Will the Phoenix market ever get an Urban AC station?

[Hamp]

I am just curious will the Phoenix market EVER get an Urban AC station? Granted Phoenix doesn't have a booming African-American population, but the ones that are there really don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. Not every African-American listens to hip-hop CHR (i.e., Kiss 104.7 and 101.5 Jamz), what about the black adults that live in PHX?

Maybe 95.5 should expanding its format to Urban AC/NAC Jazz. I am just saying. Add some smooth jazz specialty shows on the weekends (Sunday Jazz Brunch, for example.)

I am just throwing some ideas out here.

 

[davideduardo]

I am just curious will the Phoenix market EVER get an Urban AC station? Granted Phoenix doesn't have a booming African-American population, but the ones that are there really don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. Not every African-American listens to hip-hop CHR (i.e., Kiss 104.7 and 101.5 Jamz), what about the black adults that live in PHX?

A very rough average of some other markets shows that shares to Black stations (all formats) may be around two-thirds of the percentage of Adfrican Americans in the market. In other words, a market with 20% African Americans might have around 12 to 14 shares for stations specifically targeted at Blacks (the numbers vary considerably, so I am just creating a basis for an explanation). .

Phoenix is under 5% African American, so there might be around 3 to 3.5 shares. For Urban Contemporary, the potential is as much as half the total... meaning in Phoenix, the share potential is less than 2 shares. That is just not the right math for a station owner of one of the full signal radio stations. There might be a possibility for one of the marginal signal FMs, but the signal would limit further the available audience.

So, it's fairly unlikely that such a station would exist in Phoenix.

Anyone have any other opinion?

 

[KOHS]

Sirius/XM or internet radio. Better yet, buy Urban AC favorites and download them to an iPod. It might not be viable for a station to run an Urban AC format, but nothing is preventing you from running your own Urban AC on your iPod. ;D

I do like the idea of an expanded Ubran AC/NAC Jazz with smooth jazz shows thrown in on the weekends. Of course, if the rumors are true, the Coyote is on its way out to make room for the Nearly Bald One and Company to move to FM--Rush Radio.

 

[michael hagerty]

We had one in the 80s and 90s...KMJK, 106.9. It did about as well as David's math suggests.

 

[2Son]

I am just curious will the Phoenix market EVER get an Urban AC station? Granted Phoenix doesn't have a booming African-American population, but the ones that are there really don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. Not every African-American listens to hip-hop CHR (i.e., Kiss 104.7 and 101.5 Jamz), what about the black adults that live in PHX?

Maybe 95.5 should expanding its format to Urban AC/NAC Jazz. I am just saying. Add some smooth jazz specialty shows on the weekends (Sunday Jazz Brunch, for example.)

I am just throwing some ideas out here.

Although I do enjoy listening to Urban AC music, I'm curious as to why you say African-Americans don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. What does that mean? I know quite a few who listen to Hip/Hop, Mega Oldies, Jazz, Adult Contemporary, alternative, etc. I wasn't quite sure African-Americans needed to be tied to having their own Urban AC music to listen to, otherwise they were underserved, although I do remember a time when as a young caucasian, I felt underserved when almost every "CHR" played exclusively rap, hip/hop to the point where they were no longer CHR's.

 

[johndavis]

Phoenix is under 5% African American, so there might be around 3 to 3.5 shares. For Urban Contemporary, the potential is as much as half the total... meaning in Phoenix, the share potential is less than 2 shares. That is just not the right math for a station owner of one of the full signal radio stations. There might be a possibility for one of the marginal signal FMs, but the signal would limit further the available audience.

So, it's fairly unlikely that such a station would exist in Phoenix.

Anyone have any other opinion?

The math hasn't changed since the last time there was an Urban AC station in the market. Kiss 1230 got just about a 1 share. When KMJK signed on out of Buckeye, the two stations combined never exceeded a 1 share.

I remember from looking at the diary data for Kiss it was a low cume, high TSL format. We might have gotten a handful of diaries in South Phoenix, but they listened for 6 and a half hours a day. PPM is not kind to low cuming formats.

That's not to say that Urban AC doesn't work in PPM - look at KMJQ in Houston. The difference is in the size of the African American population. While Urban AC's get some Latino and white adults, it's not a big chunk.

If anyone tries Urban AC again, it's going to be on a rimshot unless there's an unprecedented demographic shift. You would need Sheriff Joe's wet dream: a mass exodus of Latinos... and a Nativist's nightmare: a mass influx of African Americans.

I'd like to see someone try a Rhythmic AC again. I thought Alan Burns had a good idea with the Movin' format, but I hated those cheesy condescending liners back when he was putting them between Whitney Houston records in early 90's Hot AC. If somebody like Jerry Clifton who knows how to speak to many cultures at once without talking down to any of them were to tinker with that format it might turn out better the second time around.

 

[KeithE4]

We had one in the 80s and 90s...KMJK, 106.9. It did about as well as David's math suggests.

Being licensed to Buckeye, KMJK would do even worse today. Since much of the city's middle class-and-higher black population is on the southeast side (especially in Ahwatukee east of 40th St, and the area of 48th St. & Baseline), a Buckeye-based station wouldn't make it that far.

 

[johndavis]

We had one in the 80s and 90s...KMJK, 106.9. It did about as well as David's math suggests.

Being licensed to Buckeye, KMJK would do even worse today. Since much of the city's middle class-and-higher black population is on the southeast side (especially in Ahwatukee east of 40th St, and the area of 48th St. & Baseline), a Buckeye-based station wouldn't make it that far.

At least people live out in that direction now. When KMJK signed on in 1991, there were more cacti than people covered by 106.9's signal, and 107.1 in Apache Junction kept it from getting any closer to town.

Now that Entravision own both 106.9 and 107.1 and can simulcast, that combined station has its best chance to do something, but neither signal is very good.

 

[KeithE4]

At least people live out in that direction now. When KMJK signed on in 1991, there were more cacti than people covered by 106.9's signal, and 107.1 in Apache Junction kept it from getting any closer to town.

Now that Entravision own both 106.9 and 107.1 and can simulcast, that combined station has its best chance to do something, but neither signal is very good.

Weren't they going to move 107.1 to Shaw Butte a few years back (licensed to Peoria, IIRC), and shut down 106.9? I thought there were some FCC allocation changes that were going to allow that.

 

[johndavis]

At least people live out in that direction now. When KMJK signed on in 1991, there were more cacti than people covered by 106.9's signal, and 107.1 in Apache Junction kept it from getting any closer to town.

Now that Entravision own both 106.9 and 107.1 and can simulcast, that combined station has its best chance to do something, but neither signal is very good.

Weren't they going to move 107.1 to Shaw Butte a few years back (licensed to Peoria, IIRC), and shut down 106.9? I thought there were some FCC allocation changes that were going to allow that.

I remember something like that, too. There's a new non-comm and several translators licensed to Buckeye now, so they can turn off or move away the 106.9 without Buckeye losing "service." For that matter, the 1260 in AJ gives KVVA cover to leave Apache Junction.

 

[EricStein]

At least people live out in that direction now. When KMJK signed on in 1991, there were more cacti than people covered by 106.9's signal, and 107.1 in Apache Junction kept it from getting any closer to town.

Now that Entravision own both 106.9 and 107.1 and can simulcast, that combined station has its best chance to do something, but neither signal is very good.

Weren't they going to move 107.1 to Shaw Butte a few years back (licensed to Peoria, IIRC), and shut down 106.9? I thought there were some FCC allocation changes that were going to allow that.

I remember something like that, too. There's a new non-comm and several translators licensed to Buckeye now, so they can turn off or move away the 106.9 without Buckeye losing "service." For that matter, the 1260 in AJ gives KVVA cover to leave Apache Junction.

I thought the plan was to move 103.5's COL from Glendale to Buckeye, then move 107.1 to Shaw Butte (COL Peoria)? Things must have changed since then.

 

[EricStein]

We had one in the 80s and 90s...KMJK, 106.9. It did about as well as David's math suggests.

Being licensed to Buckeye, KMJK would do even worse today. Since much of the city's middle class-and-higher black population is on the southeast side (especially in Ahwatukee east of 40th St, and the area of 48th St. & Baseline), a Buckeye-based station wouldn't make it that far.

While an AM like 1230 KISO would have worked (and did) in 1995, the demand for music in any format (other than standards, and that is even a shoot given the numbers for KOY in PPM times) on AM is just about zero these days. The ideal FM signal for the format would be 105.5 when (or if) it makes the move to its planned site with Maricopa COL. EMF specializes in one format only, so the chances of hearing UAC on 105.5 are very slim, unless they find a buyer who will try it after they move K-Love's 89.1 signal to the White Tanks.

 

[Hamp]

I am just curious will the Phoenix market EVER get an Urban AC station? Granted Phoenix doesn't have a booming African-American population, but the ones that are there really don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. Not every African-American listens to hip-hop CHR (i.e., Kiss 104.7 and 101.5 Jamz), what about the black adults that live in PHX?

Maybe 95.5 should expanding its format to Urban AC/NAC Jazz. I am just saying. Add some smooth jazz specialty shows on the weekends (Sunday Jazz Brunch, for example.)

I am just throwing some ideas out here.

Although I do enjoy listening to Urban AC music, I'm curious as to why you say African-Americans don't have anything to listen to on terrestial radio. What does that mean? I know quite a few who listen to Hip/Hop, Mega Oldies, Jazz, Adult Contemporary, alternative, etc. I wasn't quite sure African-Americans needed to be tied to having their own Urban AC music to listen to, otherwise they were underserved, although I do remember a time when as a young caucasian, I felt underserved when almost every "CHR" played exclusively rap, hip/hop to the point where they were no longer CHR's.

I think you are missing my point. Of course, African-Americans listen to more than just Urban Music, but what about the ones that want to hear the latest jams like Maxwell, Jill Scott etc. You just don't hear that type of R&B in the Phoenix market unless it goes mainstream.

 

[Hamp]

Let me make my point clear, I wasn't in any way trying to pigeonhole a group of people. All I am saying is, African-American ADULTS in Phoenix aren't very catered to when it comes to radio. Not saying that audience doesn't listen to other music, but wouldn't they want to hear some actual R&B and not just Hip-Hop????

I really think Clear Channel Phoenix should do some sort of Urban AC/NAC Jazz hybrid with "The Coyote." You just have to figure out when to play the smooth jazz cuts and when to play the Urban AC cuts. It is tricky, but not impossible.

 

[2Son]

Let me make my point clear, I wasn't in any way trying to pigeonhole a group of people. All I am saying is, African-American ADULTS in Phoenix aren't very catered to when it comes to radio. Not saying that audience doesn't listen to other music, but wouldn't they want to hear some actual R&B and not just Hip-Hop????

I really think Clear Channel Phoenix should do some sort of Urban AC/NAC Jazz hybrid with "The Coyote." You just have to figure out when to play the smooth jazz cuts and when to play the Urban AC cuts. It is tricky, but not impossible.

I would really like a station such as you described.

 

[radioguy39nj]

We had one in the 80s and 90s...KMJK, 106.9. It did about as well as David's math suggests.

Being licensed to Buckeye, KMJK would do even worse today. Since much of the city's middle class-and-higher black population is on the southeast side (especially in Ahwatukee east of 40th St, and the area of 48th St. & Baseline), a Buckeye-based station wouldn't make it that far.

While an AM like 1230 KISO would have worked (and did) in 1995, the demand for music in any format (other than standards, and that is even a shoot given the numbers for KOY in PPM times) on AM is just about zero these days. The ideal FM signal for the format would be 105.5 when (or if) it makes the move to its planned site with Maricopa COL. EMF specializes in one format only, so the chances of hearing UAC on 105.5 are very slim, unless they find a buyer who will try it after they move K-Love's 89.1 signal to the White Tanks.

Would a full signal on 105.5 in Maricopa interfere with the simlcast on 105.9 and 105.3?

 

[johndavis]

Let me make my point clear, I wasn't in any way trying to pigeonhole a group of people. All I am saying is, African-American ADULTS in Phoenix aren't very catered to when it comes to radio. Not saying that audience doesn't listen to other music, but wouldn't they want to hear some actual R&B and not just Hip-Hop????

I really think Clear Channel Phoenix should do some sort of Urban AC/NAC Jazz hybrid with "The Coyote." You just have to figure out when to play the smooth jazz cuts and when to play the Urban AC cuts. It is tricky, but not impossible.

Considering that in markets with a larger black population (example: Detroit, Cleveland) that very approach has tanked, then doing it in a city like Phoenix would send KYOT off a cliff.

Music radio programming 101: People will turn a station off if they don't recognize the music. The purpose of soft AC vocal cuts on NAC stations is to add familiar songs that fit the texture of the station. That means old Marvin Gaye & Hall & Oates records, not Jill Scott & other neo-soul artists. Instrumental cuts are either covers or songs that have enough exposure that people recognize them. Stations that play unfamilar music die, and stations that want to take you on a musical journey or expand your musical horizons don't make money. I'm all for art, but I also like to eat.

Urban AC is good for 1 share in Phoenix. We're talking about the death of KYOT while the station langushes in the 2's. Do the math. The market can't sustain Urban AC alone, and adding it to KYOT won't lift it out of 18th place. The only way you'll see Radio One setting up shop in Phoenix and launching an urban format is if there is a massive change in the city's demographics and more African American adults move to Phoenix. The city is largely anglo and hispanic and the available formats reflect that.

 

[johndavis]

While an AM like 1230 KISO would have worked (and did) in 1995, the demand for music in any format (other than standards, and that is even a shoot given the numbers for KOY in PPM times) on AM is just about zero these days. The ideal FM signal for the format would be 105.5 when (or if) it makes the move to its planned site with Maricopa COL. EMF specializes in one format only, so the chances of hearing UAC on 105.5 are very slim, unless they find a buyer who will try it after they move K-Love's 89.1 signal to the White Tanks.

I don't believe that people will automatically dismiss music on the AM band. However if there's a better choice available on FM, they'll take it. The only reason KISO beat direct competition on FM was the FM's signal was so bad that the lousy AM signal was a better choice. (and all the diaries seemed to fall in the same neighborhood as the 1230 transmitter site, so the nighttime coverage wasn't an issue) Had Art Mobley gotten the license for 103.5 instead of 106.9 he would have done much better.

If you were to go back further in time to the day of KUKQ's urban format and put it on today, it wouldn't do as well because many of the songs they would play are available on full market and rimshot FM signals. But if you have enough of an under-served niche, people will find you.

The biggest drawback to running any AM station is that the metropolitan area has outgrown all but one or two signals in every major city in the country. As a result, most AM stations are either pay to play or pay to pray.

 

[Wildstyle K]

Well I've forwarded a copy of this entire topic to Reverend Jessie Jackson because I'm sure he'd have something sensible to contribute to the conversation ;D ... ;D ;D

Anyway, I will say, though, that I did like Majik when I was younger. My friend was more on it than I was though because I was more in to Power 92 playing their evil dance hits and Y95 as well. My friend is an r&b/jazz freak. Not only does he perform at Jazz/r&b soul events, but works on it during his spare time at home. He's not a hip hop fan at all. Well, at least not with the type of stuff coming out these days. He's one of those "real music" musicians and fans, where the music has to be real with at least some thought put into the melody and the lyrics. If we had an Urban AC, I'd listen, but he'd probably be in heaven - IF I could get him to get back into radio today. As of right now, the only presets in his car are 95.5 and 91.5. If KFYI takes over 95.5, between the two of us, I would be the only one left with 95.5 somewhere in my presets ;D

Back in the day my mom and a few of her friends were in to the A.M. r&b station, big time. Whenever I wasn't being a radio nazi, that's the station they'd have it on. I believe the urban ac's we had all "won" by default for a time, until of course urban hits became the new top 40 and we had "new" stations that made sure to cover that sound. I still don't see Urban AC working with the direction music is headed in today. However, I guess maybe another slow jams and dedications type show could still work somewhere on the dial during a specified time..