WHYY-FM still is beating WPHT and WNTP

[MikefromDelaware]

The PPM meters continue to show that WHYY-FM's NPR news/talk/info format beats WPHT and WNTP's newstalk formats by significant numbers. The live and local format doesn't seem to have helped WPHT. One thought, would it make a difference if WPHT or for that matter WNTP were on FM rather than AM? The Philly audience just won't put up with AM. Or is it that the Philly metro market is more lib and issues oriented talk than rightwing and conservative political talk be it syndicated or local? Thoughts anyone.

 

[aindik]

WHYY has a much higher AQH share than WPHT but their cume is only slightly higher (424,700 versus 399,200). IOW, WHYY gets its ratings advantage over WPHT not from having more listeners, but from having its listeners spend more time listening than WPHT's listeners spend. Not airing any commercials helps them with TSL immensely.

WHYY has a 3.8. Every other station with a 3.8 or thereabout has twice as many people in the cume, or more.

 

[John1]

I think the intelligent level of news block programming at morning & eveing rush hours makes them attractive to a large audience of middle class commuters who are interested in longer form news stories compared to the rapid/repeating/ticking news on KYW or the one sided talk on 1210 & 990. Despite claims of 'liberal' leanings NPR does not do the name-calling, insult-throwing, kissing up to the hosts type talk shows as heard on most conservative and liberal commercial talk stations. They do try and balance guests and opinions & it comes off more mainstream & thoughtful than talk radio.

 

[musichead1029]

Different types of stations. WPHT and WNTP are commercial political talk stations whereas NPR has news and long form general interest news-talk. The NPR TSL is high because, outside of the top and bottom of the hour newscasts, most of NPR's programming is longform, requiring listeners' attention for at least 10 minutes. That kind of programming appeals to a certain type of listener, and because they can't get it anywhere else, they are very loyal to NPR. In addition to having few commercial interruptions, NPR programming doesn't constantly get pre-empted by brokered sports events like PHT and NTP.

Of course short form news also has its appeal - KYW's share is twice WHYY's and the KYW cume is nearly 3 times WHYY's.

PHT's 6+ ratings appear to have dipped 15% since the ousting of Hannity and Beck, though cume has increased (more listeners tuning in for a shorter period - perhaps to Dom and Limbaugh, making up for a loss in afternoon drive and flat mornings). The April numbers will increase reflecting Phillies listeners, so this the best snapshot of the new talk lineup numbers until November or December.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I'd have to agree with John1 and Musichead1029. Even though I live in Wilmington, I actually have the choice of 5 news/talkers WPHT, WNTP, WHYY-FM, WDEL, and WILM. Also KYW for news. I can get all of these stations in my car, WNTP is a bit weak, but as a radio person I'll put up with some static if I'm interested in what their discussing.

I'll choose WILM for a quick local news/weather/local traffic update, and then WHYY-FM for the rest, especially Morning Edition, Radio Times, Talk of the Nation, Fresh Air, and All Things Considered. I'll tune in WDEL for their one lib local talker mid mornings, if his topic is of interest, but I spend far more time at WHYY for the reason's John1 and Musichead stated. Unfortunately, the Wilmington market isn't PPM like Philly, and the Arbitron 12+ numbers for Wilmington do not show any non-comms, so I have no idea how well 90.9 FM does here, but I find it of interest that WHYY-FM consistently has higher PPM numbers than 1210 WPHT in Philly.

Not airing commercials might be one reason, but I'm not so sure. I'm not a big fan of Tell Me More at 1pm on WHYY-FM, so even without airing commercials, I still don't listen to that show unless the topic is of interest, which isn't often. My point is, those who prefer Rush/Beck/Hannity or Bennett/Gallagher/Prager aren't going to switch from WPHT or WNTP to WHYY-FM due to no commercials being aired if the programming isn't of interest.

 

[aindik]

Not airing commercials might be one reason, but I'm not so sure. I'm not a big fan of Tell Me More at 1pm on WHYY-FM, so even without airing commercials, I still don't listen to that show unless the topic is of interest, which isn't often. My point is, those who prefer Rush/Beck/Hannity or Bennett/Gallagher/Prager aren't going to switch from WPHT or WNTP to WHYY-FM due to no commercials being aired if the programming isn't of interest.

I'm not saying the same people are listening to both. I'm saying the WPHT listener listens to WPHT for shorter than the WHYY listener listens to WHYY, because WHYY doesn't air commercials. They don't tune over to the other one, but they tune over to music or whatever.

They have the same number of listeners. WHYY listeners just linger longer. That much is undisputed. The question is, why they do it. I think the fact that one station airs programming for 42 minutes an hour and the other one airs programming for 58 minutes an hour has something to do with it.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I can see your point. Sure, the commercial stations air so many spots, psa's, and promos, etc, that yes, it gets in the way of the program. FM music stations are even worse than AM talk stations. No one is going to not station surf with 3-5 minutes of spots/psa's, etc, every few minutes. So yes, WHYY-FM and any non-comm does have that as an advantage, except at begathon times.

 

[mcradiofree]

I'm not sure any of these arguments hold water. Most research indicates that people who listen to "talk" formatted stations typically have the highest TSL. They tend to "block out" commercials, but not change stations. One thing the PPM's show is that people are switching alot to talk formats, but usually they are switching from music to talk, not the other way around. The surge of talk, sports, and news fms popping up, are directly related to the PPMs. Same as older programming had to calculate Arbotron's methodology into their programming. You know, running the TOH at 3 minutes before the hour, so diary keepers would credit them with 2 listening quarters. People who listen only to talk, view commercials as more talk.

 

[musichead1029]

I'm not sure any of these arguments hold water. Most research indicates that people who listen to "talk" formatted stations typically have the highest TSL. They tend to "block out" commercials, but not change stations. One thing the PPM's show is that people are switching alot to talk formats, but usually they are switching from music to talk, not the other way around. The surge of talk, sports, and news fms popping up, are directly related to the PPMs. Same as older programming had to calculate Arbotron's methodology into their programming. You know, running the TOH at 3 minutes before the hour, so diary keepers would credit them with 2 listening quarters. People who listen only to talk, view commercials as more talk.

Good point on commercials not being a tuneout for talk radio listeners. (I disagree with the notion that talk listeners don't differentiate commercials from content however - I think talk listeners are dedicated enough to the content to mentally tune out the commercials without physically tuning out the receiving device.)

I don't know if this invalidates the arguments here. It would be interesting to determine how NPR listeners respond to pledge breaks, which are long interruptions, often without a defined time duration after which the broadcast returns to programming. I would think in that case there would be considerable tuneout, which is why public radio is working to more definitively bind pledge times to a day or a few days, and less times per year.

Also I suspect there is massive tuneout at the beginning and end of sports events on talk stations, since these are interruptions to the programming format. (Within a sports event I would expect most would stay tuned through breaks, perhaps even moreso than during talk programming.)

Commercial talk stations strive to program similar types of shows back to back so as to minimize tuneout. NPR stations have more of a mix of programming types, possibly causing some tuneout. (But the types of programming are still unique to NPR - unavailable elsewhere) Talk as a format has a higher TSL than music formats since the programming is more monolithic and also unique.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Maybe part of why folks are not tuning out during the spot breaks is, those shows air during the day while people are at work, not in their cars. My guess is, the folks in their cars may jump around the dial during spot breaks, as I do. If I'm listening to talk on WDEL and they go to a spot break, I'll jump to WNTP, WPHT, WILM, or WHYY to hear what they're airing. Sometimes I make it back to WDEL, other times I found something of more interest at one of the others and stay there until their next spot break. That is where WHYY-FM has a real advantage as they're breaks are like 30-60 seconds total, so I don't switch when they do those breaks as they're short and not irritating as so many commercials are, for my ear.

When at work, folks are busy and the talk is on in the background, and maybe they can't get to the radio to change it, or there's more than one person listening in a group setting, etc, or they're only partially paying attention as they are busy working and they just ignore the spots, etc. Listening at work is different from listening at home or in your car.

My guess as to why station's like B-101 (WJBR for the Wilmington market) do so well during the work day is they are the "safe" stations for an office or work place to choose. Nothing too wild, too loud, or offending like a Rap, a heavy metal, or even a Country station might be. Kind of modern day "Muzak", except this muzak does appeal to the younger female demo the advertisers crave.

Talk radio really is more geared for individuals who have their own office with a door that closes, so you're not offending the others who won't want to hear the rantings of Rush/Beck/Hannity, or even the verbiage of a local talker on WNTP, WPHT or WDEL, be they lib or conservative as religion and politics are two real no no's in the workplace. That might also be an advantage for WHYY-FM (NPR) as their talk is calm and not loud or offensive, etc, which also makes it a safe choice for the workplace.

I've noticed on WDEL that the only callers they generally get on their live and local shows are either retired or unemployed folks as most people at work, don't have the time to hang on the phone for 15 + minutes to offer a 30 second comment (way longer if calling a national show like Rush).