Why night time AM HD radio is on hold.

[vsa]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/

 

[davideduardo]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

Mexico is authorizing HD stations, starting on the border; several are already on the air. And there are both AM and FM HDs operating with "experimental permits" in the capital.

 

[vsa]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

Mexico is authorizing HD stations, starting on the border; several are already on the air. And there are both AM and FM HDs operating with "experimental permits" in the capital.

XHTY(FM) in Tijuana, Mexico at 99.7 FM is also testing HD radio. No nighttime AM-HD jammers that I know of though. Can't wait for Baja California AM blowtorches XETRA 690 and XEPRS 1090 to fire up HD jammers. 

 

[davideduardo]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

Mexico is authorizing HD stations, starting on the border; several are already on the air. And there are both AM and FM HDs operating with "experimental permits" in the capital.

100 kw XEN in Mexico City on 690 is HD day and night.


XHTY(FM) in Tijuana, Mexico at 99.7 FM is also testing HD radio. No nighttime AM-HD jammers that I know of though. Can't wait for Baja California AM blowtorches XETRA 690 and XEPRS 1090 to fire up HD jammers.

 

[semoochie]

It isn't just nighttime AM but rather the whole system that's being held up. You'd think there'd be an official announcement by now if there is a delay.

 

[calstymes]

semoochie mused:

You'd think there'd be an official announcement by now if there is a delay.

Yes, you would think so, wouldn't you?

This is yet another indication that all things are not so well in the world of AM IBOC and that there are problems occurring behind the scenes that are being kept quiet and about which the public is not being made aware.

I know that you have been excitedly waiting for AM IBOC to appear full time but perhaps you might want to sell your AM IBOC receiver NOW while there are still AM IBOC exciters being used.

 

[hipporadio]

...perhaps you might want to sell your AM IBOC receiver NOW while there are still AM IBOC exciters being used.

I know a gentleman on the South Carolina coast that might gladly trade his gift of a Sangean HDR-1 “HD” table model for the better-performing [and sounding] Sangean WR-2 at near-half the price! Despite its pedigree as “best of class”, his HDR-1 CANNOT lock onto “HD” from ANY of four Charleston 100kw FMs traveling a mere 40-miles over water and ruler-flat salt-marsh.

I remain amazed at the the “HD apologists” on this site who continue to celebrate their own personal reception experiences with the latest “flavor-of-the-month” “HD” receiver – while the overwhelming balance of the broader [non-broadcast] public remains uninterested or [to a much-lesser extent] unsatisfied – choosing to return an over-priced under-performing product to the dusty retail shelves that harbor it!

What brand(s)/model(s) did you purchase?

One BA, one Accurian, one Radiosophy

“HD” radio #1 [once celebrated] is now “discontinued”... “HD” radio #2 [championed as “the common-man’s HD breakthrough” is about to be “discontinued”... And the very company marketing “HD” radio #3 may-well discontinue itself :-*

 

[w9wi]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

Is there any way that publication in the Federal Register can be delayed once rules are released? (isn't it just a formality?)

It just looks to me like the Federal Register is unbelievably S-L-O-W.

The 3rd DTV Periodic Review was released by the FCC on April 25th. It was published in the Register on July 10th. That's a delay of 76 days. There is no significant controversy in the Periodic Review.

The IBOC rules were released on the last day of May. 76 days after that would be August 15th. So at least at this point, the IBOC rules are *not* late by comparison to other unrelated FCC actions.

(doesn't mean there won't be international issues, but it looks like those are going to be resolved in some other manner)

 

[Tom Wells]

C'mon, let's get this train wreck on the road! I can still hear some out-of-market signals.
I can hardly wait until my AM radios perform as poorly as my cellphone.

By the way, some of you may have heard your digital cellphones blasting into nearby audio amplifiers.
When they "check in" with the local tower, or when put into use, they generate a bup-dudda- bup-dudda bup-bzz-bzz noise.
It is often strong enough to walk right into the AF circuits of radios 10 feet away.
Yesterday I heard this coming over the audio from a traffic chopper. It was not my cellphone/car radio.
It was on the feed to the station. Walked right into the audio, and out it went on the 50kw.

Question is, has anyone experienced HD AM dropping out from nearby cellphones?
It would seem the signal is a good deal louder than most lightning interference.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Numerous posters have wondered why the FCC's authorization of night time AM HD radio operation has not yet been published in the Federal Register. There has been some speculation that international treaties may be involved. That thought is correct - particularly with Mexico. More at the link below:

Mexico is authorizing HD stations, starting on the border; several are already on the air. And there are both AM and FM HDs operating with "experimental permits" in the capital.

XHTY(FM) in Tijuana, Mexico at 99.7 FM is also testing HD radio. No nighttime AM-HD jammers that I know of though. Can't wait for Baja California AM blowtorches XETRA 690 and XEPRS 1090 to fire up HD jammers.

Obviously Mexican HD radio transmissions and experimental HD radio authorizations are just another form of Mexican revenge, and not the enthusiastic embrace of HD radio that supporters have been peddling everywhere.

Let's hope they fire up HD radio on all those "border blasters" soon.

 

[semoochie]

Thank you w9wi, that's the kind of explanation I was looking for. I was thinking the information was released on May 31st.

 

[davideduardo]

Obviously Mexican HD radio transmissions and experimental HD radio authorizations are just another form of Mexican revenge,

No, that is not the reason. The owners of stations on the US border asked the SCT to authorize HD in the border zone because, otherwise, these stations were at a competitive disadvantage with US stations. In other words, they believe HD is of some considerable value and wanted to have it.

and not the enthusiastic embrace of HD radio that supporters have been peddling everywhere.

Several dozen Mexican border FMs are going HD... to better compete on both sides of the border.

Let's hope they fire up HD radio on all those "border blasters" soon.

There are no border blasters left. The last two, XERF and XELO are now much lower powered. XERF went from 250 kw to 17 kw, and recently increased to 100 kw, which is hardly superpower these days, especially on 1570. XELO, later XEROK, is no longer 150 kw and runs a single 50 kw transmitter at about 30 kw to save electricity.

The next closest station, XEG Monterrey, is supposedly 150 kw but running less than 100 kw and serving local Monterrey audiences only.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Obviously Mexican HD radio transmissions and experimental HD radio authorizations are just another form of Mexican revenge,

No, that is not the reason. The owners of stations on the US border asked the SCT to authorize HD in the border zone because, otherwise, these stations were at a competitive disadvantage with US stations. In other words, they believe HD is of some considerable value and wanted to have it.

and not the enthusiastic embrace of HD radio that supporters have been peddling everywhere.

Several dozen Mexican border FMs are going HD... to better compete on both sides of the border.

Let's hope they fire up HD radio on all those "border blasters" soon.

There are no border blasters left. The last two, XERF and XELO are now much lower powered. XERF went from 250 kw to 17 kw, and recently increased to 100 kw, which is hardly superpower these days, especially on 1570. XELO, later XEROK, is no longer 150 kw and runs a single 50 kw transmitter at about 30 kw to save electricity.

The next closest station, XEG Monterrey, is supposedly 150 kw but running less than 100 kw and serving local Monterrey audiences only.

Well that's a real stinkin' shame. Where are those 500,000 watt stations when we need them for decent coverage with HD radio?
Perhaps they could just broadcast 500,000 watts of pure HD radio buzz 5 channels wide and just forget about "obsolete old analog."

How are Mexican stations at a competitive disadvantage by not broadcasting in HD radio when hardly any HD radios have been sold in the USA, and even fewer HD radios in Mexico and Canada?

If a tree falls on someone who is not carrying an Arbitron diary or PPM, does it matter, Eduardo?

 

[davideduardo]

Well that's a real stinkin' shame. Where are those 500,000 watt stations when we need them for decent coverage with HD radio?

The need for AMs with big night signals disappeared when TV took over night entertainment time 50 years ago.

The only 500 kw station was Doc Brinkley's XERA, the predecessor of XERF. The next closest is Trans World Radio in Bonaire, 500 kw from the 60s through the early 90's, but now a more modest 100 kw. There were short-lived million watt AMs in Costa Rica and Venezuela, but they were impractical and costly.

How are Mexican stations at a competitive disadvantage by not broadcasting in HD radio when hardly any HD radios have been sold in the USA, and even fewer HD radios in Mexico and Canada?

The border broadcasters petitioned the SCT saying not having HD, over time, would be a significant competitive disadvantage as HD grew over the years. The SCT agreed, and authorized usage in the border zone. Mexican radio, far more consolidated than the US, plans far better for the future than many US broadcasters.

If a tree falls on someone who is not carrying an Arbitron diary or PPM, does it matter, Eduardo?

The Mexican stations, in their majority, are concerned that American-side stations would affect their audience in Mexico itself. Many of the Mexican border markets are larger than the US ones on the "other side" so these stations are protecting their home market. The first Tijuana HD staiton is in Spanish programmed for Tijuana, a market of 2 million.

 

[tomservo]

By the way, some of you may have heard your digital cellphones blasting into nearby audio amplifiers.
When they "check in" with the local tower, or when put into use, they generate a bup-dudda- bup-dudda bup-bzz-bzz noise.
It is often strong enough to walk right into the AF circuits of radios 10 feet away.
Yesterday I heard this coming over the audio from a traffic chopper. It was not my cellphone/car radio.
It was on the feed to the station. Walked right into the audio, and out it went on the 50kw.

Question is, has anyone experienced HD AM dropping out from nearby cellphones?
It would seem the signal is a good deal louder than most lightning interference.

I'm interested too if this cellphone noise is messing with the HD - but somehow I doubt it.

I used to hear awful noise on my shortwave back when an old job of mine required the outside workers to carry Nextels. The chup-chup-chup from them using the 2-way feature could be heard for 30 feet or more.

The biggest offenders these days seems to be GSM handsets on the 850 MHz band (in other words, mostly Cingular/AT&T network phones). I recently switched from T-Mobile (1900 MHz) to AT&T and the level of interference from the exact same phone has gone waaay up. Whereas I might hear a barely audible chirp before an incoming call, now the phone practically takes over the little cheapie amplified computer speakers, causes squiggly lines all over my monitor and even finds its way into my 5-channel mixer board a few feet away.

The silver lining is that it's nice to actually hear the buzz through my car stereo's speakers when I get a call, since I cannot hear the ringer sometimes. :

I can just imagine the HD-AM dropping everytime my phone communicates with the tower -- every 5 minutes.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I found this somewhat technical explanation on a broadcast engineering remailer I subscribe to...the clearest explanation yet of why AM-IBOC is on hold, and ought to be placed there permanently. The author is a Canadian broadcast engineer:

"Nighttime operation will be very ugly. The interference problems are inherent
in the system design, and cannot be eliminated by 'tuning' the sites. Sure,
a site with pattern bandwidth problems could make the interference even
worse, but that's beside the point.

"Picture this: There are currently about 212 AM stations running IBOC, and
that means 424 new digital "stations" on the band. For a 50 kW station, each
pair of new digital "stations" has an interference-causing potential
equivalent to a 5 kW analog station. Normally, a new station would not be
authorized unless an engineering study can show that it does no harm, i.e.,
it will not increase the NIF (nighttime interference free) contour of any
existing stations. But digital "stations" are exempt from such criteria, and
thus free to run roughshod over other stations.

"I've done some studies of the expected effects of IBOC interference on AM
stations in Canada. Even assuming that no additional stations adopt AM IBOC,
and that all IBOC stations are perfectly "tuned", the picture isn't pretty.
In one of the most egregious cases, a Canadian Class A that currently has a
NIF of 3.2 mV/m is projected to have a NIF of 23.9 mV/m when nighttime IBOC
comes! Another Class A will go from a NIF of 2.7 to 8.1 mV/m, and a third
Class A will go from 3.0 to 14.5 mV/m. A Class B I looked at goes from a NIF
of 10.4 to 26.4 mV/m. Totally outrageous! All established allocation rules
and international agreements simply go out the window when nighttime AM IBOC
comes.

"This dog won't hunt... it just goes out and craps in all the yards of its
neighbors."

In addition, this from Radio World: The Mexican telecom agency, the Federal Telecommunications Commission, has filed a formal protest with the FCC, asking that implementation of AM-IBOC and FM-IBOC with extended hybrid mode be stopped for now. It would appear that such operation would violate international treaties to which the United States is a signatory. Here's the article: http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0121/t.7715.html

 

[Tom Wells]

Regarding the cellphones, mine is an AT&T/Cingular. I had the cellphone sitting on the dash of the car once.
This car is 42 yrs old, so when you turn things off, they are OFF. I was in the car looking at something, and I began to hear the
characteristic rhythmic buzzing, over the dashboard speaker, while everything was off.
There is enough energy to couple into the voice coil of a speaker in a loaded circuit!

I do believe the AM HD will drop out every time this GSM system "checks in" or operates.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I do believe the AM HD will drop out every time this GSM system "checks in" or operates.

It certainly is an interesting phenomenon the first few times you hear it - I didn't know what was going on with my car radio when I drove the vast expanses of West Texas. Every few minutes, the cell phones went seeking for service they would never find.

Incidentally - I found one of those stretches of road with NO local radio service, AM or FM. The highway from Clayton to Raton in New Mexico. Seek on both bands cycles over and over again, doesn't stop on anything. I am sure the residents of Capulin, Des Moines, Grenville, and Mount Dora NM are eagerly awaiting nighttime AM HD radio - jamming their contact with the outside world. Oh wait - those poverty stricken folks can all buy $200 HD radios. Or they subscribe to satellite - or they have wideband internet. Or do they - I don't seem to remember seeing any satellite TV dishes on the shacks.

May HD radio advocates drive up Capulin volcano in white cars, wearing white - and be loved to death by thousands of the harmless false cinch bugs that swarm there.

 

[TheRover]

I HATE AM-HD Radio ! ! ! !

I do not like it at all !! I have no use for talk radio or sports radio to be in HD on AM ! ! !

What I need is a receiver smart enough to program out all HD AM reception by default. I would then like to ba able to have the receiver remember to havd the HD on one the one and only AM station that I need HD on, that being a Classic Oldies station that plays standards from the last 60 years. That's it !!

I THINK AM HD for talk radio and sports radio SUCKS !

I do not like the sound of AM HD "Talk" radio. I find the transition to the AM HD signal disturbing. My JVC receiver allows to block HD reception for the station you are tuned to, but once you leave, it defaults back to HD on.

When I tune into AM talk radio, I am listening from the get-go, and I do not have the time or inclination to wait through the transition process to the $#@*$# AM HD sound !

This will all be fixed when receier makers get enough input from consumers about what serves them best.

 

[radiopilot]

I HATE AM-HD Radio ! ! ! !

I do not like it at all !! I have no use for talk radio or sports radio to be in HD on AM ! ! !

What I need is a receiver smart enough to program out all HD AM reception by default. I would then like to ba able to have the receiver remember to havd the HD on one the one and only AM station that I need HD on, that being a Classic Oldies station that plays standards from the last 60 years. That's it !!

I THINK AM HD for talk radio and sports radio SUCKS !

I do not like the sound of AM HD "Talk" radio. I find the transition to the AM HD signal disturbing. My JVC receiver allows to block HD reception for the station you are tuned to, but once you leave, it defaults back to HD on.

When I tune into AM talk radio, I am listening from the get-go, and I do not have the time or inclination to wait through the transition process to the $#@*$# AM HD sound !

This will all be fixed when receier makers get enough input from consumers about what serves them best.

I was listening to 1290 WTKS Savannah talk show - George Noory Coast to Coast and this station is exclusively listened to for decades on a very good signal, last night as I was taking a trip to Florida, the signal was garbled, almost un-intelligable and I had to change it to 1110 AM, little to my surprise they were testing the HD nighttime signal and wanted listeners to chime in with their HD radios and also the ones listening with analog radios. As soon as they turned off the HD signal 1290 WTKS came in exactly as it has for decades... what this proves in a nutshell is that IBOC HD transmissions causes interference and garbled garbage across the AM band.

Radiopilot