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Will HD Radio eliminate even FM DXing?

R

Radiogeek500

Well, I would have asked this on our DX board, but it seems that board no longer exists.

For those of you that have been able to hear HD Radio, have you notice if it has curtailed or eliminated a ability to DX even far away FM signals(those that would be a 100 miles or more away?

I ask this question as I live in Southern California(Orange County) and we at times especially during the summer months can DX stations from San Diego and Santa Barbara among others in the current analog world. But I had heard(I don't know if it is totally true or not)that Skywave is eliminated on AM thus cancelling out any nightime DXs, but then again I have heard that most AM stations aren't running IBOC at night, well yet anyways.

Sure would suck to lose DX abilities. I know a San Diego station don't care about Los Angeles, but still, from my vantage point I do like to hear far away stations.<P ID="signature">______________
The old skool show@noon with Jeff G and DJ Rawn
Only on Power 106(KPWR Los Angeles)

JOSH, Moderating the whole Radio-Info radio state of California and Indiana too!</P>
 
> Well, I would have asked this on our DX board, but it seems
> that board no longer exists.
>
> For those of you that have been able to hear HD Radio, have
> you notice if it has curtailed or eliminated a ability to DX
> even far away FM signals(those that would be a 100 miles or
> more away?
>
> I ask this question as I live in Southern California(Orange
> County) and we at times especially during the summer months
> can DX stations from San Diego and Santa Barbara among
> others in the current analog world. But I had heard(I don't
> know if it is totally true or not)that Skywave is eliminated
> on AM thus cancelling out any nightime DXs, but then again I
> have heard that most AM stations aren't running IBOC at
> night, well yet anyways.
>
> Sure would suck to lose DX abilities. I know a San Diego
> station don't care about Los Angeles, but still, from my
> vantage point I do like to hear far away stations.
>


The DX baord does exist a little further down.

HD may change how we dx, but wont eliminate it. I actually have been DXing HD Radio stations now.
 
> Well, I would have asked this on our DX board, but it seems
> that board no longer exists.

http://www.radio-info.com/mods/posts?Board=dx<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> For those of you that have been able to hear HD Radio, have
> you notice if it has curtailed or eliminated a ability to DX
> even far away FM signals(those that would be a 100 miles or
> more away?

HD Radio does a fine job of eliminating the weaker or even moderately strong adjacent-channel stations, on both AM and FM. On FM, basically what it does is increase the capture ratio of your receiver. Weaker signals that were previously audible will now just be lost in the noise and hiss of the digital sidebands that your local stations are transmitting. So you'll still be able to DX, but the distant signals will need to be significantly stronger before they will be audible above the background noise. AM is much worse because there's no capture effect; if you have two equally strong adjacent-channel signals and both are transmitting HD Radio, then they'll obliterate each other with noise.
<P ID="signature">______________
noiboc.jpg
</P>
 
> Well, I would have asked this on our DX board, but it seems
> that board no longer exists.
>
> For those of you that have been able to hear HD Radio, have
> you notice if it has curtailed or eliminated a ability to DX
> even far away FM signals(those that would be a 100 miles or
> more away?
>
> I ask this question as I live in Southern California(Orange
> County) and we at times especially during the summer months
> can DX stations from San Diego and Santa Barbara among
> others in the current analog world. But I had heard(I don't
> know if it is totally true or not)that Skywave is eliminated
> on AM thus cancelling out any nightime DXs, but then again I
> have heard that most AM stations aren't running IBOC at
> night, well yet anyways.
>
> Sure would suck to lose DX abilities. I know a San Diego
> station don't care about Los Angeles, but still, from my
> vantage point I do like to hear far away stations.
>
I have no problem DXing with HD radio on FM.

WVAZ and WNUA and WQBW and WKKV are here with HD and I can pick up stuff around them. I live right in WKKV's grade A area and have been able to grab stations on 100.9 and 100.5

I also regularly DX stations transmitting HD radio.

AM is a different story. AM HD radio is the root of all HD radio evil.

sounds like static or water pooring down a waterfall on adjacent frequencies.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
It is a royal pain in the "arse" (HD Radio). Whether HD Radio really takes-off, is another matter. But, be as it may, HD Radio will not totally end DX'ing. It will be another challenge (or hurtle) to get through that noise. When (and when IF) the time comes for analog to be "sunset", the digital signals are still digitized RF and still will be bound by propagation characteristics just like analog. As long as there is radio (or TV for that matter), there will always be DX. Hopefully, the next generation of receivers can be a little more selective and sensitive than their current generation of receivers. We shall see what we shall see..... People are already DX'ing HDTV will rather surprising results. I'll be honest, an HD radio is NOT on my short list of things to buy. It's still a technolgy that is still in its' infancy. Show me why I should get one........

73,

Peter Q. <P ID="signature">______________
Peter Q. George (K1XRB)
Whitman, Massachusetts</P>
 
We've got one FM in HD around here (Suposedly) and I can't tell any diffeence around it. If you can get away from the big city signals, FM should be OK. AM IBOC may well eliminate sunrise and sunset skip DXing once the whole dial gets covered with HD.<P ID="signature">______________
Did the Corinthians ever write back?</P>
 
> We've got one FM in HD around here (Suposedly) and I can't
> tell any diffeence around it. If you can get away from the
> big city signals, FM should be OK. AM IBOC may well
> eliminate sunrise and sunset skip DXing once the whole dial
> gets covered with HD.
>

1st adjacents of an HD Radio FM station are significantly more difficult to DX, but it's still possible. In fact, I'm DXing a station 100 miles north of me right now on a first-adjacent frequency to a strong Chicago station, which is only 30 miles north.

AM will be a completely different story. When a sizeable number of AMs implement HD Radio, especially those above 1200 in the "graveyard," only your strong locals will come through. And, stations for which you historically lived in their "nulls" may begin covering their adjacent frequencies, because the directional patterns can be significantly different at ±10 and ±20 kHz from center.

It will not necessarily be the end of DX, but it will certainly change the scene.
 
> We've got one FM in HD around here (Suposedly) and I can't
> tell any diffeence around it. If you can get away from the
> big city signals, FM should be OK. AM IBOC may well
> eliminate sunrise and sunset skip DXing once the whole dial
> gets covered with HD.
>
Only difference I notice with FM HD is processing. The regular band's audio processing gets yucky.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
NOPE -FM COVERAGE DECREASES!!!!

I documented this on the Houston board a couple of weeks back. For years, I have been regularly going back and forth to Houston. KLDE 107.5 would always be one of the first Houston stations I could get, around Centerville. After they went IBOC - they have trouble making it into Huntsville. While I doubt either city is in their ratings - I was using a Pioneer Supertuner. Ordingary radios are probably dropping in the Woodlands and Conroe, or even the Northern suburbs of Houston. All very affluant areas, which should be highly prized by any Houston station. If I were KLDE, I would immediately drop HD to get my coverage back!!! One estimate is that coverage is down just a few percent, somebody else wrote that it can be down an astonishing 60%!!!

Station managers - BEWARE OF IBOC COVERAGE LOSSES!!! Can you afford to lose affluent suburbs for this pipe dream that only enriches Ibiquity / Clear Channels pocketbooks?! Do you want your wealthiest listeners giving up on your degraded signal to go to competitors, satellite, or iPods?
 
Re: NOPE -FM COVERAGE DECREASES!!!!

> I documented this on the Houston board a couple of weeks
> back. For years, I have been regularly going back and forth
> to Houston. KLDE 107.5 would always be one of the first
> Houston stations I could get, around Centerville. After
> they went IBOC - they have trouble making it into
> Huntsville. While I doubt either city is in their ratings -
> I was using a Pioneer Supertuner. Ordingary radios are
> probably dropping in the Woodlands and Conroe, or even the
> Northern suburbs of Houston. All very affluant areas, which
> should be highly prized by any Houston station. If I were
> KLDE, I would immediately drop HD to get my coverage back!!!
> One estimate is that coverage is down just a few percent,
> somebody else wrote that it can be down an astonishing
> 60%!!!
>
> Station managers - BEWARE OF IBOC COVERAGE LOSSES!!! Can
> you afford to lose affluent suburbs for this pipe dream that
> only enriches Ibiquity / Clear Channels pocketbooks?! Do
> you want your wealthiest listeners giving up on your
> degraded signal to go to competitors, satellite, or iPods?
>
I didn't notice any coverage loss with WJJZ 106.1's IBOC before and after they got IBOC. Maybe the coverage loss is due to an adjacent station's IBOC hash.

If you DX an IBOC station with an HD radio, the ID will be displayed, so you won't have to wait for it. You can just move on to the next station, so DXing will be easier.

<P ID="signature">______________
17-year-old radio geek
Location: Princeton Junction, NJ
AIM: KewlDude471</P>
 
> > Well, I would have asked this on our DX board, but it
> seems
> > that board no longer exists.
> >
> > For those of you that have been able to hear HD Radio,
> have
> > you notice if it has curtailed or eliminated a ability to
> DX
> > even far away FM signals(those that would be a 100 miles
> or
> > more away?
> >
> > I ask this question as I live in Southern
> California(Orange
> > County) and we at times especially during the summer
> months
> > can DX stations from San Diego and Santa Barbara among
> > others in the current analog world. But I had heard(I
> don't
> > know if it is totally true or not)that Skywave is
> eliminated
> > on AM thus cancelling out any nightime DXs, but then again
> I
> > have heard that most AM stations aren't running IBOC at
> > night, well yet anyways.
> >
> > Sure would suck to lose DX abilities. I know a San Diego
> > station don't care about Los Angeles, but still, from my
> > vantage point I do like to hear far away stations.
> >
> I have no problem DXing with HD radio on FM.
>
> WVAZ and WNUA and WQBW and WKKV are here with HD and I can
> pick up stuff around them. I live right in WKKV's grade A
> area and have been able to grab stations on 100.9 and 100.5
>
> I also regularly DX stations transmitting HD radio.
>
> AM is a different story. AM HD radio is the root of all HD
> radio evil.
>
> sounds like static or water pooring down a waterfall on
> adjacent frequencies.
>


I am glad that WKKV is not giving you troubles on analog. We had an instance where the WKKV analog transmitter went out, but the digital kept on going. I could DX the WKKV frequency, then I changed the receiver over to digital and there was the station. It was kind of weird.

One thing I dont think people understand. IBOC FM transmitters run very low power. One of our class B FMs, the IBOC is only running 330 watts output, whereas the analog EPR is 15.5kW.

AM is a different beast.

Also for your area WUSN, WJMK and sometimes WTMX are running IBOC as well. WKTI is running, but has been off for a few days.
 
Can you say axe to grind???

> I documented this on the Houston board a couple of weeks
> back. For years, I have been regularly going back and forth
> to Houston. KLDE 107.5 would always be one of the first
> Houston stations I could get, around Centerville. After
> they went IBOC - they have trouble making it into
> Huntsville. While I doubt either city is in their ratings -
> I was using a Pioneer Supertuner. Ordingary radios are
> probably dropping in the Woodlands and Conroe, or even the
> Northern suburbs of Houston. All very affluant areas, which
> should be highly prized by any Houston station. If I were
> KLDE, I would immediately drop HD to get my coverage back!!!
> One estimate is that coverage is down just a few percent,
> somebody else wrote that it can be down an astonishing
> 60%!!!
>
> Station managers - BEWARE OF IBOC COVERAGE LOSSES!!! Can
> you afford to lose affluent suburbs for this pipe dream that
> only enriches Ibiquity / Clear Channels pocketbooks?! Do
> you want your wealthiest listeners giving up on your
> degraded signal to go to competitors, satellite, or iPods?
>

STATION MANAGERS! BEWARE OF THE ABOVE POST!
If you are now done with you little rant....... You look like a fool in your post IMHO. You have no idea how IBOC get transmitted. If you did, you would see that there is no way that IBOC could limit the range of an analog signal. Also, there are two seperate audio chains with different processors (in most instances). So unless the stations changed the processing for the analog, there is no way that an IBOC signal could change the "sound" nor the the distance of the analog signal.

I have tested our analog and IBOC signals on our two IBOC stations. No drop what so ever of the analog signal. Like wise with 8 other IBOC stations in another market.

So as Bill Engvall says: "Here's your sign".
 
> see..... People are already DX'ing HDTV will rather
> surprising results. I'll be honest, an HD radio is NOT on
> my short list of things to buy. It's still a technolgy that
> is still in its' infancy. Show me why I should get
> one........

Actually it *is* on my short list - due to curiousity. Same reason I bought the WinTV-D card a few years back; just curious to see how it behaves.

However, I'm not quite curious to buy at the current price point - especially as I have no intention of changing my car radio & there don't seem to be any home models out yet.
 
> > see..... People are already DX'ing HDTV will rather
> > surprising results. I'll be honest, an HD radio is NOT on
>
> > my short list of things to buy. It's still a technolgy
> that
> > is still in its' infancy. Show me why I should get
> > one........
>
> Actually it *is* on my short list - due to curiousity. Same
> reason I bought the WinTV-D card a few years back; just
> curious to see how it behaves.
>
> However, I'm not quite curious to buy at the current price
> point - especially as I have no intention of changing my car
> radio & there don't seem to be any home models out yet.
>


Try this....
www.radiosophy.com
 
Re: Can you say axe to grind???

Your argument is with "Mike-O" on the Houston board, which he posted on 9-4-05:

"I drive to Dallas at least six to eight times a year and KLDE has been a regular to Centerville for years. I did some digging in the web last night and came across many articles that stated the analog signal lost 11% of the power when IBOC is installed, even Ibiquity acknowledges this. Now 11% percent wouldn't make that drastic difference, but there was one article by an engineer that stated the power loss can actually be up to 60% of the analog signal, depending on the installation. Does anyone have any reports on KKRW, they are using IBOC aren't they? There are too many articles to list, go to the search engine www.dogpile.com and enter in "Loss of Analog Coverage to FM stations with IBOC Digital radio" and you will get a ton of returns."

So before calling a fellow professional a fool, perhaps it would be wise to check on Mike-O's claims, as verified by me, in this particular situation.

Incidentally - my axe-to-grind has always been with AM IBOC, not FM. Please get your facts right next time.
 
Re: Can you say axe to grind???

Myself, I'm not particularly fond of either flavor of IBOC (though AM is certainly much worse than FM) but...

> Your argument is with "Mike-O" on the Houston board, which
> he posted on 9-4-05:
>
> ...
> digging in the web last night and came across many articles
> that stated the analog signal lost 11% of the power when
> IBOC is installed, even Ibiquity acknowledges this. Now 11%
> ...
> go to the search engine www.dogpile.com and enter in "Loss
> of Analog Coverage to FM stations with IBOC Digital radio"
> and you will get a ton of returns."

When I do that search I get one (edit: one *relevant* hit; there are others that don't seem to have anything to do with changes in coverage) hit, an Ibiquity document titled "Conversion Requirements for AM & FM IBOC Transmission". This document does state that IBOC results in a loss of about 10% of analog power.

However... it's talking about losses in a combiner. These losses are easily compensated by increasing the output power of the analog transmitter. Unless the analog plant has been underengineered, there is no reason for this loss to actually reduce the coverage of the station.

That 60% loss figure is pretty difficult to figure out. I'd love to see a link to that article - dogpile isn't finding it right now.

There's plenty that actually is wrong with IBOC, it's not necessary to manufacture any srguments!<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by w9wi on 08/19/05 02:27 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> > However, I'm not quite curious to buy at the current price
>
> > point - especially as I have no intention of changing my
> car
> > radio & there don't seem to be any home models out yet.
>
> Try this....
> www.radiosophy.com

Looks like they've made quite a bit of progress there. IIRC last time I visited that site they weren't ready to commit to a shipping date & weren't supporting multiple streams. I think they may have cut the price too. (they do still have almost an order of magnitude to go before they'll be able to compete with satellite. But for myself, I wouldn't be holding my nose to write a $270 check.)

I've bookmarked the site & will keep an eye on the shipping dates.
 
Re: Can you say axe to grind???

> Your argument is with "Mike-O" on the Houston board, which
> he posted on 9-4-05:
>
> "I drive to Dallas at least six to eight times a year and
> KLDE has been a regular to Centerville for years. I did some
> digging in the web last night and came across many articles
> that stated the analog signal lost 11% of the power when
> IBOC is installed, even Ibiquity acknowledges this. Now 11%
> percent wouldn't make that drastic difference, but there was
> one article by an engineer that stated the power loss can
> actually be up to 60% of the analog signal, depending on the
> installation. Does anyone have any reports on KKRW, they are
> using IBOC aren't they? There are too many articles to list,
> go to the search engine www.dogpile.com and enter in "Loss
> of Analog Coverage to FM stations with IBOC Digital radio"
> and you will get a ton of returns."
>
> So before calling a fellow professional a fool, perhaps it
> would be wise to check on Mike-O's claims, as verified by
> me, in this particular situation.
>
> Incidentally - my axe-to-grind has always been with AM IBOC,
> not FM. Please get your facts right next time.
>


A couple of things.... I do not visit the Houston board.

In regards to getting MY facts straight, YOUR post TITLED "NOPE -FM COVERAGE DECREASES!!!!" Sounds like you DO have a problem with FM after all.

<Sarcasm> Now how could I possibly go out on a limb and think you didnt have a problem with FM IBOC with a title like that??? </sarcasm>

Listen, I PERSONALLY have installed IBOC systems and tested them out. I dont need to check out "Mike-O's" claims. There is NO WAY with a properly engineered IBOC site that analog would decrease, let alone by 60%. If they are running into major losses into the circulator, that means it is not properly engineered! That would not be a problem with IBOC, but a problem with the engineering of the site! The circulator (which combines the analog and the digital signal into one antennas) is only ONE method of broadcasting IBOC on FM. The analog signal, with the proper level of analog increase due to circulator losses, will have the SAME power output as before IBOC. Hense NO analog coverage loss.

Also, I did try your Dogpile search. I found 13 articles listed and NONE of them relevant articles. That and your misunderstanding about the 11% power issues leaves me to say.... it is YOU that needs to get YOUR facts right! <Roll of eyes>

Also if you think I am a shill for IBOC you are wrong. I am a DXer and have posted numerous times about the problems of IBOC. BUT! I am not going to further misinformation.
 
> > > However, I'm not quite curious to buy at the current
> price
> >
> > > point - especially as I have no intention of changing my
>
> > car
> > > radio & there don't seem to be any home models out yet.
> >
> > Try this....
> > www.radiosophy.com
>
> Looks like they've made quite a bit of progress there. IIRC
> last time I visited that site they weren't ready to commit
> to a shipping date & weren't supporting multiple streams. I
> think they may have cut the price too. (they do still have
> almost an order of magnitude to go before they'll be able to
> compete with satellite. But for myself, I wouldn't be
> holding my nose to write a $270 check.)
>
> I've bookmarked the site & will keep an eye on the shipping
> dates.
>

I hear you.

We ordered a few of these for our stations. They told us that the radios are on a ship steaming for the US. When we get ours I can do a review. They should be here early Septmeber.

What I like about them is that they can handle HD-2 and HD-3. Also they have a USB port for upgrading. It looks like they actually put some thought into this radio.
 
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