Why does the Country music format continously fail to succeed in large markets?

[zumahans]

Yes, that is a correct assumption about me. And a fact about movie-going in these polarized times.

Ocean's 11 tracked better in blue states.

Passion of the Christ did better in red states.

How many times do conservative radio yakkers tell their audience to avoid movies because of the political activism of the stars? All the time.

How many conservatives avoid CNN because of Ted Turner's past ownership? Or avoid CBS News because of Dan Rather's percieved bias, even though he is gone?

 

[michele995]

OK, a couple of notes here:

Both Tim McGraw and Faith Hill, arguably two of country's biggest stars, are Clinton-loving libs, and Tim has made no secret of it - vocally supporting democratic candidates and saying Bill was our greatest president in print on more than one occasion. Both Tim & faith were openly critical of the current administartion after Katrina.

Toby Keith is a registered Democrat and has made it clear - despite the volatile nature of some of his songs - that while he is a hard-core supporter of our troops, and was all for the actual "War On Terror" in Afghanistan, he is not so sure he continues to support the war in Iraq.

And finally - Portland, OR is market #24 - a fairly large market - and it supports not one, but TWO country FMs very well, as does Seattle (market #14). Both stations consistently rank in the top 3 every book.

That said, the demographic make-up in this area is still overwhelmingly caucasian, which likel accounts for that.

 

[zumahans]

Those are very good points, but it is abundantly clear that mainstream, traditional Nashville music tilts far right, and wears that on its sleeve. It's low ratings in L.A. white audiences can logically be ascribed to the fact that white Los Angeles is a a polarized crowd, with more metrosexuals than rednecks on the westside and in the valley. The suburbs are different, and that is where KFRG in the Inland Empire and KHAY in Ventura come in as profitable niche players.

And note that KYSR, the low-billing Star 98.7, is unique among LA commercial stations in not having a stick on Mount Wilson, but instead has a stick in some guy's backyard atop the Hollywood Hills above Beverly Hills. That makes KYSR one of the few solid FM signals in Santa Clarita, the huge suburb to the north where low cost (by ridiculous LA price standards) suburban growth has attracted cops, firemen, and similar country-friendly demographic slices of white L.A.

Seattle and Portland have such low ethnic populations that country stations will chart very well among the suburban SUV and truck crowds.

Alt-country, a la Steve Earle and the Dixie Chicks (lyrically, at least), is a democratic party friendly sound. I guess why it does as well as it does in some places, like Austin.

 

[briancraig]

Zumahans, you know you have 0 proof that Ocean's 11 tracked better in blue states.

I agree that Passion Of The Christ probably did better in red states and I'm sure Al Gore's film or one of Michael Moore's films will do better in blue states

However, mainstream Hollywood blockbusters do well all over the U.S. My point was that plenty of conservative Republicans consume entertainment product put out by well known Hollywood liberals without a problem.

I still don't understand why Brooks and Dunn performing at the GOP convention would make someone unable to enjoy Neon Moon or Boot Scootin' Boogie.

 

[zumahans]

Yes, I know I have 0 proof that Ocean's 11 tracked better in blue states.

But I have seen plenty of red state chatter about boycotting Hollywood stars like Clooney, Barbra Streisand, etc., who take leftist stands.

---->However, mainstream Hollywood blockbusters do well all over the U.S.

Really? Like Brokeback Mountain?

----->My point was that plenty of conservative Republicans consume entertainment product put out by well known Hollywood liberals without a problem.

A valid point, but movies are different than music. When I turn on KSON, or "Nashville" on XM, I can go about 20 minutes before I hear a jingoitic song, or a song that treats women in a sexist manner, or some other content that turns my stomach.

Net result, I don't tune KSON again.

Movies are different. Each movie is a different experience.

And don't you think a sizeable chunk of red state America boycotts Hollywood in general because of a perceived liberal tilt out here?

------>I still don't understand why Brooks and Dunn performing at the GOP convention would make someone unable to enjoy Neon Moon or Boot Scootin' Boogie.

Because that someone won't ever get exposed to those songs, if he samples "Nashville" contemporary country music stations and goes away disgusted after hearing the occasional song that offends him. That's my point: it's not all country music that is stomach-turning, just enough to sour the experience for many and drive that segment of the audience away.

That is, of course, the same understandable reason why diehard conservatives hate the Dixie Chicks. Their music was just fine until they started saying things that country music artists "traditionally" aren't supposed to say.

Country music is like politics today, on both sides of the fence. It played to the core fan base, and alienated the others.

All this reminds me of when rock fans abandoned Bob Dylan during his Jesus freak phrase back in the 70s.

 

[briancraig]

---But I have seen plenty of red state chatter about boycotting Hollywood stars like Clooney, Barbra Streisand, etc., who take leftist stands.---

There are hardcore right wing ideologues who urge boycotts of Hollywood, but the vast majority of red staters don't support those sort of things. Most people want the stars to shut up and entertain them.


--Really? Like Brokeback Mountain?--

Not exactly a mainstream kind of movie.

-- I can go about 20 minutes before I hear a jingoitic song, or a song that treats women in a sexist manner, or some other content that turns my stomach.--

Could you cite 3 examples of these kind of songs that I might hear on a typical country station.

--And don't you think a sizeable chunk of red state America boycotts Hollywood in general because of a perceived liberal tilt out here?--

No, I don't believe that at all. I think red state America is far more tolerant of Hollywood types than the other way around. When Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson say ignorant things, the marjority of people in the South or Midwest take them for the idiots that they are, but when Rosie O'Donnell says Christians are just as much of a threat as radical Islam or Bill Maher spews his bigotry about red staters and religion, I get the idea that most people in the Hollywood community don't take them as the idiots they are.

 

[zumahans]

Three examples:

Consider these lyrics from a few recent chart-toppers:

“Some say this country’s just out looking for a fight / After 9/11 man, I’d have to say that’s right.”
“You can stay behind or you can get out of the way / But our troops take out the garbage for the good old U.S.A.”
“You’ll be sorry that you messed with the U.S. of A / ‘Cause we’ll put a boot in your ass, it’s the American way.”

Ray Stevens: "Osama Yo Mama" (AKA George Bush: A Love Song).

More examples: Cox and Cumulus banning the Dixie Chicks, and Clear Channel chickening out, advising its station manager sheep to "listen to your audience."

I have my politics, and I don;t deny you yours. I love the texas country sound - nashville is waaaay to sappy and polished for me. I listen to texas music on the web, and Sirius 63 is my favorite radio station period. Hell, I even subscribed to KPFT in Houston one time after listening to their Texas music programs while traspped in Houston for a week.

But I can't listen to KSON or KZLA (back when) for more than a few sweeps before I hear something that is a REAL negative.

As to your assessment of red state America, you had me believing you until I look at election results. If red state mainstream voters are as openminded as you claim, that just doesn't check out.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

Indyianapolis powerhouse WFMS has been the nation's #1 country station in large/major markets for over a decade, and Indy is soon going to pass Detroit and become the nationb's tenth largest city.

KZLA had a horrible morning show for starters, and Emmis used it as a dumping ground for ridiculously high commercial loads to help KPWR , which had been struggling ratings-wise in the market for over two years before a recent resurgence.

A consultant (Jaye Albright) was quoted in R&R recently as stating that there are TONS of cities with an ethnic mix similar to LA where country radio does VERY well, including Las Vegas, Riverside, Palm Springs, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson, many Texas markets and too many other cities to list.

There are far more country stations out there (over 2,100) than any other format, and with country music sales having a TERRIFIC sales year in 2006 (up almost EIGHTEEN percent!!), the format's future is very bright.

 

[Jay F]

One of the main reasons the city of Indianapolis is so large is that they annexed some suburban areas into the city limits. The size of the central city isn't important when it comes to radio, it's the metro area that counts. Detrot is a MUCH larger radio market than Indy, #9 Vs #41. So the success of WFMS (and they are a great radio station) does not mean Country is a big format in major markets.

Yes there are heavily ethnic markets where country does well. However, the non-ethnics in those markets are more country lifestyle oriented than the non-ethnics in markets like LA and SF.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

I have NO idea how the market sizes are computed, but the fact that country does VERY well in some VERY large cities shows that's there's plenty of room for country in large cities if it's done correctly.

Besides Indianapolis, there's cites such as Dallas, Columbus, Chicago, San Antonio, Denver, Seattle, Baltimore, Tampa and many others where the format really shines.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

The Indianapolis market population is Indianapolis plus two surrounding counties in every direction (may be a bit too general of a description, but it is something like that)

Indianapolis has NOT annexed any additional land recently.  Some of the outlying cities (Fishers, Carmel) have been annexing unincorporated areas of Hamilton County, but the City of Indianapolis is not growing in terms of area.

I agree with the previous poster, comparing Indy to much larger, less white (I'll accept political incorrectness here) cities such as Detroit or LA is apples to Volkswagens.

 

[john77]

Re: Why does the Country music format continously fail to succeed in large marke

I have NO idea how the market sizes are computed, but the fact that country does VERY well in some VERY large cities shows that's there's plenty of room for country in large cities if it's done correctly.

Besides Indianapolis, there's cites such as Dallas, Columbus, Chicago, San Antonio, Denver, Seattle, Baltimore, Tampa and many others where the format really shines.

This is very true. The problem is that sometimes the programmers don't seem to know the demographics and what works in some markets. Country can work in ANY market, it just takes a good PD to make it work.

 

[raccoonradio]

Re: Why does the Country music format continously fail to succeed in large marke

Boston was considered death valley for Country radio for awhile but the one-and-only station in town (not counting rimshotters from RI & NH) is doing very well at least as far as the 12 + ratings are concerned.
The last period in that demo had them in 8th place, a tiny fraction behind Oldies 103 (a lot of stations in the market though, so everything's fragmented...that number may not seem big compared to country stations in other markets but years ago they'd be lucky to get one-quarter of that number.
(See Boston market via radioandrecords.com ratings)

And on Dec 1 that station, WKLB, switched to 102.5 and a stick closer to Boston with fairly good coverage.
In a town that used to be a tough sell for country, it's not doing too badly.

http://www.wklb.com

 

[kws31a]

WNEW 102.7 in New York may be headed into the Country format. It seems to be one of the last options that's popular nationwide and would have no competition in the market. I'd stay tuned.....

 

[NJMike]

Having grown up in NJ in an area where Republicans are Moderate, Pro Choice, Pro Environment, Anti-Gun, but non the less the majority country music has always been pretty popular. You always heard stores playing the original WYNY, then it's incarnations after. This is an area where people work in the city, drive SUV's and don't carry guns. Is the music all about American Pride? No, but you have to remember that this is a pure American genre. What's wrong with American Pride anyhow? It doesn't mean all country artists supportPresident Bush and the Iraq War. It's pride in everything that is great about this country.

Well said. As a fellow NJ native, I must say that country music has always maintained a certain popularity here. Not so much in the ethnically diverse cities like Newark and Camden, but for most of the rest of the state it has. We have 3 full-time country stations here (Cat Country 107.3, K-98.5, and WXTU-FM from Philly) and they all sound great and do very well in the ratings. However, I have encountered a major biased towards country mostly from "city-dwellers" who perceive country music as extreme right-winged, conservative Christian, and pro-Republican...and they couldn't more incorrect. This mindset comes mostly from NYC, where a major biased towards country music still exists mainly due to the perception I just mentioned. I always wondered how a city with a conservative talk station (WABC-AM) that does well in the ratings does not have a full-time country station.

 

[kws31a]

Today's country is very mainstream. You are correct that the "NYC" mindset is nothing more than "perception" of the music. I grew up with WNEW as a rocker and loved it! I never in a million years thought I would become a country fan until I actually "listened" to the lyrics and was able to relate to alot of it. I believe if more "naysayers" actually had a station to listen to and actually listened, they would see part of themselves in the music. It's no longer about cowboys, pickup trucks and "sh-tkickers". Alot of today's "country" is more "rock" than anything else. Not to mention that just about every female artist is HOT! Ok..end of rant...LOL

 

[kws31a]

(Cat Country 107.3, K-98.5, and WXTU-FM from Philly)


Don't forget 96.1 Cat Country (Allentown,PA) and WADB-AM 1310

 

[Jeffrey]

Well said. As a fellow NJ native, I must say that country music has always maintained a certain popularity here. Not so much in the ethnically diverse cities like Newark and Camden, but for most of the rest of the state it has. We have 3 full-time country stations here (Cat Country 107.3, K-98.5, and WXTU-FM from Philly) and they all sound great and do very well in the ratings. However, I have encountered a major biased towards country mostly from "city-dwellers" who perceive country music as extreme right-winged, conservative Christian, and pro-Republican...and they couldn't more incorrect. This mindset comes mostly from NYC, where a major biased towards country music still exists mainly due to the perception I just mentioned. I always wondered how a city with a conservative talk station (WABC-AM) that does well in the ratings does not have a full-time country station.

I think the more appropriate question is how does WABC-AM do well in the ratings when New York is an overwhelmingly liberal democratic city?

 

[Jeffrey]

Today's country is very mainstream. You are correct that the "NYC" mindset is nothing more than "perception" of the music. I grew up with WNEW as a rocker and loved it! I never in a million years thought I would become a country fan until I actually "listened" to the lyrics and was able to relate to alot of it. I believe if more "naysayers" actually had a station to listen to and actually listened, they would see part of themselves in the music. It's no longer about cowboys, pickup trucks and "sh-tkickers". Alot of today's "country" is more "rock" than anything else. Not to mention that just about every female artist is HOT! Ok..end of rant...LOL

I'm not within listening range of a country station but travel often to Eastern Long Island where you can pick up Country 92.5 out of Hartford, CT. While I understand the appeal of Keith Urban and perhaps even Tim McGraw there is, for the most part alot of twangy southern accent singers that frankly hold no appeal to me. This isn't meant as a critism so don't take it as such, it's just that I find it hard to believe than in a city like New York that would hold enough appeal to pull in more than a 1.0 and make some money with advertisers.

 

[zumahans]

I think the more appropriate question is how does WABC-AM do well in the ratings when New York is an overwhelmingly liberal democratic city?

Liberal democrats do not listen to talkradio.

WABC is a big frog in a small pond. Most NYC commuters do not listen to radio in cars.

AM talkradio is a loud pipsqueak on the overall scheme of things.