a differing opinion.

You obviously didn't pay attention to what I wrote either. Its that lame way of thinking, only for profit, that has made radio what it is today. Seems management doesn't want real ideas, thats why you 'Managers" all come from sales. Maybe toothpaste sales, or car sales is better for you since you obviously have no passion for radio,, only money. In my opinion its people like you that have gutted the business I loved, maybe there are too many of you?

 

[OldNumber7]

Its another sad deal, when the only way you are informed about Ronnie James Dio, Tommi and Geezer, Iggy and the Stooges, Shaw/Blades and hundereds of other huge Rock bands coming to Philly; is by reading PW and the City paper. I had to laugh when hot Rock bands playing at the shore are sponsored by the Ace, ZXL and a hit music station AYV, instead of any Philly outlet mentioning or sponsoring them....the audiance is there but the suits are determined to crush any existance of this music. Just tune in MTV/VH1/MTV2/MTVH/MTV3/VH1S and MTVJ, 99-9/10th of the videos, specials and music are Rap-Hip Hop-R&B or some sort of urban racist product geared to the local thugs, heck, even VH1-Classic is getting in on the urban grove. Where is the 24 hour channel devoted to Rock/Metal/Punk and Alternative, is that asking too much, YES, when some fat, middle aged, cigar smoking, bald, white-j, suburban executive, who works in the inner city corporate office dictates what we see, hear, smell and read. If that is not true I will eat my web gear.

Rock will become a viable format again when one of two things happens: 1) women start listening to rock in droves or 2) men begin making most/all of the household purchasing decisions -- a job guys usually run away from. Rock is a male format in a feminized culture. You could be number 1 in men and advertisers wouldn't care because men don't make nearly as many purchasing decisions as women do. And women, unlike men, are more willing to consider alternatives to the products they usually buy and are therefore more reachable with ads. Even women who listen to rock with their boyfriends secretly switch the car radio to urban, a/c, new country and chr when they are alone. You want rock on the radio? Tell every guy in the country to take over doing the grocery shopping, drug store errands, and buying their wife's/girlfriend's clothes and shoes. That would be a start. Frankly, I'd rather subscribe to Sirius than buy my g/f's Tampax.

 

[fredflintstone]

Since when is it delusional to want to make something better?

I did pay attention to what Fred and Eduardo said, does that mean I can't have a differing opinion.

You obviously didn't pay attention to what I wrote either. Its that lame way of thinking, only for profit, that has made radio what it is today. Seems management doesn't want real ideas, thats why you 'Managers" all come from sales. Maybe toothpaste sales, or car sales is better for you since you obviously have no passion for radio,, only money. In my opinion its people like you that have gutted the business I loved, maybe there are too many of you?

We aren't disagreeing about how things should be (at least I'm not). But we are trying to get you to pay more attention to how things are, not just how you want them to be.

You work in a business. Businesses exist to make a profit. I do think businesses make a mistake when they sacrifice long-term profit for short term gain. That's short-sighted but the bottom line is still the bottom-line. If you want a pay check, the money have to come from some place.

Terrestrial radio is advertiser supported. This is in contrast to satellite radio, which is listener supported.

Any business must have: (1) A product. (2) A means of producing or acquiring the product. (3) A buyer for the product.

In radio the buyer (client/customer) is the advertiser. The product the advertiser buys are listeners (or the attention of listeners). Programming exists to produce the product (to get listeners' attention). 150 years ago medicine shows traveled town to town. They'd put on a dog and pony show to draw a crowd and then do a pitch for snake oil. Not much has changed.

Ad agencies work for companies that market and sell consumer products and services. Those companies track consumer stations behavior in much the same way Arbitron tracks listener behavior (except they dropped consumer purchase diaries years ago for electronic tracking). They know who buys what. I don't think it is prejudice to sell to your most likely prospective customers. You fish where the fish are biting.

Maybe you should be working in satellite radio where it's all about attracting listeners (and getting them to subscribe and keep subscribing).

When you say "make things better," better how? Do you mean playing what you personally like? Again, radio is a business and it's about serving the customer. It's not a hobby (unless you have the money to buy your own station to play with). It's a job. It's not a means of creative self-expression.

 

[davideduardo]

Was there support for progressive rock back in the late 60s/early 70s? No. Management did give the format time to develop. It did pretty well for a few years. It morphed into a real moneymaker for a while.

Actually, progressive rock was born of the FCC requirement, in 1967, to end AM/FM simulcasts. Management found, for a few stations, that rock was cheap to run; time was given because there was no expectation of financial success. FM making a profit? No way!!

And how do you know there will be no support for any of the formats mentioned,, like punk?

The larger companies are constantly researching trends, music genres, etc. Whether to find what the pressures are on an existing format or to see where there is a market hole, this is done and the dimensions of "other" formats are pretty easy to define.

Are you using the same old consultants who just want to sell you their format in a box?

Most consultants are not "selling a format" but rather, selling expertise to make a station better.

Are you using research from Omaha to decide what will play in Philly, or in Miami?

In markets that size, research is all done locally with local listeners.

There are loads of people that have found their music fix through other delivery systems,,, Satellite,,, Internet. They aren't coming back to radio unless we give them something they want. And if its a nitch format they want, why not give it to them. If managed correctly, there is no reason nitch stations can't make a profit.

My "extreme analogy" is the reggae format in Minneapolis. There are just not enough listeners to sustain a "whole" station, but enough, when added to hundreds of other markets, to make a streaming or satellite format viable.

In the big markets, your profit comes from agency buys. Agencies buy from the top down in ranking, and don't go out of their way to buy niche formats with small numbers.

Hey, let me be a dreamer,,, radio needs more of us anyway.

Well, we agree on one thing. The questions have to be asked... it is better to ask 20 questions than just one, because you may hit on the issues that are important or the pieces of a real finding.

 

[davideduardo]

Was there support for progressive rock back in the late 60s/early 70s? No. Management did give the format time to develop. It did pretty well for a few years. It morphed into a real moneymaker for a while.

And how do you know there will be no support for any of the formats mentioned,, like punk? Are you using the same old consultants who just want to sell you their format in a box? Are you using research from Omaha to decide what will play in Philly, or in Miami?

There are loads of people that have found their music fix through other delivery systems,,, Satellite,,, Internet. They aren't coming back to radio unless we give them something they want. And if its a nitch format they want, why not give it to them. If managed correctly, there is no reason nitch stations can't make a profit.

Hey, let me be a dreamer,,, radio needs more of us anyway.