Why Not Another 20 Years?

[musicrrrr]

Here's a topic I haven't seen anyone address on the board (if you can believe it.)

OK, I get the old folks/ demographics/ sponsors/ AM music thing...I think most of us here understand it...but there is an inconsistency that I think is an interesting topic of conversation.

Correct me if I'm wrong...but generally speaking, there is about a 20 year generation gap between listeners of Adult Standards and Real Oldies, correct?
If this is the case, then why have the Standards and Real Oldies AM's disappeared at approximately the same time period?

Follow the logic...if within the last couple of years the time has come to retire the Standards stations that target the older demographics, then shouldn't the Real Oldies stations have about another 20 years until THEIR demographics reach a certain age?

If the demographics that listened to Standards oriented WPEN supported sponsors until 2004, then it would make sense to me that the demographics that listen to a Real Oldies format should be able to support that format for approximately another 20 years.

But this isn't the case...the Standards/ Real Oldies stations have been disappearing typically within a couple of years of each other.

You might argue that Satellite radio is a contributing factor, but I don't that's the answer (at least not entirely)...Sirius and XM aren't household names just yet.

Any thoughts?

 

[MikefromDelaware]

It may have to do with who's making these decisions today vs a few years ago. My guess is a new breed (read that Gen X,Y,Z'ers)who aren't interested in the older demos at all, thus eliminating that 20 year period you mentioned. They're the same group who doesn't care if Social Security is funded as they don't believe it will be there for them. Rather than fixing the system so that it will be there now for the boomers and also for their time years from now they'd simply through out the baby with the bathwater. This comment isn't intended to drag us into a Social Security debate, it's an analogy to go along with the earlier comment.

> Here's a topic I haven't seen anyone address on the board
> (if you can believe it.)
>
> OK, I get the old folks/ demographics/ sponsors/ AM music
> thing...I think most of us here understand it...but there is
> an inconsistency that I think is an interesting topic of
> conversation.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong...but generally speaking, there is
> about a 20 year generation gap between listeners of Adult
> Standards and Real Oldies, correct?
> If this is the case, then why have the Standards and Real
> Oldies AM's disappeared at approximately the same time
> period?
>
> Follow the logic...if within the last couple of years the
> time has come to retire the Standards stations that target
> the older demographics, then shouldn't the Real Oldies
> stations have about another 20 years until THEIR
> demographics reach a certain age?
>
> If the demographics that listened to Standards oriented WPEN
> supported sponsors until 2004, then it would make sense to
> me that the demographics that listen to a Real Oldies format
> should be able to support that format for appromimately
> another 20 years.
>
> But this isn't the case...the Standards/ Real Oldies
> stations have been disappearing typically within a couple of
> years of each other.
>
> You might argue that Satellite radio is a contributing
> factor, but I don't that's the answer (at least not
> entirely)...Sirius and XM aren't household names just yet.
>
> Any thoughts?
>

 

[FloridaBear1776]

Maybe the Gen-Xers are mad because their headbanger music wasn't on the radio, or was on some Z-Rock AM station during their formative years, as too many FMs chased Classic Rock and Oldies audiences during the late 80s - early 90s. Perhaps this is their shot at revenge.

Boomers love radio, X-ers hate radio, Y-ers and Z-ers say "what's radio?"

 

[John1]

In the 1960's most music stations on AM gave way to top 40 rock & roll or "chicken rock" MOR, and FM was either classical or instrumental easy listening. For the WWII generation, the popular music of their generation was pretty much off the radio for about 20 years (except for a few specialty shows) until stations like WPEN brought back the "nostalgia" format (as it was first called before "adult standards") in the late '70's-early '80s. When it came back it was mixed with newer songs that were familiar to the adults who had listened to MOR on stations like WIP - Carpenters, Humperdink, Jones, James Taylor, etc. The sound was so "fresh" that it quickly became popular with that audience.

Baby boomers never really lost their music - it was continually on the radio somewhere through the years. Also, as radio formats grew, the audience became splintered - pop, top 40, album rock, soul, etc. Boomers were more open to new musical styles, so this audience is today spread out over a number of stations, from classic rock, to smmoth jazz to country to AC, plus AAA ststions like XPN.
I work with a woman in her 60's who loves oldies and goes to live doo-wop shows at the Keswick but she listens to WBEB all day. This generation just isn't as predictable or nostalgic as the previous one, and prpbably wouldn't go back to music on AM even if they liked it better than what was playing on FM.

Being in part of that age bracket, I find my musical tastes all over the map, and there is something on Sirius for almost all those moods.

 

[bierkenstock]

HERE'S WHY!

So many fallacies. Where to begin?

This is the Philadelphia board. Not Oldies, Standards or any other board. Many markets still have Oldies stations, Jammin' Oldies, 70's Oldies, Real Oldies, Standards, Big Band or Nostalgia stations. The Philadelphia market has fewer stations per capita than most other major markets. Some formats get left out.

Philadelphia had a Standards station until September, 2004. Greater Media is a poorly programmed, poorly managed operation. Most owners would have flipped much sooner. Their disastrous flip to semi-Real Oldies was ill-advised, badly handled, badly promoted and badly programmed.

It has been almost 10 years since WW1 and ABC "updated" their repsective "Nostalgia" formats with playlists more accurately called AC Oldies (from the late 60's and the 70's - the same period now covered by the Oldies format). It has been 14 years since "the music died" on arguably that nation's premiere - and best - standards station, New York's WNEW.

Human beings are not like Cicadas. Cicadas come out every 17 years and breed the next generation. Humans breed all the time. Generations are arbitrary lines on a calendar. Some guy wrote a book and made it all up. Is your birthdate December 31, 1945? You are part of the depression-WW2 Generation, even though you never experienced either one. January 1, 1946? Congratulations. You're a baby boomer. Do the math: The teen agers who bought Elvis records, the listeners to pre-Payola scandal top 40 radio (like Wibbage), were mostly pre-boomers.

Back in the pre-BI era, supposedly covered by the Real Oldies format, Top 40 stations - including Wibbage - played a mix of early Rock (the stuff Real Oldies stations now play) and MOR (the stuff Standards stations now play). MOR stations did not play rock hits (they mixed non-rock hits with then-standards). But Top 40 stations did play MOR. People who grew up with what we now call Real Oldies also grew up with what we now call Standards.

Real Oldies is a relatively new format. It started in the late 90's as Oldies stations moved their playlists forward in time to keep their sights on the money demos (about the same time Nostalgia stations - including WPEN - and format providers like WW1 and ABC moved their playlists forward). Real Oldies is music Oldies stations like WOGL used to play (again up to the mid-late 90's).

Real Oldies never did all that well in almost every market in which it was tried. WWKB, Buffalo was only Real Oldies for about three years. Numbers were OK but sales were never that great. Real Oldies only delayed the inevitable; the end of music on AM.

Lest we forget, Philadelphia still has an FM Oldies station. Other markets do not. Or do they? Listen to what Sunny and Ben/Jack play. It's Oldies by another name. Here again, the period their playlists cover has continued to move forward in time. But they do what Oldies stations have always done: Play music from 10 to 30 years ago. They have simply re-positioned themselves to get away from the Oldies image and better appeal to today's money demo listeners.

Note to Mike From Delaware: The idea of targeting younger demographic segments started in the late 60's. Young Baby Boomers invented this idea - Not Gen X'ers and Y'ers.

What really has killed Standards/Real Oldies and even Classic Country on AM, however, is the explosion in talk radio syndication. Before the availability of satellite-syndicated talk (with ABC's Talk Network in 1981) there were fewer than a hundred talk stations in the country. The number grew dramatically, especially after the success of Rush Limbaugh, who launched in 1988. But until the end of the 90's, only enough talk product was available to support one - at most two - talk stations per market. In the last few years there has been a huge jump in the numbers of players in talk radio, including conservative talk, progressive talk, advice talk, lifestyle talk, and sports talk. Even small stations can program talk with the availability of 24/7 automation-friendly satellite-delivered talk formats (offering features to stations like the satellite-delivered music formats). Talk radio programs often pay for clearances. Stations with just a computer and a transmitter can make money doing little or no local sales. AM is better suited to talk than music. Talk is just as easy, gets better audiences and - more importantly - better profits.

And spare us any lectures on radio stations' "greed." To freely-paraphrase Matthew 7:3-5. First go to your boss, customers or clients and offer to work for less money. Also stop shopping for the best price. And if your financial nest-egg includes any stocks, sell them. Those companies are being managed so your stock will go up and you will get dividends (which is why you bought it) - just like Clear Channel, Citadel, CBS and the rest of the companies in radio.

And if you like music from the 40's, 50's and 60's, it is still there. Satellite radio. Cable/satellite TV music channels. Internet audio streams. MP3 players. All these complaints about Oldies and Standards stations flipping sounds like kvetching from old f*rts upset that world keeps changing. Well, change is the only constant in the universe.

 

[radiophile]

Re: HERE'S WHY!

> What really has killed Standards/Real Oldies and even
> Classic Country on AM, however, is the explosion in talk
> radio syndication.

Agreed, BUT: Many N/T stations skew old also, with mostly 55+ sometimes even mostly 65+ audiences. So why do these N/T stations get better advertiser support than standards or real oldies stations?

Discuss.

 

[galaxie]

Re: HERE'S WHY!

> Back in the pre-BI era, supposedly covered by the Real
> Oldies format, Top 40 stations - including Wibbage - played
> a mix of early Rock (the stuff Real Oldies stations now
> play) and MOR (the stuff Standards stations now play). MOR
> stations did not play rock hits (they mixed non-rock hits
> with then-standards). But Top 40 stations did play MOR.
> People who grew up with what we now call Real Oldies also
> grew up with what we now call Standards.


I agree with almost all of your observations, and they were all very well though out.

However (you knew that was coming) most of the "Top 40 rock 'n' roll" oriented stations in the pre-BI era were heavily dayparted. More MOR in the midday when the kids (those now in their mid to late 50's and 60's were in school. When the kids got out of school PM drive and 7 to midnight were almost exclusively rock and teen pop oriented.

This situation lasted even through the post BI period.

Now it is true that for example, on WINS in New York you would hear Murray the K. Play the Ronnettes followed by "Hello Dolly" by Louis Armstrong, most of the MOR product was still played in the midday. Even when, as a teen, I heard Louis Armstron on WINS or WARM, or any other top 40 station of the day I knew that was one of "my parent's artists". I may not have minded hearing it, but it was not MY music. It was and is the music of the people who are now in their 70's and 80's. The vast majority of the music played on top 40 stations in that day (during times that teens and pre-teens would listen) was rock and teen oriented pop. That is why we listened - not for the occasional Frank Sinatra or Tony Bennett record. We listened in spite of them.

It was no different than watching Elvis, Paul Anka or the Beatles on Ed Sullivan mixed in with Jerry Vale, Jo Stafford, Al Martino or whoever. Even though they were on the same show, the teens and pre-teens at that time tuned in for Elvis, Paul Anka and the Beatles. None of the teenagers sat around on Monday morning talking about Sophie Tucker's performance last night on Sullivan. In other words, even though they were on the same venue it was very clear who MY artists were and who my PARENT'S artists were. And there was a big difference between the two.

Another factor to consider is that only the very top "crossover" songs by the so called MOR artists of the day that were played on Top 40 radio. Crossovers of both MOR and Country were part of top 40 radio from the get go, and this lasted well through much of the 70's. "It's Impossible" by Perry Como, "Strangers in the Night" - Frank and Nancy Sinatra, "I Left My Heart In San Francisco" - Tony Bennett are examples on the MOR side. "The Happiest Girl in the Whole USA" - Donna Fargo, and "Big Bad John" - Jimmy Dean would be examples of the Country side of Top 40.

But, all of those artists had a ton of MOR or Country hits and albums respectively. People who really wanted to hear that sort of music (in depth) had to go to the MOR/Big Band oriented station (or the country station) - you guessed it "My Parent's stations!

While most, but not all, of the "Real Oldies" stations of recent times had many flaws in a variety of areas (which would take us another three days to hash out on a market by market basis) it is misleading to think that for example just because a Top 40 station played "Big Bad John" that the teenagers who listened to it were really into (or even liked) 1960's country music. They tolerated Jimmy Dean because Jan and Dean were not far behind!

By the way I was born in 1949, my freshman year in High School was 1963, so for one year of High School and all of Junion High and grade school my influence was pre-Beatle rock. Then from 1964 on it was BI, Mowtown, Soul etc..