Will any more radio markets migrate talk to FM?

[pellmell]

All of the local talk stations are so cluttered that they're hardly listenable. It's time for FM talk to debut with, "More talk with less talk" like they did with "More music with less talk."

Wait a minute. Make that, "More talk with less clutter." LOL

 

[Holland Cooke]

Cue tympani roll...

And now comes...WGY-FM/Albany.

Next???

 

[travisl5678]

What Kevin said.

Low-end talk stations with third-tier or lower syndie products and no local angle are doomed to failure, AM or FM.

Certainly True, earlier this year a Smooth Jazz station in Fresno,California flipped to a full TRN line-up and went from a 1.4 to a 0.0

 

[Holland Cooke]

MORE on the coming FM Talk Tsunami:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2XEe_0KH4o

 

[radioguy39nj]

MORE on the coming FM Talk Tsunami:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2XEe_0KH4o

This could get interesting! How many FM talk stations could a market end up with if major operators don't want to or can't afford to pay the royalty fees that could result from the proposed legislation?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

This could get interesting! How many FM talk stations could a market end up with if major operators don't want to or can't afford to pay the royalty fees that could result from the proposed legislation?

Maybe the better question would be: "How many viable and worthwhile FM talk stations could a market end up with.....?"

Major operators are what they are because they know how to operate major operations. I think most of us would agree that by the time even a largest of the large markets got its 19th FM Talk Station, we are no longer welcoming new teams to the MAJOR leagues.

I see a lot of messages where the writer assumes anybody who is the THIRD talk player in the market (AM or FM) is left to choose from slim pickins'. (That conversation seems to work off the concept that syndicated national talk shows are the only acceptable content for News-Talk stations.)

So. What's left over for station four and five in the talk league? And station number nine and number ten? "The Womens League of Voters, all day, all the time." Maybe a station known as "The Sultan of Sod" with experts on growing Fescue and BlueGrass 24/7.

Maybe the question is: Are we smart enough to create affordable locally-generated talk that anyone would want to listen to.

Of course.... some of us nay-sayers would then chime in: We haven't established that we are smart enough to create nationally syndicated talk that doesn't burn listeners out in a matter of months.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

I see a lot of messages where the writer assumes anybody who is the THIRD talk player in the market (AM or FM) is left to choose from slim pickins'. (That conversation seems to work off the concept that syndicated national talk shows are the only acceptable content for News-Talk stations.)

Since I've basically said that in this thread, a clarification...I don't believe that "syndicated national talk shows are the only acceptable content".

I'm just pointing to the reality that a third or fourth talk station in a market is likely to be making these pickings, and not likely to have local programming in any significant amount.

It is market reality, not my opinion.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

WGY-FM is an interesting case.

It is a Clear Channel FM simulcast of an existing "big signal" talker that needs no coverage help...a 50kW flamethrower that can be heard HERE at night.

We have the same here in WTAM/1100 in Cleveland, but there's no Class A struggling music FM for CC to simulcast WTAM on. (Though there are some at the betting window calling for a flip of classic hits WMJI/105.7 "Majic 105.7" when morning icon John Lanigan finally makes good on his intentions to retire.)

All of CC's FM signals in Cleveland are full-market, pretty much, and all have their purpose in the cluster right now.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I'm just pointing to the reality that a third or fourth talk station in a market is likely to be making these pickings, and not likely to have local programming in any significant amount.

It is market reality, not my opinion.

There are indeed some "market realities" that stir up the market. If you are the "big operator" with the best frequency, maybe an established sales crew and reputation, and the capital to step up and say: "We're going to do News-Talk, and we're going to be Number One!" then you may be the only operation in town who could (if you chose to) fund a local programming scheme. But it doesn't make sense in today's climate to leave the highest rated nationally syndicated programs open for your challenger to pick up.

The point I really wanted to make is not in conflict with what you are saying. By the time you get down to the 3rd, 4th or 5th talk station in town, the competitive national good stuff is already in play so you then ask yourself: To be different, to carve out a niche audience, what can I produce locally that my sales staff can walk out and proudly sell. But if you are going to have to settle for 4th or 5th spot.... can you afford to create local programming you can be proud of?

So the discussion I am pushing is this: if because of new music royalties and other programming challenges every FM station in town decides they need to do Talk radio, at what point do you have to realize you are wanting to take your station into a restaurant where all the tables are taken?

I am not predicting the following change but consider this scenario: The market reality today seems to revolve around the idea that ONLY conservative talk radio is viable. (I understand that view can be challenged.) Where have station owners and the broadcast industry put themselves if finally grows tired of a diet of conservative talk. What other restaurant are you going to run to and seek a table?

Good management must have some idea of a "Plan B" in any industry. And sometimes Plan B turns out to be a prince in disguise, ready to walk on stage and become a king.

 

[Holland Cooke]

It's not about the AM station's geographical footprint.

WGY-FM is an interesting case. It is a Clear Channel FM simulcast of an existing "big signal" talker that needs no coverage help...a 50kW flamethrower that can be heard HERE at night.

It's not about where the AM's pattern does/doesn't go.
It's about who does/doesn't use AM.

See quote from WSB/Atlanta GM on page 1: http://getonthenet.com/10sepseptember.pdf

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[radioguy39nj]

Another NY radio board has insisted talk on FM isn't needed or wouldn't work in NY because it has 50 kW stations that get out far from NYC. That logic is fine for 1990. This is 2010! I'm sure many younger listeners in NY have never visited AM.

I recall once meeting a young person (under 25) one day and starting a conversation about sports. I mentioned to him about WFAN. I was stunned when he replied "What's F-A-N?" That's a demo WFAN isn't reaching despite its 50 kW (660 AM) blaster signal. WFAN's ratings and billings have never been better, but they would benefit by simulcasting on FM.

New York's other sports station, WEPN (1050 ESPN), needs to move to FM due to its strongly directional signal. A move to FM would have them blanketing the entire metro NY area and would allow them to more effectively compete with WFAN.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

I am not predicting the following change but consider this scenario: The market reality today seems to revolve around the idea that ONLY conservative talk radio is viable. (I understand that view can be challenged.) Where have station owners and the broadcast industry put themselves if finally grows tired of a diet of conservative talk. What other restaurant are you going to run to and seek a table?

I think you can expand this to "political talk", which generally leans conservative. There's been no proof that liberal political talk "works" beyond some very good situations/markets/etc., and there have been horribly run/managed liberal talkers just as there have been horribly run/managed conservative talkers.

So, what is there to do talk radio wise that isn't cookie cutter political talk? "Guy talk" had its day, pretty much, and is basically replaced by sports talk-aimed-at-guys now. What's out there that hasn't been covered? Female-oriented talk has had little success, even though it flourishes on TV.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

It's not about where the AM's pattern does/doesn't go.
It's about who does/doesn't use AM.

Oh, I'm with you on that part. I was just pointing out that it's the first time, I know of, that Clear Channel has mounted an FM simulcast of one of its existing 50kW flamethrowers.

And remember, we have an FM-based traditional talker in our backyard here, that's been doing the format successfully since *1981*, and in part back to 1974, when the midday host (who is still there today) started.

 

[DonTheTrucker]

So, what is there to do talk radio wise that isn't cookie cutter political talk? "Guy talk" had its day, pretty much, and is basically replaced by sports talk-aimed-at-guys now. What's out there that hasn't been covered? Female-oriented talk has had little success, even though it flourishes on TV.

Service oriented talk. Dr. Dean Edell, Clark Howard, Dave Ramsey, Dr. Joy, Motor Trend Radio. Talk Bruce Williams into coming out of retitrement! Air those types of syndicated shows in spots you can't fill with qualified local talent. I'm sure some jobless jock in your town knows about gardenry. There's your Saturday/Sunday morning show. Another jobless jock might work on cars or computers. There's a local version of Car Talk or Leo Laporte!

Think outside the box. People love political talk. I myself love it. But its not for everyone, and there is a huge untapped market.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Think outside the box. People love political talk. I myself love it. But its not for everyone, and there is a huge untapped market.

"Advice talk" has had limited success. Your best examples would be Clark Howard and Dave Ramsey, and of course, Dr. Laura was big at one point. The list falls off after that.

For example, I happen to like Dr. Dean Edell, but he owes the last 25 years of his career to being paired with Rush Limbaugh - first with EFM Media, later, with Premiere/CC. When EFM started, there was at least a rumor that Dr. Dean was a requirement for stations wanting to take Rush.

Dr. Joy Browne has some OK second-and-third tier stations - her biggest in this part of the world is CKLW/800 - but is generally even less relevant than Dr. Laura.

And CC has flipped some of its second-tier talkers to "advice" talk formats (for a while, mostly from liberal talk) with very little success.

I'd like to see non-political talk work, but this might not be the "magic bullet". It may be one component of the future.

I think a station would have more success talking about personal issues, but not political issues per se.

 

[travisl5678]

Congrats to a new small market news/talk FM coming to FM, KQMS 1400 in Redding,CA is now on FM at 99.3

 

[MedianJ]

FM talk does work if done corectly, a man who is instrumental in FM talk is Walter Sabo. If you do a search on him there's a wealth of knowledge about it.

 

[Holland Cooke]

RE: "FM talk does work if done corectly"

I suspect you mean "correctly."

And to make your knowledge on the topic even wealthier, send an Email, even a blank one, to [email protected]. Mere MOMENTS later, the E-robot will deliver some light reading that's pertinent.

Or simply Google "talk radio consultant."

TALKING ABOUT radio is a hobby horse if you're not IN the business,
MediarI

 

[smedge2006]

FM talk does work if done corectly, a man who is instrumental in FM talk is Walter Sabo. If you do a search on him there's a wealth of knowledge about it.

Sabo's approach is in many ways the opposite of just sticking the AM talker on FM, if you look at the stations he consulted over the years. He advocates "baking from scratch" and finding talent that fits the demos, rather than plugging in syndicated talk like a puzzle. Unfortunately, station owners don't seem to want or afford anything other than plug-n-play.

 

[Holland Cooke]

RE "sticking the AM talker on FM"

Predictably, instant simulcasts will be the quickest FM Talk growth.
Legacy AMs play defense against start-up FM talkers that take longer from-scratch.
(BELIEVE ME. I'm "scratching" two FMs now. Hiring a whole local air staff takes time.)

Simulcasting gets WBAP, WSB, and, this week, WGY, there first.
And these stations' programming assets deserve exposure to the-other-80%-of-the-world.

To-date, our sense of Talk Radio success has been calibrated to AM reach.
Rush gets a 5 Share, and we call him a star.
Why SHOULDN'T he get a 15?

Some legacy AM owners resist, fearing they'll devalue the AM by adding an FM.
They'll come-around.
Because THE COMPETITION doesn't fear devaluing their legacy AM.

When I programmed WTOP in the 80s, it was a stand-alone @ 1500AM.
And I admit it. It was a kick to crank a 50KW. 20 states at night north/south.
We were #1 cume...but mid-pack AQH Share.
When they moved 'er to FM, median age instantly went down 10 years, and now they're solid #1.

Look for AT LEAST one simulcast a week from now on.

HC
www.HollandCooke.com