WIBG location

[barefoot]

To all us oldtimers out there that grew up with WIBG in the 50's and 60's, I was wondering why the studios and transmitter were located at 117 Ridge Pike in Lafayette Hill, this was 30 miles from Center City and points south, why so distant from the COL, Growing up in South Philadelphia back in the day, they were always a hard catch, especially at night. Why were they positioned way up in that neck of the woods being a Philadelphia station. I would receive WABC in NYC better on some days, boasting 50kw-d 10kw-n beamed toward the city, I still think if they were transmitting from a closer point they would of had a much better signal. Did any other old goats have a problem with receiving WIBG like I did. I think WFIL and KYW were also up in that area, Whitemarsh township, but they weren't WIBBAGE in fact nothing ever came close to WIBBAGE. Did they ever have their transmitter closer to Philly and if so, why the move.

 

[davideduardo]

To all us oldtimers out there that grew up with WIBG in the 50's and 60's, I was wondering why the studios and transmitter were located at 117 Ridge Pike in Lafayette Hill, this was 30 miles from Center City and points south, why so distant from the COL, Growing up in South Philadelphia back in the day, they were always a hard catch, especially at night. Why were they positioned way up in that neck of the woods being a Philadelphia station. I would receive WABC in NYC better on some days, boasting 50kw-d 10kw-n beamed toward the city, I still think if they were transmitting from a closer point they would of had a much better signal. Did any other old goats have a problem with receiving WIBG like I did. I think WFIL and KYW were also up in that area, Whitemarsh township, but they weren't WIBBAGE in fact nothing ever came close to WIBBAGE. Did they ever have their transmitter closer to Philly and if so, why the move.

WIBG (WNTP) has always been highly directional, with its major power "beam" concentrated to the southeast of the transmitter site. So, to effectively cover the market as well as it could, they located the transmitter to the northwest and shot the signal over the city of license, out over Jersey and to the ocean. This is why places like Toms River and Atlantic City had a better night signal than Pottstown.

The signal was reduced to the southwest to protect WRC in DC and to the northeast to protect WINS, I believe. At night, they protected the priority stations in Canada and Mexico.

https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WNTP&service=AM&h=N shows you the night signal. The "listenable" signal is well inside the red pattern.

The day signal was a bit better, as you can see from https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WNTP&service=AM&h=D but still most of the signal went southeast from the location of the transmitter.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

990 has operated from the current site since at least 1959.

The directional pattern has been loosened at least once. Wikipedia says the DA was reduced from 5 towers to 4 in 1986; the FCC does show a construction permit was issued in 1985 and amended in 1986, so this seems accurate.
And I have reviewed the CP when the DA was again loosened in 2007, to improve coverage in Montgomery county.

 

[fybush]

Looking through the FCC history cards, it looks like the DA in Whitemarsh was built in 1952 (after existing as an unbuilt CP since 1942 (and maybe even back to 1939?) - obviously wartime construction restrictions kept it from being built for the first few years, but I don't know what held it up after that). 1958 was the power increase from 10 kW to 50 kW daytime.

The previous site was generally referred to as "Glenside" but was actually a little west of there in Cheltenham Twp, on Cheltenham Ave. east of Easton Road, within site of the Wyndmoor tower site of WPTZ-TV 3/WPHL 17 and now the 106.1/97.5 FM site. WIBG was a tiny little signal out there before the NARBA shift in 1941, with just 100 watts on 970, a frequency that was owned at night by WCFL in Chicago. WIBG would have moved to 1000 in NARBA, but that's where WINS went, so WIBG was sent to 990 but at least got 1000 watts out of the deal.

Oh - and why Whitemarsh Township? It's not 30 miles from Center City, probably closer to 10 as the crow flies. Draw a line from Center City to the primary station WIBG had to protect, CBW in Winnipeg, and that line goes right through Whitemarsh. A directional antenna there can put a good null toward Winnipeg and a huge front lobe toward Philadelphia and the close-in suburbs. Anything north or south of there would put the null and the forward lobe in the wrong directions, and of course you couldn't possibly have put it in New Jersey.

 

[davideduardo]

Looking through the FCC history cards, it looks like the DA in Whitemarsh was built in 1952 (after existing as an unbuilt CP since 1942 (and maybe even back to 1939?) - obviously wartime construction restrictions kept it from being built for the first few years, but I don't know what held it up after that). 1958 was the power increase from 10 kW to 50 kW daytime.

The previous site was generally referred to as "Glenside" but was actually a little west of there in Cheltenham Twp, on Cheltenham Ave. east of Easton Road, within site of the Wyndmoor tower site of WPTZ-TV 3/WPHL 17 and now the 106.1/97.5 FM site. WIBG was a tiny little signal out there before the NARBA shift in 1941, with just 100 watts on 970, a frequency that was owned at night by WCFL in Chicago. WIBG would have moved to 1000 in NARBA, but that's where WINS went, so WIBG was sent to 990 but at least got 1000 watts out of the deal.

Oh - and why Whitemarsh Township? It's not 30 miles from Center City, probably closer to 10 as the crow flies. Draw a line from Center City to the primary station WIBG had to protect, CBW in Winnipeg, and that line goes right through Whitemarsh. A directional antenna there can put a good null toward Winnipeg and a huge front lobe toward Philadelphia and the close-in suburbs. Anything north or south of there would put the null and the forward lobe in the wrong directions, and of course you couldn't possibly have put it in New Jersey.

I think I know where to look this up, but did the change to Storer ownership speed up the upgrade to 50 kw... either as incentive to "build and sell" or to build it out once it was purchased?

I do recall that the sale of WIBG to Storer was requested in light of the owner's losses with a TV station in Wilmington and that was around 1957. Likely the prior owner did not have the money to do the 50 kw upgrade.

 

[fybush]

I think I know where to look this up, but did the change to Storer ownership speed up the upgrade to 50 kw... either as incentive to "build and sell" or to build it out once it was purchased?

I do recall that the sale of WIBG to Storer was requested in light of the owner's losses with a TV station in Wilmington and that was around 1957. Likely the prior owner did not have the money to do the 50 kw upgrade.

Storer bought WIBG and the TV station, WPFH-TV 12, as a package from Paul Harron in May 1957. The 50 kW upgrade wasn't applied for until July 1958, by Storer, and didn't get licensed until October 1959. By then, channel 12 was just a distant memory, having been shut down by Storer for lack of a buyer (!) in late 1958.

As big an outfit as Storer was, I can't imagine it took the shutdown of channel 12 to free up the money for the AM upgrade.

 

[davideduardo]

Storer bought WIBG and the TV station, WPFH-TV 12, as a package from Paul Harron in May 1957. The 50 kW upgrade wasn't applied for until July 1958, by Storer, and didn't get licensed until October 1959. By then, channel 12 was just a distant memory, having been shut down by Storer for lack of a buyer (!) in late 1958.

As big an outfit as Storer was, I can't imagine it took the shutdown of channel 12 to free up the money for the AM upgrade.

Yes, that is the story I was remembering. I recall hearing that the Herron ownership knew they could upgrade, but the TV was sucking up their money so they never filed. That sounds credible.

I bought my first share (singular) of Storer stock in 1957, and became very interested in the company. Our new dog was named "Wibbage" (the other choice was "Speedy" as "WJW" and "WWVA" were not pronounceable) and I tried to visit or DX all of the Storer stations. Never visited WIBG, but did get to see KGBS in the old funeral home with the ground floor that sloped to the rear for "fluid" drainage.

 

[fybush]

Great story!

So here's the thing I've never understood about WVUE-TV: I know Storer had to unload it quickly because buying WITI in Milwaukee would otherwise have taken them over the 5 VHF limit. And I can easily believe that in 1958, a big network affiliate in Milwaukee was more profitable than an indie in Philadelphia.

But to hand in the license without finding any buyer? There was already a path within view to move the channel 12 transmitter to Roxborough - Storer bought land for a tower that was eventually sold to the Gross interests many years later for what became the channel 57 facility. It was right at this exact time that the remains of DuMont, WABD in New York and WTTG in Washington, were making their way to John Kluge to become what would be the foundation stones of Metromedia and eventually Fox. Wouldn't channel 12 have been a natural fit between those two, creating a 1-2-3 punch up the Northeast Corridor?

How different would Philly TV history have been with a Metromedia indie on channel 12, that would eventually have become Fox 12? WHYY would have stayed on channel 35, and channels 17, 29 and 48 would have had a much tougher time against a VHF indie in town.

 

[fybush]

Ah - David's archives to the rescue! There were offers, but none of them were big enough to exceed the tax benefits Storer reaped by writing down $1.5 to $2 million as a capital loss by just shutting down channel 12 and returning the license.

I hope your stock benefited from that decision, David!!

 

[davideduardo]

Ah - David's archives to the rescue! There were offers, but none of them were big enough to exceed the tax benefits Storer reaped by writing down $1.5 to $2 million as a capital loss by just shutting down channel 12 and returning the license.

I hope your stock benefited from that decision, David!!

It did!

I kept buying it with my $1.15 an hour from Richard Eaton, along with Toronto exchange gems like Ajax Petroleum. I used the proceeds, in 1964, to build HCRM1 and put it on the air.

 

[barefoot]

Why couldn't they have set up in Jersey, I recall back in the day, their competition on a softer music format was WIP, which had their transmitter over the bridge in Bellmawr and had a monster signal in the city proper.

 

[frankberry]

Their transmitter location is all about putting their signal over their city of license. For that to happen, the transmitter needs to be northwest of the city.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Why couldn't they have set up in Jersey

Because a transmitter site in Jersey set up to cover Philly would have violated the protection rules for 990 CBW Winnipeg, 1000 WCFL/WMVP Chicago and possibly 1010 WINS New York.

WIP/WTEL had an easier job with designing the DA, in part because 600, 610 and 620 are regional frequencies. 990 is a clear channel in Canada.

 

[davideduardo]

Why couldn't they have set up in Jersey, I recall back in the day, their competition on a softer music format was WIP, which had their transmitter over the bridge in Bellmawr and had a monster signal in the city proper.

Each situation is different. 610 has different protection requirements than 990. In a large percentage of cases, stations have to mutually protect other stations on the same channel or ones on the adjacent ones from interference. 610 has much less stringent protection requirements both because it is on what is called a regional channel and because it was one of the earlier stations licensed in the US. 990 did not become a higher powered station until after WW II, and because it was on a clear channel belonging to Canada and Mexico, it could not send power to the whole arc from Northeast to North to Northwest to West to Southwest. Further it had to protect 980 WRC in DC, the adjacent channel.

So, the only way it could run with higher power was to send most of it to the Southeast... meaning it had to be located to the general Northwest of downtown.

 

[davideduardo]

Because a transmitter site in Jersey set up to cover Philly would have violated the protection rules for 990 CBW Winnipeg, 1000 WCFL/WMVP Chicago and possibly 1010 WINS New York.

WIP/WTEL had an easier job with designing the DA, in part because 600, 610 and 620 are regional frequencies. 990 is a clear channel in Canada.

And it is a shared clear channel with Mexico, with XET in Monterrey requiring protection, too.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Interesting. XET is missing from Wikipedia's list of class A stations.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

@ Barefoot: A look at this map (of 1480 kHz) might illuminate why all of t hose stations had to direct their nighttime signals southeast. The transmitter hills were inland ; the cities-of-license tended to be on the shores.

http://www.nf8m.com/pattern_maps/US-CA_nighttime/N-map_1480KHz.html

(I hope the map colours 'take'. Nowadays here, the colours aren't as vivid as they had been)

Now, WIBG's 990 was not a regional frequency. But as far as Mexico and Canada were concerned, WIBG may just as well have been a regional frequency. Avoid the big boys at night. Do the best you can.

But WIBG did that in the *day*, too. A DX/DJ pal of mine was listening on the Outer Banks of NC in the early 70's, and noted (re WIBG) 'So THAT'S where it all goes!'
Both he and I were from that stretch of Southeastern Queens near JFK Airport. We always wondered why WIBG was so weak, yet WFIL was gangbusters.