Partly because those channel assignments were made when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
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Why I don't support KUOW, and how to fix it
- Thread starter LordAntler
- Start date
Partly because those channel assignments were made when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
Well Kelly, I can tell you my point of view on it if it at least helps to answer part of the outrage question. The scene is my grandparents' house, and I am in one of the bedrooms listening to a little radio. KMTT at the time had an ID that said "Downtown Seattle at 103.3, in Olympia at 104.1. Everywhere else at 103.7 The Mountain." So, this translator has been in place for at least 10 years and I'm just finding out about it now? Also, I've asked this before and have never gotten an answer, if that translator is so necisary for reception of the now KHTP downtown, then why did everyone not apply for translators in the same area around the same time as 103.7? If it fills in so much because of a bad tower location, then why don't at the very least KKWF, KISW, and KNDD also have translators?
The answer is simple: The channel allocation for a translator fit and Entercom applied for it while the window (and space) were open at the time. Once the allocation is filled, there isn't room for more. You snooze, you lose (or at least get a downtown translator). I can assure you it was being ID'd way back when it was installed, so you must have not been listening back then. Not the station's problem. It's like the silly talk of giving AM stations FM translators.. There simply isn't enough space to put them all and certainly not enough to even come close to duplicating all the AM station coverage areas.
Regarding your assumption that KHTP was concerned about a "bad tower location", what you probably don't remember is that translator was installed when KMTT was broadcasting from Three Sister's Mountain near Enumclaw. Of course some would claim that Three Sister's location covered better than where KHTP is on West Tiger currently from a height/square miles covered-perspective. That may be true, but that was also back when KMTT was still a Tacoma-centric station. The translator gave KMTT an advantage to buildings in Downtown Seattle. That same advantage still exists against the shadow into Downtown caused by Cougar Mt. in the way.
Regarding your assumption that KHTP was concerned about a "bad tower location", what you probably don't remember is that translator was installed when KMTT was broadcasting from Three Sister's Mountain near Enumclaw. Of course some would claim that Three Sister's location covered better than where KHTP is on West Tiger currently from a height/square miles covered-perspective. That may be true, but that was also back when KMTT was still a Tacoma-centric station. The translator gave KMTT an advantage to buildings in Downtown Seattle. That same advantage still exists against the shadow into Downtown caused by Cougar Mt. in the way.
Ok so a couple follow-up questions,
1. Now, with the FCC giving some priority to lpfm stations, the frequencies used for translators are not really available. However, it didn't always appear to be this way, or maybe I have that wrong as well. If I am right though, couldn't 93.7, 94.5, 95.3, 96.9, 97.7, possibly 98.5, 99.3, 101.1, 101.9, 104.1, 105.7, and 107.3 also have been applied for at the same time? That looks like enough frequencies to me, and it could very well be that 94.5 was originally applied for around the same time, all I know is that the first time I had heard of it was when it began rebroadcasting KMIH, though previous discussions on this board indicate that it did rebroadcast KCFL-LP before that.
2. When did KMTT move to Tiger? Even if they weren't there when I was born, stations have been in their current locations for most of my life.
1. Now, with the FCC giving some priority to lpfm stations, the frequencies used for translators are not really available. However, it didn't always appear to be this way, or maybe I have that wrong as well. If I am right though, couldn't 93.7, 94.5, 95.3, 96.9, 97.7, possibly 98.5, 99.3, 101.1, 101.9, 104.1, 105.7, and 107.3 also have been applied for at the same time? That looks like enough frequencies to me, and it could very well be that 94.5 was originally applied for around the same time, all I know is that the first time I had heard of it was when it began rebroadcasting KMIH, though previous discussions on this board indicate that it did rebroadcast KCFL-LP before that.
2. When did KMTT move to Tiger? Even if they weren't there when I was born, stations have been in their current locations for most of my life.
Hmmm, not sure about that. I believe translators for full power stations get priority over LPFM.
R
Radio-X
Guest
No outrage here...what I see is a translator that has become more valuable as the years go by. Like Edith Macefield when she moved to whats now known as the "Up" house in Ballard, she bought her house to be a house. As the neighborhood around her house increased in value, the house did as well. After several decades, it became more useful for developers to buy the house from her than keep it there and lose out on the potential income not as a house, but as "high density" commercial buildings. Ms. Macefield didn't budge, they built the building around her property so she could continue using the house as a house. When she died, it got sold to the developers anyway. She held out on offers over $1 million because she felt the money wasn't worth as much as being able to have the comfort of spending the last years of her life in the house she owned. Totally her choice, as she owned the place, but she could have bought a brand new house 5-10 blocks away and still had a couple hundred thousand left over if she had just sold out!
There is a point now with massive increases in population and workforce in downtown/SLU that this translator may have a greater purpose not for its original one as a fill-in, but as a "separate" station. It will still serve its purpose as a fill-in for 103.7 in perpetuity if so desired...the transmitter is on the same building Entercom has offices/studios at, so rental for the "tower space" is negligible. If its a one-bay antenna up there, electricity will run about $0.50/day to keep it powered.
That being said, is the purpose of keeping it as a 103.7 fill-in going to outweigh the potential income made by Entercom as a "new" station or picking up monthly income by renting it to another station?
As you said previously, we really can't tell who is listening to 103.3 vs 103.7, so its tough to put a number or dollar sign on the amount of listeners that will be lost. However, several co-owned stations (KISW is the worst offender) have poorer downtown signals than 103.7 does. They have been doing quite OK despite this fact.
The questions should be:
1) Does the translator provide a better financial return by translating KHTP, or translating either an HD2 or AM as a "separate" station?
2) If the answer is to make the station translate something besides KHTP, should Entercom spend the money on infrastructure and engineering to program it in-house or rent it out to another operator?
3) If rented out to another operator, would having a potential new competitor be worth the money made in leasing out 103.3?
If it were me, I'd be shopping the signal around to nearby non-comm stations. I would imagine both KUOW and NWPR would like that signal for separate reasons.
Radio-X
R
Radio-X
Guest
Kelly A, quick question as you were likely involved during this time:
Is all the equipment from KMTT still up there on 3 Sisters in the 'Claw? Is it true that site had no power going to it and was mostly accessible by chopper?
I did some research through SBE newsletters along with a couple of former engineers' websites. Found a pic on the of KBRD/KMTT's massive beige Continental 316F up there from the 80's (it appears) and some more recent photos of a white cinderblock shack used by Pierce County and a ham repeater. Tin roof is rusty as hell, and there's a shipping container grafted on the back for more equipment. Looks like the tower and FM antenna are still there...antenna is worse for wear now, but there is some sort of FM broadcast antenna up at the top!
Radio-X
Is all the equipment from KMTT still up there on 3 Sisters in the 'Claw? Is it true that site had no power going to it and was mostly accessible by chopper?
I did some research through SBE newsletters along with a couple of former engineers' websites. Found a pic on the of KBRD/KMTT's massive beige Continental 316F up there from the 80's (it appears) and some more recent photos of a white cinderblock shack used by Pierce County and a ham repeater. Tin roof is rusty as hell, and there's a shipping container grafted on the back for more equipment. Looks like the tower and FM antenna are still there...antenna is worse for wear now, but there is some sort of FM broadcast antenna up at the top!
Radio-X
It depends on the allocations available at the time and what would fit. There were/are many considerations when looking at preparing a translator application. Mainly it comes down to what the potential for co-channel, adjacent, and second adjacent interference to an existing full-class station, an unused allocation, or even Canadian station or allocation. There are a a lot of factors to consider, including an available location to put up a translator. And all this was even back when there were only fifty or sixty stations on the air in the Seattle-Tacoma market. As you know things are much more full now. In the day could other stations have applied and built translators to fill in coverage holes or shadows? Sure, and many did that you probably never even knew about. KZOK used to have a translator in West Seattle. KPLU had several translators, including one in Southworth near Bremerton. KJR-FM (KLTX at the time) had a translator in Olympia. KMTT had a second translator in Edmonds. It was up to the station licensee to determine whether a translator was worth pursuing, or even available. There was a lot of debate whether having a signal on a different channel caused confusion to listeners who relied on their radio preselects. Hell, who knows after all these years whether the translator I installed in downtown has even had a positive ratings or revenue impact that justifies the rent on an office building and tiny power bill. Probably will never know for sure, but it was an opportunity that Entercom thought was worth the try, especially with a transmitter site outside the market. Now factor-in LPFM's clogging up the band (sorry Steve) too.
I believe the station filed their 302 license application on W. Tiger in January of 1992.
Massive 316F? Okay.. It's true that the site was and probably still is 100% generator powered as was the case with KBRD-KMTT. We had two GMC 2 stroke diesel generators that were fed from a 10,000 gallon diesel tank. We would swap generators every week, changing the oil and filter of the generator that had been running the prior week. Several gallons of oil were used with each oil change. Each engine was rebuilt in place at the site once a year. Our Transmitter Engineer Stan Mc used to be a diesel mechanic, so he and the hired mechanic would each pitch in labor to rebuild an engine quickly so we had a backup generator as fast as possible.
We pulled everything out of the site, other than the original FM antenna. The 316 was degreased (diesel fumes used to get into the building, depending on the wind direction) and moved the transmitter to W. Tiger as a backup.
The only time a helicopter was used is during the winter months when the road was impassible by 4X4 or snow cat.
That is correct:
73.827 Interference to the input signals of FM translator or FM booster stations.
(a) An authorized LPFM station will not be permitted to continue to operate if an FM translator or FM booster station demonstrates that the LPFM
station is causing actual interference to the FM translator or FM booster station’s input signal, provided that the same input signal was in use at the
time the LPFM station was authorized.
(b) Complaints of actual interference by an LPFM station subject to paragraph (a) of this section must be served on the LPFM licensee and the Federal
Communications Commission, attention Audio Services Division. The LPFM station must suspend operations upon the receipt of such complaint unless the interference has been resolved to the satisfaction of the complainant on the basis of suitable techniques. Short test transmissions may be made during the period of suspended operation to check the efficacy of remedial measures. An LPFM station may only resume full operation at the direction of the Federal Communications Commission. If the Commission determines that the complainant has refused to permit the LPFM station to apply remedial techniques that demonstrably will eliminate the interference without impairment of the original reception, the licensee of the LPFM station is absolved of further responsibility for the complaint.
D
Darth_vader
Guest
Hello? Yeah, hi, guys. Umm, sidebar.
Amidst all the complaining here about KUOW, you lot should be thankful that you even have an NPR affiliate that's relevant to your area, let alone your own state.
I'd give money to KUOW if they had any over-the-air presence here (hell, even KFAE/KPBX under the same conditions) but we all know that ain't gonna happen. We all know that one of two things would happen if KUOW were to establish a presence here. (1) OPB would raise holy hell about "intrusion" in the market (i.e. lost funding) and push to get it shut down, or (2) absorb it and use it as yet another outlet for their agenda, because follow the money.
I refuse to stuff OPB's pockets because really, as a Washingtonian, why should I feel compelled to support Oregon's quasi-commercial state-run propaganda service/s? Over the air, there literally is no access to Washingtonian public media in this part of Washington. (We barely even have any actual Washingtonian *commercial* radio, for that matter.) If KUOW editing its programming is the worst thing you have to worry about, then you have it easy. Remember those of us here in the disenfranchised southwest and be grateful that you have it so good.
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Darth_vader
Guest
You mean you didn't listen to Evergreen?
And now that that's gone I guess my CD player will be working extra when in/driving through Seattle. (Or Pendleton.)
Several things here,
1. Is the former KMTT site the same one KMCQ used when it first signed on up here?
2. Well Bongwater, I'm not sure, but I would rather DX a unique signal playing whatever than having a weak simulcast of a station I can get just fine 2 channels up killing my ability to DX. The Up House analogy was great, thanks to whoever posted that.
3. No Darth, you obviously don't know me very well, I've never been a huge fan of those kinds of services, and besides I didn't have an account with them nor did I have a compatible receiver. It's kind of interesting, I didn't feel quite as disenfranchised when I lived down there last year as I thought I would.
1. Is the former KMTT site the same one KMCQ used when it first signed on up here?
2. Well Bongwater, I'm not sure, but I would rather DX a unique signal playing whatever than having a weak simulcast of a station I can get just fine 2 channels up killing my ability to DX. The Up House analogy was great, thanks to whoever posted that.
3. No Darth, you obviously don't know me very well, I've never been a huge fan of those kinds of services, and besides I didn't have an account with them nor did I have a compatible receiver. It's kind of interesting, I didn't feel quite as disenfranchised when I lived down there last year as I thought I would.
A quick history lesson; KRAB was a station that operated from 1962 to 1984 on 107.7 FM. KRAB was a complete outsider in Seattle radio, an independent public station that served not for ratings or any particular mass appeal, but KRAB was an outlet for anything no other station would be caught DEAD playing.
In many ways, KRAB laid out the programming template for "community" public radio and LPFM. To give those without a voice on the airwaves an outlet for their views and their music. Having a 100,000 watt signal from an ancient homebrew FM transmitter long past it's functional life (Kelly and the other longtime engineers here can give you the inside on that) KRAB had very few listeners. They never had ratings and they were perpetually bankrupt financially. They only existed to be an alternative to anything on the airwaves. And that, they most definitely were. You could hear Yiddish polka music one hour, reggae the next, hardcore punk, UW lectures, performance artists and anything you simply would NEVER hear anyplace else on the Seattle radio dial. Eventually, the station went so far into debt, they had no other choice than to sell their frequency to a commercial broadcasting corporation in 1984 and after seven years of soft AC and oldies as KMGI, they became KNDD. You can find more on them here plus hours of vintage KRAB audio for your listening and dancing pleasure: http://krab.fm/
My point was if all these little LPFMs (which I always personally called The Revenge of KRAB) were consolidated into one full power outlet, you would have something like KRAB. Today, people in general are far more open to alternative points of view, unusual ideas and obscure music than they were in the '70s and '80s and a station like KRAB today COULD actually have a chance at survival in today's world than they ever could back then. And those LPFM frequencies could be freed up for AM simulcasts or HD FM translators. The problem of course, is picking a sacrificial lamb of a station for this. And of course, NO ONE wants to go there. And you will still lose your ability to DX. But in my view, it's the only way to give everyone (well, ALMOST everyone) what they want.
Its founder was a guy named Lorenzo Milam, who went on to write several books, including the important "Sex & Broadcasting" handbook that everyone should own. I have a paperback copy myself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenzo_Milam
I have a copy of his other book The Radio Papers: From KRAB to KCHU. I've also read Sex & Broadcasting. He's a very brilliant and articulate guy who's definitely left his mark on radio. The only real fault I see with Lorenzo Milam and KRAB was they were just way too far ahead of their time. What was obscure and controversial back then is actually pretty mainstream today.
R
Radio-X
Guest
The big question, with the FCC's "AM Revitalization Plan" that just came out, is will any of these new crop of LPFMs actually take off?
As they have absolutely no protection to translators, I could see several of these "gobbled up". Some of the engineering has been done already, and the way it appears to be worded allows a translator (such as 107.3 in Enumclaw) to be purchased and moved to an AM station's 5mv/m contour. Assuming that translator gets moved to Seattle metro to translate...say KIXI-AM, you'd be forcing the new Ballard LPFM to sign off or find a new frequency.
In the next year or so, there will be a translator auction which will gobble up most of the remaining free space on the dial.
I think this idea that all the LPFM's (baby KRABs) combine into one full-power (super KRAB?) station isn't too far fetched. They may be forced to given the upcoming situation...not that much is available for sale now...or that most of these organizations are well-funded or well-planned enough to combine + purchase one.
Radio-X
As they have absolutely no protection to translators, I could see several of these "gobbled up". Some of the engineering has been done already, and the way it appears to be worded allows a translator (such as 107.3 in Enumclaw) to be purchased and moved to an AM station's 5mv/m contour. Assuming that translator gets moved to Seattle metro to translate...say KIXI-AM, you'd be forcing the new Ballard LPFM to sign off or find a new frequency.
In the next year or so, there will be a translator auction which will gobble up most of the remaining free space on the dial.
I think this idea that all the LPFM's (baby KRABs) combine into one full-power (super KRAB?) station isn't too far fetched. They may be forced to given the upcoming situation...not that much is available for sale now...or that most of these organizations are well-funded or well-planned enough to combine + purchase one.
Radio-X
LPFM stations are completely different allocations with a unique application process. If an existing LPFM goes belly-up or isn't constructed (which has become pretty common lately), then the allocation for the LPFM for that area remains.
As I mentioned above, LPFM channels and allocations stand alone which is a small part of the problem. In congested-signal markets, there simply isn't enough space to provide translators around the Metro for all the AM stations in a market. It has little to do with LPFM's per se, since the idea behind LPFM stations are to provide unique community-based programming to under-served smaller communities. AM stations that will benefit from the whole FM translator option, will be those small and medium market AM stations, where the congestion is much less. Remember too, just because a translator exists in a place like Enumclaw, doesn't mean you can just move it. The translator application would still have to meet the minimum spacing requirements for co-channel, through third adjacency inside of a full power FM station.
My larger concern is if the Commission tries to shoehorn in more allocations to already congested markets. All that will do is AM-ifying the FM band, equally eroding the listening experience by creating so much more interference.
I'm writing this from Tampa Florida, where this area is a prime example of a jumbled mess of signals that interfere with each other. When driving around last night, I was frustrated by the amount of in and out of market signals interfering with each other and finally switched over to streaming on my phone. If the Commission keep going down this trying to satisfy everyone by only hiring lawyers-mentality and leaving the proper engineering and spectrum management out of the mix, they will drive even FM to an early grave.
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