I have had the misfortune of using ATT in a smaller market to provide a T-1 circuit for an STL to a site that doesn't have a good direct path for a conventional STL. This has proven to be a pretty big mistake in that they have been out no less than five times to fix their stuff, mainly after thunderstorms. It's always their equipment or wires that have issues. Getting tired of bothering the tower owner who is also a broadcaster, I have inquired about locating the equipment in an outside enclosure for better access. There's a real interesting thing I've learned while enquiring. They WON'T dispatch someone in the middle of the night after a storm is even overwith due to the mud, etc. until the next morning. That means the T-1 stays broke until the next morning even though they have the 2-hour repair time limit in the TOS. The good news for me is that I never fully trusted ATT in the first place based on other people's rather lackluster experience with them and had a wireless internet provider install internet at the tower also. So, about every other storm the station is litterly running on a internet stream of our webcast (contains all content including EAS BTW). I'm checking into a double-hop or some other long-term fix for their "service" so when our contract is up with them, we can try something else. This is just a word of warning for anyone considering using ATT for their STL. If you don't have a great "Plan B" you might just end up off the air more than is tolorable.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Why I dislike ATT as a STL...
- Thread starter OKCRadioGuy
- Start date
Did ATT not provide surge protection on their wires and equipment? Did they not ground their equipment properly?
A T1 circuit is nothing more than telephone lines. Failure of the circuits should be rare if they are properly installed.
I'd go higher-up with ATT and ask WHY there have been this many T1 failures. I would demand an explanation.
A T1 circuit is nothing more than telephone lines. Failure of the circuits should be rare if they are properly installed.
I'd go higher-up with ATT and ask WHY there have been this many T1 failures. I would demand an explanation.
You need to call tech support due to what is an obvious outage. The person from another land who answers ignores everything you say and responds, "You need to reboot your computer." or "You need to go to you start menu, click control panel.....and click create new network connection".
I feel your pain as ATT consumer and business tech support are both useless. When it was Bell South in my neck of the woods, you had a good chance to talk to someone with sense. But after ATT took over there went the common sense. The field techs seem to still have a clue but trying to explain the problem to the idiot on the phone will drive you mad.
I feel your pain as ATT consumer and business tech support are both useless. When it was Bell South in my neck of the woods, you had a good chance to talk to someone with sense. But after ATT took over there went the common sense. The field techs seem to still have a clue but trying to explain the problem to the idiot on the phone will drive you mad.
"Did ATT not provide surge protection on their wires and equipment? Did they not ground their equipment properly?
A T1 circuit is nothing more than telephone lines. Failure of the circuits should be rare if they are properly installed.
I'd go higher-up with ATT and ask WHY there have been this many T1 failures. I would demand an explanation."
Yeah. They've provided protection and I've added a polyphaser. All of my stuff stays working fine. So far I've not had any damage of my gear. It's always something on their end. I honestly think it hits their lines or whatever downline somewhere and pops amps, etc. One would think they'd come up with a way to protect their own equipment better, but that hasn't appearently happened.
A T1 circuit is nothing more than telephone lines. Failure of the circuits should be rare if they are properly installed.
I'd go higher-up with ATT and ask WHY there have been this many T1 failures. I would demand an explanation."
Yeah. They've provided protection and I've added a polyphaser. All of my stuff stays working fine. So far I've not had any damage of my gear. It's always something on their end. I honestly think it hits their lines or whatever downline somewhere and pops amps, etc. One would think they'd come up with a way to protect their own equipment better, but that hasn't appearently happened.
"I feel your pain as ATT consumer and business tech support are both useless. When it was Bell South in my neck of the woods, you had a good chance to talk to someone with sense. But after ATT took over there went the common sense. The field techs seem to still have a clue but trying to explain the problem to the idiot on the phone will drive you mad."
I've had at least english-speakers on the T-1 circuit which helps at least. There's generally the "are you sure it's not your fault" factor in most of their communications and "we will charge you if it is your fault" thing which can be irritating. So far though its always been something they've done on their end. The same tech gets sent out to fix stuff and he seems OK, but like most ATT employees he's overworked and seems to have his hands tied. I've heard from serveral people that used to be in a non-SBC/ATT area that have had similar experiences in that their service went to total heck when ATt took over. Even here in former SBCland it seems some of the bad attitude of the old ATT long-distance carrier of the early 90s has spilled over to the new ATT. They are bad and getting worse it seems around here. At one point we considered going with a ISDN to the tower as it was much cheaper. With their lackluster repair times and lack of knowlege of how to fix ISDN anymore we ran from that option. I guess for more money we at least get next-day service with T-1.
I've had at least english-speakers on the T-1 circuit which helps at least. There's generally the "are you sure it's not your fault" factor in most of their communications and "we will charge you if it is your fault" thing which can be irritating. So far though its always been something they've done on their end. The same tech gets sent out to fix stuff and he seems OK, but like most ATT employees he's overworked and seems to have his hands tied. I've heard from serveral people that used to be in a non-SBC/ATT area that have had similar experiences in that their service went to total heck when ATt took over. Even here in former SBCland it seems some of the bad attitude of the old ATT long-distance carrier of the early 90s has spilled over to the new ATT. They are bad and getting worse it seems around here. At one point we considered going with a ISDN to the tower as it was much cheaper. With their lackluster repair times and lack of knowlege of how to fix ISDN anymore we ran from that option. I guess for more money we at least get next-day service with T-1.
R
RolfTaylor
Guest
You just need to learn the "art of dealing with the phone company". First off, go online and search the telco tarrifs. T1 is a business service, and as such, have limits on repair time and priority.
1) Do all of the above, and cooperate with them in playing the game
2) Contact your state regulatory agency. In particular, be sure to mention that businesses in your state cannot afford this level if poor service.
These day's this is most easily accomplished using a web form. If you do not currently have an open trouble ticket that is ok, just get the contact info from the person (at the Telco) that replies to the complaint. Your attitude should be "I am sorry I had to call the state, but I had no other choice". If you do not have an open ticket tell the state they can close this complaint but be prepared to call your new contact as soon as you have another outage.
3) Use each trouble ticket as an opportunity to collect names and numbers. Specifically, get call back info for anyone that "gives a damn" and also anyone that "knows what s/he is doing". You are of course doing this so you can work with them on the current ticket. The fact you keep it for use in the future need not be discussed.
4) Never contact the above people without opening a trouble ticket first. Policy prohibits working on jobs without an open ticket. However, once you have a trouble ticket number (ALWAYS get that info when you call repair) call your contact(s) and politely ask for their help because "you remember how good/caring they were before.
5) In the short run you want to play the game in the way to get faster resolution. Longer term, the contact you gained by complaining to the state, combined with your contact(s) who know the trade can be used to get action to prevent the problems in the first place.
6) As long as they are working the ticket have patience. If they are taking too long the best approach is to enlist sympathy by stating that your boss is coming down on you and you fear for your job.
7) Until the problem is confirmed and resolved do not allow them to close out the ticket. Be clear about this.
8) If service does not get more reliable, or repair time does not routinely drop to a few hours at most, call your contact at the Telco that was assigned to you when you complained to the state. Tell them you do not want to contact that state again, but you need them to live up to the tarriff or you will have to do so to keep the station on the air.
9) Treat the techs that come to that station and/or TX site like your best friends. Give them coffee, pizza, T-shirts and station tours. As above, if you find a really good one remember you can ask a ticket to be assigned to a given tech (it may or may not happen, but you certainly can ask). Above all, don't let your disdain for the phone company show in your treatment of the techs. Remember, they work for companies that make the radio groups look tiny. Keep them happy and let them work through their procedures as long as they leave the ticket open.
Just remember, state regulation still exists in a very real sense - the Telco's may consider this as "onerous regulation" but fortunately you can use that to your advantage. Indeed you must, or you are not doing your job.
10) If you don't know squat about T1 do your homework. I wrote the Telephony glossary on the Telos web site which is a good place to start. Equipment manuals and white papers can are you with facts and lingo to make the job easier.
11) If your equipment vendor has knowledgable support tech use them for leaverage. They should be able to help you prove it is not your equipment, or at least state it is 90% likely it is not your equipment, and explain how to test this assertion.
Best of luck,
Rolf
1) Do all of the above, and cooperate with them in playing the game
2) Contact your state regulatory agency. In particular, be sure to mention that businesses in your state cannot afford this level if poor service.
These day's this is most easily accomplished using a web form. If you do not currently have an open trouble ticket that is ok, just get the contact info from the person (at the Telco) that replies to the complaint. Your attitude should be "I am sorry I had to call the state, but I had no other choice". If you do not have an open ticket tell the state they can close this complaint but be prepared to call your new contact as soon as you have another outage.
3) Use each trouble ticket as an opportunity to collect names and numbers. Specifically, get call back info for anyone that "gives a damn" and also anyone that "knows what s/he is doing". You are of course doing this so you can work with them on the current ticket. The fact you keep it for use in the future need not be discussed.
4) Never contact the above people without opening a trouble ticket first. Policy prohibits working on jobs without an open ticket. However, once you have a trouble ticket number (ALWAYS get that info when you call repair) call your contact(s) and politely ask for their help because "you remember how good/caring they were before.
5) In the short run you want to play the game in the way to get faster resolution. Longer term, the contact you gained by complaining to the state, combined with your contact(s) who know the trade can be used to get action to prevent the problems in the first place.
6) As long as they are working the ticket have patience. If they are taking too long the best approach is to enlist sympathy by stating that your boss is coming down on you and you fear for your job.
7) Until the problem is confirmed and resolved do not allow them to close out the ticket. Be clear about this.
8) If service does not get more reliable, or repair time does not routinely drop to a few hours at most, call your contact at the Telco that was assigned to you when you complained to the state. Tell them you do not want to contact that state again, but you need them to live up to the tarriff or you will have to do so to keep the station on the air.
9) Treat the techs that come to that station and/or TX site like your best friends. Give them coffee, pizza, T-shirts and station tours. As above, if you find a really good one remember you can ask a ticket to be assigned to a given tech (it may or may not happen, but you certainly can ask). Above all, don't let your disdain for the phone company show in your treatment of the techs. Remember, they work for companies that make the radio groups look tiny. Keep them happy and let them work through their procedures as long as they leave the ticket open.
Just remember, state regulation still exists in a very real sense - the Telco's may consider this as "onerous regulation" but fortunately you can use that to your advantage. Indeed you must, or you are not doing your job.
10) If you don't know squat about T1 do your homework. I wrote the Telephony glossary on the Telos web site which is a good place to start. Equipment manuals and white papers can are you with facts and lingo to make the job easier.
11) If your equipment vendor has knowledgable support tech use them for leaverage. They should be able to help you prove it is not your equipment, or at least state it is 90% likely it is not your equipment, and explain how to test this assertion.
Best of luck,
Rolf
Excellent advice from the master! Particularly #2. I'll add, >always< follow up an online or call to the regulatory agency with a written complaint.
We differ on one point... I don't threaten to contact the agency (Public Service Commission, or some places Coprporation Commission), I simply go ahead and initiate a complaint when it's justified. My ol' Daddy the lawyer maintained 'Never threaten. Take action, and then they know you mean business.' My response to the necktie who appears or calls in a pained manner is 'I had no luck with your service department, one letter to the PSC and I have you here to help. Give me a better way of getting this help and I'll be pleased to use it.' They have done so, so far. I haven't written a nastygram in several years.
We differ on one point... I don't threaten to contact the agency (Public Service Commission, or some places Coprporation Commission), I simply go ahead and initiate a complaint when it's justified. My ol' Daddy the lawyer maintained 'Never threaten. Take action, and then they know you mean business.' My response to the necktie who appears or calls in a pained manner is 'I had no luck with your service department, one letter to the PSC and I have you here to help. Give me a better way of getting this help and I'll be pleased to use it.' They have done so, so far. I haven't written a nastygram in several years.
What's the feasibility of fiber going up to the tower?
Had a situation here in NJ where Verizon provided a T1 up the hill to the TX site. About 4 miles, replaced lousy 15k circuits with it because they kept crapping out. The T1 also kept crapping out after thunderstorms, ice, snow, heavy rain, cold, warm, birds farting on the wires... you get the point. One time it was out more than 36 hours after a snow to rain storm. Turns out there was a repeater can on the line that kept going belly up. After they replaced that it was better, but not great.
In the end they finally ran fiber up the last 2 miles (from a run on the main road) and downtime went to zero. I literally think in 3 years it may have been off for about 2 hours total, and 99% of that was because a drunk took out a telephone pole on the way up the road. Without the pole being knocked over, there was maybe 30 seconds total of down time with the fiber.
Had a situation here in NJ where Verizon provided a T1 up the hill to the TX site. About 4 miles, replaced lousy 15k circuits with it because they kept crapping out. The T1 also kept crapping out after thunderstorms, ice, snow, heavy rain, cold, warm, birds farting on the wires... you get the point. One time it was out more than 36 hours after a snow to rain storm. Turns out there was a repeater can on the line that kept going belly up. After they replaced that it was better, but not great.
In the end they finally ran fiber up the last 2 miles (from a run on the main road) and downtime went to zero. I literally think in 3 years it may have been off for about 2 hours total, and 99% of that was because a drunk took out a telephone pole on the way up the road. Without the pole being knocked over, there was maybe 30 seconds total of down time with the fiber.
Thanks Rolf! I'll copy the list to paper for future reference. Good points! Fiber is unlikely. It's so far out in the sticks in an area where ATT wouldn't have any reason to run fiber even on the main road for years. I think I'm stuck with copper if I stick with ATT in general. Also, part of the reason we went with land-based stuff instead of putting our signal up on the bird and delivering it to this site that way was a cost issue. The T-1 is providing a "short" hop between a college campus in town out to the tower which is about 6-7 miles out of town. Appearently the total circuit takes about 8 repeaters to get it there. The good news about the college campus side is that it IS on fiber and hasn't failed once. It's always the tower side, which has copper and some of the worse copper in the state it seems LOL! Two other broadcasters in the area used to have STLs via ISDN that they later abandoned because ATT's service record was terrible. I sure knew I wanted to stay away from ISDN at this site (which would have been normally a great choice) as ISDN is considered like a POTS line for repair times. At least without going further up the foodchain I can get the tech to come out the very next morning with the T-1. ISDN would be a couple days or when they feel like it. Part of the issue I have here is that the town is a small enough place that there is only one tech that comes to fix digital circuits. I prefer not to make him mad at me as it wouldn't be in my best interest. If I can sort of construct it as a company issue and not that he isn't doing things 100 percent right etc. I'd be much better off. I think the guy slipped many years ago in the mud and he and his boss have sort of "come up with a policy" that they are waiting for daylight for safety reasons. I could shake the hornets nest and make him go fix it at 2am, but something tells me that's not going to be a good idea. I think I'm stuck to some degree running on my backup stream until morning. My best bet in this location is to consider microwave at some point when we can afford to buy some equipment to do so. I will hang on to the information though for T-1s on how to deal with those guys. Very good points!!!
Who owns/maintains the copper? Is it actually ATT's equipment that's being zorched?
Never known ATT to have their own circuits. Usually lease them from the local Telco.
Never known ATT to have their own circuits. Usually lease them from the local Telco.
Unless you follow the mergers, it can get kind of confusing. ATT is the former Southwestern Bell. Ma Bell is slowly reassembling herself after years of divestiture.
I've used digital circuits, in one form or another as links to various sites for about 15 years. Early on, my region was served by a group in Little Rock. You could contact them directly and they would open a ticket and test while you were on the line. They knew their stuff, and if you were decent to them, they would move heaven and earth to get your circuit back up.
Now, ATT/SWB is so decentralized and spread so thin that the service is really going downhill. When you open a trouble ticket today, the main question seems to be, "can we dispatch out now?" It's also not unusual for the same trouble ticket number to be assigned to multiple customers in different locations. Apparently, ATT is having trouble coordinating their error reporting. It frustrates those at ATT who care.
Great suggestions noted by Rolf, above. I would add this.
1. Keep notes. When a problem is solved, asked them to describe it and then you write it down. ATT purges their history on a problem after 18 months. If you have a problem that tends to re-occur, you can speed things up by being able to tell them what card failed the last time and where. It's surprising how often problems reoccur at the same location.
2. Don't be afraid to ask for the ticket to be escalated. If you can get to Tier-2 or above help, your quality of service goes way up. You also usually get a direct dial number to report problems.
My present day experience has been that ATT is trying to troubleshoot their system from more and more remote locations via the internet. It is not uncommon for a tester to tell me that "he can't get into the switch." (By the way, you can ask that a ticket be directed to a specific CO).
While I'm not pleased with the way the "New ATT" works, I kind of feel for those folks there trying to do their jobs. They're like doctors trying to perform surgery over the telephone...and sometimes the phone works...sometimes it doesn't.
I've used digital circuits, in one form or another as links to various sites for about 15 years. Early on, my region was served by a group in Little Rock. You could contact them directly and they would open a ticket and test while you were on the line. They knew their stuff, and if you were decent to them, they would move heaven and earth to get your circuit back up.
Now, ATT/SWB is so decentralized and spread so thin that the service is really going downhill. When you open a trouble ticket today, the main question seems to be, "can we dispatch out now?" It's also not unusual for the same trouble ticket number to be assigned to multiple customers in different locations. Apparently, ATT is having trouble coordinating their error reporting. It frustrates those at ATT who care.
Great suggestions noted by Rolf, above. I would add this.
1. Keep notes. When a problem is solved, asked them to describe it and then you write it down. ATT purges their history on a problem after 18 months. If you have a problem that tends to re-occur, you can speed things up by being able to tell them what card failed the last time and where. It's surprising how often problems reoccur at the same location.
2. Don't be afraid to ask for the ticket to be escalated. If you can get to Tier-2 or above help, your quality of service goes way up. You also usually get a direct dial number to report problems.
My present day experience has been that ATT is trying to troubleshoot their system from more and more remote locations via the internet. It is not uncommon for a tester to tell me that "he can't get into the switch." (By the way, you can ask that a ticket be directed to a specific CO).
While I'm not pleased with the way the "New ATT" works, I kind of feel for those folks there trying to do their jobs. They're like doctors trying to perform surgery over the telephone...and sometimes the phone works...sometimes it doesn't.
They went through an early out for money program a few years ago to cut costs. All the old line crafts folks took the money and ran. Most of them ran directly to the then new CLECs starting up. Often you get beter service from the CLEC because the tech had 25 years experience with Bell before he hired on. The wirelines are improving marginally, because now the new kids have a few years of experience.
Also, OKC, have you consiedered spread spectrum 2.4 or 5.8GHz? We have had Lynx systems in service for better than ten years one place and another in Atlanta and they're solid. I've had two lose output, and some of the litle power supplies fail over that time, I have 6 systems running over paths up to 20 miles or so. Several manufacturers make them now, ours are all Lynx radios, several folks have owned the company through mergers.
Yeah. I think a unlicensed system MAY work. It's 10km away. A mono STL would work in this case too I think. This thing is a lowly powered directional station so we run in mono anyway. Our main programming is talk. Price-wise, would it be less expensive for a new mono stl system, license included in the costs, or the unlicensed system? I have a pair of Tieline units already so getting audio in and out for the unlicensed wouldn't be an issue.
The copper is good question.
Tech showed up to fix a phone line recently. Had no idea where it went. Claimed ATT didn't own the lines anymore. High School. High School said they were nuts as it wasn't tied to their digital system.
For years we maintained a line at the gym plus off site extension at the football field. ATT installed, or their previous entity. Telco owns the lines to the demarc at the gym and field for maintenance. Tech cancelled the first visit because he claimed they were non owned lines then argued about the demarc. Supervisor made him return.
Tech tried to claim we had illegally run wire, the wires couldn't be repaired because they were non owned, etc but then on the 3rd visit found a problem at the pole off premise.
The end to this was a threat that tariffs didn't allow an off premise extension we have paid for for many years and we were charged for repairs that were covered by the wire maintenance plan.
Still working this out. Isn't what it used to be.
Tech showed up to fix a phone line recently. Had no idea where it went. Claimed ATT didn't own the lines anymore. High School. High School said they were nuts as it wasn't tied to their digital system.
For years we maintained a line at the gym plus off site extension at the football field. ATT installed, or their previous entity. Telco owns the lines to the demarc at the gym and field for maintenance. Tech cancelled the first visit because he claimed they were non owned lines then argued about the demarc. Supervisor made him return.
Tech tried to claim we had illegally run wire, the wires couldn't be repaired because they were non owned, etc but then on the 3rd visit found a problem at the pole off premise.
The end to this was a threat that tariffs didn't allow an off premise extension we have paid for for many years and we were charged for repairs that were covered by the wire maintenance plan.
Still working this out. Isn't what it used to be.
Document, document, document. First, file this one in writing with the PSC. With your docs. Then every time a gerbil appears, document. 'Who are you? What is your position with the Telco? Employee numberor other means of identification?" Keep a record. The SECOND you get a backtalk, escalate. "Get your supervisor on the phone NOW please". Relate the problem and threat to theSuper, ask for a different tech instanter.
They have acted the a$$holeto you, it is incumbent upon you to show them what an a$$hole truly is.
Rule number howevermany: NEVER pay the telco for fixing something. NEVER.
From your description, you've got a local wireline company who doesn't want to do things. The trick is to convince them, the easiest course of action for them to take is to fix whatever it is you are having problems with. Make their life truly miserable with the PSC and their higher ups until they realize this.
They have acted the a$$holeto you, it is incumbent upon you to show them what an a$$hole truly is.
Rule number howevermany: NEVER pay the telco for fixing something. NEVER.
From your description, you've got a local wireline company who doesn't want to do things. The trick is to convince them, the easiest course of action for them to take is to fix whatever it is you are having problems with. Make their life truly miserable with the PSC and their higher ups until they realize this.
You might try wireless unlicenced IP solutions. The "Bullet" radios from Ubiquity, http://www.ubnt.com/ work quite well. I have one going 6-7 miles and it works great. I'm sure it would go much farther with the right antennas. I have found that the Power Over Internet (POE) power supplies tend to fail when hit by lightning, but they are cheap to replace. You might buy a few spares. They are cheap enough.
If you can get a mono STL channel that is probably the best long-term solution. First, do a quick run of your path at http://kb9mwr.dyndns.org/n9zia/path.main.cgi Although--as "OKC RadioGuy" you may need a back hoe and a couple of loads of dirt to build a hill big enough to cause a problem...
You can find reliable STL-10 systems for around 1500 or less. Rick Neace down in Cleburne can rebuild them for you (rpu-stl.com); he sometimes has used systems for sale. For that matter, the older STL-8 systems are still type accepted--they may need the final transistor in the transmitter replaced as that usually dies from heat after a number of years.
If you are in a crowded (urban) RF environment, buy the Marti SC-48 dish for transmit. Very narrow, it's about $1K. Then you probably can use a cheaper or used receive dish such as a Scala paraflector or mini-flector.
The coordination process and filing fee will cost you about $450--folks up the road in Tulsa at RF Licensing (rflicensing.com) are good.
So, let's re-cap. STL: 1500; Antennas: Abt 1,600; Coordination/filing $450--total around $3500 plus coax. Once it is up, it is up. No on-going fees or other charges--you own the system.
You can find reliable STL-10 systems for around 1500 or less. Rick Neace down in Cleburne can rebuild them for you (rpu-stl.com); he sometimes has used systems for sale. For that matter, the older STL-8 systems are still type accepted--they may need the final transistor in the transmitter replaced as that usually dies from heat after a number of years.
If you are in a crowded (urban) RF environment, buy the Marti SC-48 dish for transmit. Very narrow, it's about $1K. Then you probably can use a cheaper or used receive dish such as a Scala paraflector or mini-flector.
The coordination process and filing fee will cost you about $450--folks up the road in Tulsa at RF Licensing (rflicensing.com) are good.
So, let's re-cap. STL: 1500; Antennas: Abt 1,600; Coordination/filing $450--total around $3500 plus coax. Once it is up, it is up. No on-going fees or other charges--you own the system.
- Status