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Why does WEEI signal pattern go out to sea?
- Thread starter ChrisNH
- Start date
850s in Penn., Denver, Connecticut, Cle., etc.
The old WHDH (AM) was one of the first (then, Class II) AMs in the US to be granted authority to operate at night on a Class I channel. When this happened (must have been sometime in the '30s) KOA (Denver) was the only station WHDH had to protect. By the time WHDH moved from Saugus to Needham (around 1947), there were already 850s in Cleveland (WJW) and Reading PA (WEEU--since moved to 830), among others. In fact, at the same time that WHDH's 50 kW upgrade was under construction in Needham, a 10 kW-U station was being built on 850 in Albany NY, only about 150 miles away. That station (WXKW) operated for six years under program test authority before it went dark. The reason WXKW never received a license to cover and eventually went dark was that the six-tower DA could not be made to perform within specifications. The problem was not WHDH, however; it was KOA 1600 miles away. Class I (now Class A) AMs require much more severe protections than stations of lower classes.raccoonradio said:
If you look at every AM around here, I think you'll find they are nulled to protect Canada, the south, and the west.
If you look at WAZN for example, we get to increase our power at night from 1.4kw to 3.4kw, but our pattern at night is about 10 miles wide, pointed right at Quincy from Lexington, then out to the Cape.
WLYN goes from 700 watts, down to 76 watts at night (with a PSSA of 225 watts IIRC) our local night pattern is barely good for 5 miles inland, 10 miles distant, but the fish can hear us load and clear.
Now the coverage maps on Radio-Locator are theoretical, and AM signals can go much further than what is on paper, which is why everyone around here on paper is hollering at the fish, but WBZ's theoretical map has them covering the ocean from Quincy to Portland, and the distant limit is about a 130 mile radius inland, but IBOC hash aside, they can be heard pretty much everywhere east of the Rockies.
If you look at WAZN for example, we get to increase our power at night from 1.4kw to 3.4kw, but our pattern at night is about 10 miles wide, pointed right at Quincy from Lexington, then out to the Cape.
WLYN goes from 700 watts, down to 76 watts at night (with a PSSA of 225 watts IIRC) our local night pattern is barely good for 5 miles inland, 10 miles distant, but the fish can hear us load and clear.
Now the coverage maps on Radio-Locator are theoretical, and AM signals can go much further than what is on paper, which is why everyone around here on paper is hollering at the fish, but WBZ's theoretical map has them covering the ocean from Quincy to Portland, and the distant limit is about a 130 mile radius inland, but IBOC hash aside, they can be heard pretty much everywhere east of the Rockies.
ChrisNH said:
Yes, to put it simply, because WEEI must protect the stations mentioned in the above posts, among them, 850 in Ridgefield, CT by day, and Johnstown PA, Raleigh NC, Cleveland OH, and the powerful KOA Denver at night, when AM signals tend to skip long distances after sunset. Beaming eastward toward the ocean from their Needham transmitter site was the way they could cover metro Boston and the north and south shores without interfering with those stations in the inland USA.
If you look at the coverage maps, especially at night, for the other 50kW Boston area AM's, you'll see that most of them (WRKO, WEEI, WKOX and WWZN), as well as some of the other smaller directional AM's, also put a lot of night signal over the ocean, and not much to the west for similar reasons of protecting other stations inland. Of the 50kW Boston AM's, only WBZ had the seniority, and the then-called "clear channel" status when they were built, to send the bulk of its signal inland as well as up and down the coasts, but not out to sea.
Thanks, all. You guys put a lot of thought & knowledge into your answers, so I appreciate it. I learned something, too. I'm a ham radio operator, but that didn't help me understand the transmitter's signal orientation (especially with respect to other patterns I saw on the web site.)
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
We have discussed co-channel operations, like when WLYN powers down at night , we are protecting not only another 1360 in Connecticut but a first channel adjacent in Vermont on 1370,also in Maine , and one in Manchester NH that is real close by as far as propagation goes. There is also a station on 1350 in Laconia NH,Putnam Ct, and Norwalk CT that if we were allowed an omni directional pattern we could possibly interfere with.
So it isn't only stations on the same frequency that come into play, but those plus or minus 10Khz of you.
Around here it is easy... just aim for the fish, but it must have been a real challenge at one time for stations to figure out all the issues of nightime operation.
Now the way to get around an AM that wants to boost it's night power is to buy the stations that would be impacted and take them dark, or change the license to reduce power, change patterns, whatever it takes to get your larger market station a better signal at the expense of the people who listened to the weaker one.
So it isn't only stations on the same frequency that come into play, but those plus or minus 10Khz of you.
Around here it is easy... just aim for the fish, but it must have been a real challenge at one time for stations to figure out all the issues of nightime operation.
Now the way to get around an AM that wants to boost it's night power is to buy the stations that would be impacted and take them dark, or change the license to reduce power, change patterns, whatever it takes to get your larger market station a better signal at the expense of the people who listened to the weaker one.
Hey, lobsters have antennea.... maybe thats why they call them "rock lobster 
;D " and don't forget the rusty pots...
;D " and don't forget the rusty pots...LA_Guy said:
I doubt that a second tower could be erected at the Lynn location, and the cost involved would take forever to recoup. MRBI does not own the tower or the land at the transmitter site.
A couple of years ago Salem filed paperwork to move the WROL transmitter inland about a mile to a rocky area up behind Kappy's on Route 1. If the plan had gone through, it would have been a perfect opportunity for WLYN to upgrade. Salem loves to lease tower space. WAZN is on a Salem tower in Lexington. WLYN could have leased space on the new tower(s).
For some reason Salem pulled the application almost as soon as it was filed, and WLYN is still stuck in the junk yard with all the associated problems that go with it.
WROL, which is a few miles up the road from WLYN, held such a CP for quite a few years before surrendering it. 5 kW-N from the present site using three towers. All of the signal would have gone southeast--out to sea, and though the signal would have been listenable im Dorchester, the 37.<something> mV/m NIF contour would not quite have reached Dorchester. Would have covered a fair number of fish and crustaceans, however. I guess the night signal in Provincetown would have been pretty great, too. Still, from what I know about WROL's owner, Salem Communications, and the populace of P-Town, I rather doubt that Salem would have had a whole lot of success in bringing most of P-Town's residents into the fold.LA_Guy said:
Salem modified its WROL application, which, IIRC, was originally for only 1 kW-N, to specify 5 kW from the existing WROL site on Lynn Marsh Rd in Saugus. The modified app was granted but never built and after several years of no progress, Salem utlimately surrendered it.MRBIboredop said:
As I pointed out in my previous post, doing a night power increase for WROL in that way, does not--and never did--seem to make much, if any, sense. Now, if WAZN had not moved to the 1150 site on Lexington, which, BTW, Salem does not own, it would have been the perfect night site for WROL. The complexities of a 950/1150/1470 triplex are just too great, however.
Dan IIRC, and I may be wrong here, before the application to change the Marsh Road site was filed, they filed to move over off of route 1, but it was pulled within days. Then they filed to upgrade Marsh Road the old WHDH site where the tower is almost in the water due to erosion.
I was unaware that Salem didn't own the Lexington site, I stand corrected.
I was unaware that Salem didn't own the Lexington site, I stand corrected.
Gadon said:
Not exactly. CKVL didn't move to 850 (from 980) until many years after WHDH (AM) moved to Needham and increased to 50 kW-U. The 850 allotment in Montreal (actually Verdun, I believe) worked because the two WHDH patterns favor the east and the signal toward Verdun was equivalent to less than 50 kW ND (approximately 12 kW). Also, I believe that Canadian rules about CoL coverage with the NIF contour differ from the US rules. Even so, I doubt whether CKVL could have been licensed to the larger city of Montreal. So you might say that when CKVL moved to 850, it was tucked into WHDH's null. Of course, because of later rules--especially the so-called ratchet rule--if WEEI were to make any changes now, it would have to reduce radiation toward the former CKVL. It matters not that there is no longer any station in the Montreal area on 850. The 850 allocation in Verdun remains notified to the US and therefore must be protected as if there were such a station.
Don Juan said:
My understanding is that that unofficial slogan was not directly related the signal coverage! It was in use back when the WHDH transmitter was on Lynn Marsh Rd in Saugus (the current site of WROL). In the '30s--before it was bought by the Boston Herald-Traveler--WHDH was apparently best known for its focus on the fishing industry, which was very imprtant to the Mass. economy at the time. The station broadcast the weather conditions in Mass Bay and on George's Bank and also broadcast the prices being paid for fish where the fishing boats landed in Gloucester and other places on Cape Ann. Some clever wag came up with a "slogan" related to fish, and though the station probably never used the Dead Haddock slogan on the air, it caught on with a lot of listeners.
I remember one night a couple of years ago I was driving up in La Malbaie, Quebec (about 90 miles north of Quebec City) and tried tuning to 850 to see if I could here the Red Sox game. It must have been a great skip because the station came in loud and clear. Once I drove inland a bit it faded out.
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