Will The Real DOO-WOP Please stand up-who are you

[hornet61]

I'm seeing some new thoughts here lately....Doo-Wop definition is in the eye of the beholder or in our case the publications we consult, or what station we grew up listening to, or what part of the country we are from.... Today I received "The Encyclopedia of R&B /Doo-Wop vocal Groups" written by Mitch Rosalsky..the forward by Dennis Orstrom ( I don't know who he is) Orstrom echoed my opening statement almost verbatim...including Gossert as a possible candidate for coining the term. My observation came from years of collaborating with NY, NJ Pittsburg and Philly guys(Don't know any Chicago guys, the only reason I didn't include CHI-TOWN) comparing record collections and our recollections of what sounds fit where and what our consensus was. Again this is a very East Coast definition, and this particular publication slants our way ...... Mr Rosalsky said there is no exact definition of Doo-Wop ask ten people and you will get ten answers...He's doesn't even like the term doo-Wop........but if asked he would reply "music recorded and performed from the latter 50's to mid -60's by white quartets and quintets".He choose to refer to R&B and Doo-Wop as separate entities as the title for the referenced publication.

Again this is just one many different publications than go in many directions, yes a very subjective-subject (oh my God can you use those two words together?). The majority of publications paint a broader picture of Doo-Wop, than I Do.......but, one point I am still very adamant about, is the brush stroke has gotten way too wide.. to me the Platters, Little Anthony, Coasters, Drifters, Dominoes etc are POP/R&B...the only wide stroke is that they are all part of the Rock and Roll ERA....Era is different from Doo-Wop.

 

[GridLeakBias]

I appreciate the the definition of Jazz. I was attempting to make the point that all genres of music are areas for strong debate

Thanks Ed, I recognized where you were going with your questions. I only threw the lengthy Jazz definition in as an exercise. ;D

The rest was just my somewhat crude sense of humor. :

 

[GridLeakBias]

…Today I received "The Encyclopedia of R&B /Doo-Wop vocal Groups" written by Mitch Rosalsky … Mr Rosalsky … if asked … would reply "music recorded and performed from the latter 50's to mid -60's by white quartets and quintets".

I have not seen this publication and would be interested to do so.

That said, I have two questions for you: Does this encyclopedia include only white doo-wop groups, and, which years does he reference?

 

[hornet61]

…Today I received "The Encyclopedia of R&B /Doo-Wop vocal Groups" written by Mitch Rosalsky … Mr Rosalsky … if asked … would reply "music recorded and performed from the latter 50's to mid -60's by white quartets and quintets".

I have not seen this publication and would be interested to do so.

That said, I have two questions for you: Does this encyclopedia include only white doo-wop groups, and, which years does he reference?

This Publication addresses both R&B and Doo-Wop it is all inclusive, Danleers, Dubs, Drifters right next to Billy and the Essentials, Cubs, Cues,Daffodils all the heavyweights with the lesser known. I don't like the term obscure groups, because they are only obscure if the person using that term never heard of them. There is a group of East Coast Purists that collect everything Doo-Wop which includes all lesser known doo-wop groups and can quote all the Bio's, again from the late 50's to mid -60's era. And these are the guys I hang with and have influenced me the most....I personally can't quote that stuff , I don't own as much, as they do, I have a more broad collection. This book is 703 pages , 60% lesser known groups, certainly the average listener is better of with a Norm Nite or Joel Whitburn book, and It was on sale at Amazon.com. The time period is late 40's - mid 60's.

I read your doo-wop link....it was interesting...I didn't think anyone could come up with that many variations of doo-wop categories.

 

[GridLeakBias]

This Publication addresses both R&B and Doo-Wop it is all inclusive … The time period is late 40's - mid 60's.

Thanks Hornet, I’m glad to see the extended time period and the inclusion of lesser-known groups. I’ll probably add this pub to my library, one can never have too many references, especially when the subject is controversial.

I read your doo-wop link....it was interesting...I didn't think anyone could come up with that many variations of doo-wop categories.

Your observation is correct, there exists a subtle irony in the definition of various music genres and subsets. Doo-wop is a classic example of this.

To end my discussion of music genre definitions, I can say that I agree with Duke Ellington. When asked to define the music he played, Duke Ellington summed it up by saying, "It's all music."

Nuff said.

 

[hornet61]

The previous posts on "covers" reminds me of the problem with defining doo-wop. Bear with me while I digress:
A cover originally meant a record that was put out AT THE SAME TIME to compete with the original versions. It was very common for a hit song in the 40s to have a number of recorded versions on the charts at the same time (eg: a male vocal, a female vocal, an instrumental). By the early 50s, covers of hit SONGS were made for different markets (pop, Country, R&B) because radio programs or jukebox locations would not have played the song recorded in another genre. Also, sometimes a bigger label with better distribution would cover a breaking record by a smaller label. Today ANY re-recording is commonly referred to as a cover. We have lost a perfectly good term.
When I first heard the term doo-wop it was in the 1968 record "Bring Back Those Doo-wops" by the Bagdads on Double Shot, which mentioned a number of older songs. This was way before Nader and Gossert popularized the term. While I don't suggest that the songs mentioned in that record were all inclusive, today the term doo-wop is commonly used to encompass a much greater variety of styles of music. Doo-wop was not a term that we used in the late 50s-early 60s when the iconic doo-wop songs were current. Although I would prefer to see it applied only to the songs that Gossert used it to describe, like "cover", I expect I will see its definition change by popular usage.
Now if someone would would only define Jazz, Country, Northern Soul and Belgian Popcorn.

First let me say Ed (may I call you Ed)what a big fan I am of your work.....along with the recently departed Bill Drake, you each have produced some of the best, if not the best Rock-u-mentaries, in Radio programming history. The "History of Rock and Roll" and "Rock, Roll and Remember" are among the best ever. I am a big fan of covers and re-recordings.. I Love to compare the covers and debate the quality of the original and the remake. Covers usaully lose in our debates..but there have been some dandy cover's through out the 50's - 80's.. I have always felt the Diamonds Cover of "Little Darlin' "was superior to the original by the Gladiola's... and the Crew-Cuts cover of Sh-boom being pretty much equal to the Chords. Billy Idol did a wonderful job with Mony Mony, given the inferior quality of the original...Los Lobos did justice to La Bamba. And in England a young fellow by the name of Shakin' Stevens did some marvelous work with many American classics such as Green Door, Reet Petite, etc......Stateside Robert Gordon is Rockabilly sumpreme in his covers of "It's Only Make Believe", "Walk On By", "Red Hot and so forth. And the Vee's, son's of your friend Bobby Vee are recording some pretty nice 50's stuff. Again a pleasure reading your thoughts.

 

[Ed_Salamon]

Thank you for your kind comments. I do love the music of the 50s and 60's and I'm glad it showed in the shows I wrote and/or produced voiced by Dick Clark, Norm N. Nite, Cousin Brucie, Dick Bartley and many others. Likewise I am a huge Bill Drake fan and was able to spend time with him in LA in the 90s. I enjoyed talking (and debating) music with all of them and each cared as passionately about the music as you and I do. Speaking of debate, I prefer Tommy James' original of "Mony Mony". I think Tommy and Richie Cordell got a great party sound on that record.

 

[hornet61]

Yes sir Ed, it was a wonderful era and the music was pretty dogone good... Tomy James' "Hanky Panky" opens up the story of "Garage band Hits"...... a term I'm really not too fond of. A classic in that respect is "96 Tears" by ? and the Mysterians, and maybe "Peter Rabbit" by DJ and the Runaways. Certainly Tommy James grew into quite a talent and his later body of work was technically superb in production terms such as "Crysal Blue", "Crimson and Clover". I had a senor moment and was actually in my mind thinking of "Hanky Panky" as the more Garage Band type hit...Mony, Mony was much better. As a historian was Norm Nite one of the top historians , your resume certainly places you up there equal with him, what other producers excelled in that area, beside you and Mr Nite.

 

[hornet61]

The biggest problem with this question that the best DOO-WOP by major artists actually never charted and what did chart probably is not DOO-WOP

I'm puzzled by this statement, so I ask you to provide some some definitions:
Best Doo-wop = ?
Major artists = ?
Charted: To which chart do you refer, and what position?

This is not a challenge, merely a need for clarification. I may agree with you, or disagree, depending.

Hey GLB great question, got past my radar.....we were done with this subject a few weeks ago...but I would like to answer your questions.

"The biggest problem with this question that the best DOO-WOP by major artists actually never charted and what did chart probably is not DOO-WOP" - Here I am refering to acts such as Danny and the juniors, Capri's, Elegants who are generally considered primarily East Coast Doo-Wop groups, and some of their recordings were "True Doo-Wop" per my definition as stated on opening comments, and their other work which charted was more standard Rock N' Roll.
My original statement "Pure Doo-Wop- 4-5 Five Part Harmony, a lot of nonsense syllables, simple arrangements, staccato delivery*….. These were all elements of Rock N’ Roll , but they combined them all, and took them to the next level". I know that sounds a little convoluted, I have a hard time, expressing this concept of mine.Ok, onward.


Danny and The Jrs - At The Hop (pure Rock N Roll) (Charted #1)
Danny and the Jrs - I Feel So Lonely (Pure Doo-Wop*) never charted

"I Feel So Lonely"
Background Vocals by the Jr's( behind Danny Rapp) through-out the song delivered at about 95mph

Doom..da...da...Dom..dat..dat...dat
Oooh Wah..Waaaah....Waaaaaah..Ooooh Waah

Best Doo-Wop: the following are 4-5 member groups

I Feel So Lonely - Danny And The Jrs
Morse Code Of Love - all versions (exceptional version by Manhattan Transfer)
Barbara - Encores (Nonsence syllable lyrics supreme) 120mph
Don't Run away - Nino and the Ebbtides
What Do Lovers Do - Earl Lewis and the Channels
Bell are Ringing - Jay and The Deltas
I dont want your Love - Rick and the Masters
Please Don't Ask Me To Be Lonely - Dubs ... (Dooby Dooby Doo, background.....)
Zing Went the Strings of My Heart - Coasters (slower) some beautiful harmony - Doo-Wop with the Calypso Beat or Cha Cha beat Background answer vocals "Dip....Dipdip...dipdididip... to that rich baritone and sax solos.
Sheik Of Araby - Colts (Exact arrangement to zing by the Coasters)
Could You Adore Me - The Vocaleers
Darling You I Love - Vocaleers
Stormy Weather - DC Finest (Modern Acapella Doo-WOP) recorded in 2003

this a small example there tons more. Ace Records out of the UK ( not to be confused with Ace Records , Jackson Miss)has released some first class compilations.

Major Doo-Wop artists: (Again, their best known stuff may not be Pure Doo-Wop, but they are considered major Doo-Wop, east coast defiinition, alot of their non-charted is what I am talking about)

Dupress
Earls
Vito and the Salutions
Capris
Dion
Del Satins
Randy and the Rainbows
Devotions
Nino and the Ebbtides
Mystics
Passions

Charts: Of course we always refer to the Hot 100 and the R&b Charts.

My Philly and NY buddies shared their 45 collections and their knowledge and I learned so much from them.... Ricky Angemi from Philly turned me on to the group that is now one my favorites " Billy and the Essentials", Rick Falzarano from White Plains and I share a huge passion for "The Passions" and "Randy and the Rainbows", Joe Capone introduced me to the real Mystics...of course I only knew "Hushabye"...he introduced me "Don't Take The Stars" (woweeee) These guys lived this music, I loved It long distance.

My man is Dion . Fire up "Donna The Prima Donna" or "Love Came To Me" on your cd player, and just listen to the background vocals...It don't get any better...If you want to get the ultimate Doo-Wop DVD "Dion In Concert" All of the above is a very narrow definition shared by a small few, I understand that, it is just my look at what I call pure Doo-Wop.
The End

 

[Silkie]

Don't forget The Marcels and The Court Jesters

 

[GridLeakBias]

Don't forget The Marcels and The Court Jesters

No way we could leave out the Marcels with their classic doo-wop recording of “Blue Moon”.

But, the Court Jesters?

Do you mean the east coast quartet, the Jesters? They enjoyed local airplay and some national exposure in 1957 with “So Strange”, “Please Let Me Love You” and “The Plea”. The Winley label distributor had a bright idea in 1959 and a “battle of the bands” album was produced, entitled “The Paragons Meet The Jesters “. (The Paragons also recorded on the Winley label.) This album renewed public interest in the Jesters and they went on to record “The Wind”, another east coast hit.

 

[radioman148]

Don't forget The Marcels and The Court Jesters

No way we could leave out the Marcels with their classic doo-wop recording of “Blue Moon”.

But, the Court Jesters?

Do you mean the east coast quartet, the Jesters? They enjoyed local airplay and some national exposure in 1957 with “So Strange”, “Please Let Me Love You” and “The Plea”. The Winley label distributor had a bright idea in 1959 and a “battle of the bands” album was produced, entitled “The Paragons Meet The Jesters “. (The Paragons also recorded on the Winley label.) This album renewed public interest in the Jesters and they went on to record “The Wind”, another east coast hit.

"Blue Moon" is good. but I prefer the Marcells version of "Heartaches".

 

[GridLeakBias]

The biggest problem with this question that the best DOO-WOP by major artists actually never charted and what did chart probably is not DOO-WOP

I'm puzzled by this statement, so I ask you to provide some some definitions:
Best Doo-wop = ?
Major artists = ?
Charted: To which chart do you refer, and what position?

This is not a challenge, merely a need for clarification. I may agree with you, or disagree, depending.

Hey GLB great question, got past my radar.....we were done with this subject a few weeks ago...but I would like to answer your questions.

"The biggest problem with this question that the best DOO-WOP by major artists actually never charted and what did chart probably is not DOO-WOP" - Here I am refering to acts such as Danny and the juniors, Capri's, Elegants who are generally considered primarily East Coast Doo-Wop groups, and some of their recordings were "True Doo-Wop" per my definition as stated on opening comments, and their other work which charted was more standard Rock N' Roll.
My original statement "Pure Doo-Wop- 4-5 Five Part Harmony, a lot of nonsense syllables, simple arrangements, staccato delivery*….. These were all elements of Rock N’ Roll , but they combined them all, and took them to the next level". I know that sounds a little convoluted, I have a hard time, expressing this concept of mine.Ok, onward.


Danny and The Jrs - At The Hop (pure Rock N Roll) (Charted #1)
Danny and the Jrs - I Feel So Lonely (Pure Doo-Wop*) never charted

"I Feel So Lonely"
Background Vocals by the Jr's( behind Danny Rapp) through-out the song delivered at about 95mph

Doom..da...da...Dom..dat..dat...dat
Oooh Wah..Waaaah....Waaaaaah..Ooooh Waah

Best Doo-Wop: the following are 4-5 member groups

I Feel So Lonely - Danny And The Jrs
Morse Code Of Love - all versions (exceptional version by Manhattan Transfer)
Barbara - Encores (Nonsence syllable lyrics supreme) 120mph
Don't Run away - Nino and the Ebbtides
What Do Lovers Do - Earl Lewis and the Channels
Bell are Ringing - Jay and The Deltas
I dont want your Love - Rick and the Masters
Please Don't Ask Me To Be Lonely - Dubs ... (Dooby Dooby Doo, background.....)
Zing Went the Strings of My Heart - Coasters (slower) some beautiful harmony - Doo-Wop with the Calypso Beat or Cha Cha beat Background answer vocals "Dip....Dipdip...dipdididip... to that rich baritone and sax solos.
Sheik Of Araby - Colts (Exact arrangement to zing by the Coasters)
Could You Adore Me - The Vocaleers
Darling You I Love - Vocaleers
Stormy Weather - DC Finest (Modern Acapella Doo-WOP) recorded in 2003

this a small example there tons more. Ace Records out of the UK ( not to be confused with Ace Records , Jackson Miss)has released some first class compilations.

Major Doo-Wop artists: (Again, their best known stuff may not be Pure Doo-Wop, but they are considered major Doo-Wop, east coast defiinition, alot of their non-charted is what I am talking about)

Dupress
Earls
Vito and the Salutions
Capris
Dion
Del Satins
Randy and the Rainbows
Devotions
Nino and the Ebbtides
Mystics
Passions

Charts: Of course we always refer to the Hot 100 and the R&b Charts.

My Philly and NY buddies shared their 45 collections and their knowledge and I learned so much from them.... Ricky Angemi from Philly turned me on to the group that is now one my favorites " Billy and the Essentials", Rick Falzarano from White Plains and I share a huge passion for "The Passions" and "Randy and the Rainbows", Joe Capone introduced me to the real Mystics...of course I only knew "Hushabye"...he introduced me "Don't Take The Stars" (woweeee) These guys lived this music, I loved It long distance.

My man is Dion . Fire up "Donna The Prima Donna" or "Love Came To Me" on your cd player, and just listen to the background vocals...It don't get any better...If you want to get the ultimate Doo-Wop DVD "Dion In Concert" All of the above is a very narrow definition shared by a small few, I understand that, it is just my look at what I call pure Doo-Wop.
The End

Thanks Hornet – I had to do some review because so much time has passed since I posed the questions. I agree with a lot of your picks (for best groups) and I’ll add a few of my own picks to your list.

One current issue where many disagree is on the doo-wop genre itself. As has been stated before, some jocks will front-sell their next tune as doo-wop and then spin “Only You” by the Platters. Great vocals but clearly not doo-wop.

My question concerning major artists was, at best, a humorous attempt to discover how one determines “major artist” status. Is it by sales, or airplay, or charts? Example: The Charms had a #1 R&B hit with their 1954 single, “Hearts of Stone.” They had several other Top10 R&B hits, such as "Ling, Ting, Tong," "Two Hearts," "Ivory Tower," and "United," but they seldom get any airplay. Myself, I would say that the Charms fit into the category of “major artist”, but I’m sure many would disagree.

As for charts, of course we would be talking about the R&B chart for doo-wop, and I would think that any recording within the top10 R&B would be considered a hit.

With all this in mind, I give you a number of doo-wop artists who had hits in the top10, and some who didn’t but deserve mention:
the Elegants – Little Star (topped R&B and pop charts)
the Cleftones – Little Girl Of Mine (#8 R&B)
the Jive-Five – My True Story (#1 R&B, #3 pop)
the Crows – Gee (#2 R&B, #14 Pop)
the Duprees – You Belong To Me (doo-wop version of pop standard)
the Five Satins – In The Still of the Night (#3 R&B on the Ember Label)
the Marcels – Blue Moon (topped R&B and pop charts); Heartaches (#7 pop, #19 R&B)
the Charms – Hearts of Stone (#1 R&B)
the Capris – There’s a Moon Out Tonight (national hit on Lost Nite and Old Town labels)
the Channels – The Closer You Are
the Dubs – Could This Be Magic
the Jesters – (two recordings) So Strange – and - The Plea
the Videos – Trickle Trickle

There’s no way I could close a session without including Dion - "A Teenager in Love" and "Where or When", and "Ruby Baby". (You mention “Donna The Prima Donna”. Vocal backing was by the Del-Satins, who backed Dion from early ’60 until late ’63. My opinion: the Del-Satins were as good, if not better, than the Belmonts.)

Regards...

 

[hornet61]

GLB Amen to all of the Above.........Del Satins (morphed into Brooklyn Bridge w/Johnny Maestro) had a couple of nice cuts that I listen to alot "Does My Love Stand A Chance" and "I'll never Know" . Also, funny you mentioned that Paragons vs the Jesters, that Lp took on a life of It's own in the collector's world, and was even released on Cd. I alway had a problem with the fidelity of the Jesters recordings. Paragons(Brooklyn, very good on the Winley Label, thats tough one to find) not to be confused with the Paradons (Bakersfield), who recorded "Diamonds and Pearls". The Paradons got their name when a couple of the members told a young lady that they were Don Juan's ......A Pair Of Don's = Paradons.

 

[TheFonz]

One current issue where many disagree is on the doo-wop genre itself. As has been stated before, some jocks will front-sell their next tune as doo-wop and then spin “Only You” by the Platters. Great vocals but clearly not doo-wop.

With all this in mind, I give you a number of doo-wop artists who had hits in the top10, and some who didn’t but deserve mention:
the Elegants – Little Star (topped R&B and pop charts)
the Cleftones – Little Girl Of Mine (#8 R&B)
the Jive-Five – My True Story (#1 R&B, #3 pop)
the Crows – Gee (#2 R&B, #14 Pop)
the Duprees – You Belong To Me (doo-wop version of pop standard)
the Five Satins – In The Still of the Night (#3 R&B on the Ember Label)
the Marcels – Blue Moon (topped R&B and pop charts); Heartaches (#7 pop, #19 R&B)
the Charms – Hearts of Stone (#1 R&B)
the Capris – There’s a Moon Out Tonight (national hit on Lost Nite and Old Town labels)
the Channels – The Closer You Are
the Dubs – Could This Be Magic
the Jesters – (two recordings) So Strange – and - The Plea
the Videos – Trickle Trickle

O..K. I'm having a bit of a problem following all of this. Explain again why "Only You" isn't Doo Wop, but "Could This Be Magic" is.

 

[Silkie]

Don't forget The Marcels and The Court Jesters

No way we could leave out the Marcels with their classic doo-wop recording of “Blue Moon”.

But, the Court Jesters?

Do you mean the east coast quartet, the Jesters? They enjoyed local airplay and some national exposure in 1957 with “So Strange”, “Please Let Me Love You” and “The Plea”. The Winley label distributor had a bright idea in 1959 and a “battle of the bands” album was produced, entitled “The Paragons Meet The Jesters “. (The Paragons also recorded on the Winley label.) This album renewed public interest in the Jesters and they went on to record “The Wind”, another east coast hit.

No, I mean, The Court Jesters. I believe this little ditty might have been around in about 1953:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnPesE1xWMU&feature=related&pos=12

The Marcels also had a goody with "My Melancholy Baby", which started out sounding like "Blue Moon", but was cut short by "Nah, not that thing again! Sing Melancholy Baby...alright, we will". LOL

 

[GridLeakBias]

Don't forget The Marcels and The Court Jesters

No way we could leave out the Marcels with their classic doo-wop recording of “Blue Moon”.

But, the Court Jesters?

Do you mean the east coast quartet, the Jesters? They enjoyed local airplay and some national exposure in 1957 with “So Strange”, “Please Let Me Love You” and “The Plea”. The Winley label distributor had a bright idea in 1959 and a “battle of the bands” album was produced, entitled “The Paragons Meet The Jesters “. (The Paragons also recorded on the Winley label.) This album renewed public interest in the Jesters and they went on to record “The Wind”, another east coast hit.

No, I mean, The Court Jesters. I believe this little ditty might have been around in about 1953:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnPesE1xWMU&feature=related&pos=12

The Marcels also had a goody with "My Melancholy Baby", which started out sounding like "Blue Moon", but was cut short by "Nah, not that thing again! Sing Melancholy Baby...alright, we will". LOL

Well thanks for the link, Silkie, somehow I missed the Court Jesters in my studies and I found this uptempo humorous recording (Roaches) refreshing to listen to. I wonder, is that a King Curtis sax solo on the bridge? Curtis became a much sought after session player around 1956 or so … this sounds like his honking tenor sax. Not sure what work he performed after he finished touring with Lionel Hampton in the early 50s.

Re: the Marcels. All their recordings were marvelous, they were true doo-wop artists.

Regards...

 

[hornet61]

The Earls lead singer Larry Chance (aka Larry Figeuroa) moved to NY from Philly in 1957 and formed the Earls, with some NY guys. I just read that in the Encyclopedia of Doo-Wop and R&B groups, I had previously blasted a local DJ for an errant call (referring the Earls as being from Philly), he was partially right and I have to give him that. I stand corrected, fair is fair.

 

[radioman148]

>>The Marcels also had a goody with "My Melancholy Baby", which started out sounding like "Blue Moon", but was cut short by "Nah, not that thing again! Sing Melancholy Baby...alright, we will". >>

They did the same thing in "Heartaches" where they said "here we go again".

 

[Silkie]

They did the same thing in "Heartaches" where they said "here we go again".

Actually they sang, "Here we go again" at the intro; however, they did speak a verse. "My Melancholy Baby" makes you giggle at their tone and antics.