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Will WPHT Ever Get A Challenger?

DToTheJ

DToTheJ

With all the speculation regarding the possibilities as to what Greater Media could do with 97.5, and what they are going to do with 950, it occurred to me:

Philadelphia has two major sports talkers, but when it comes to talk radio, there is only WPHT. WNTP is kind of a non-factor with a lot of satellite programming.

Do you think there will ever be a station that will compete with WPHT, which is vulnerable in some areas? And which station do you think will make the change?
 
I don't expect it. WIP is already a challenger as it is guy talk. WNTP is the conservative challenger. WYSP tried a "Hot Talk" challenge. WWDB-AM tries "money talk", no luck except when they had Imus, and that was only during the summer months when they could sign-on earlier.

WWDB-FM had to give up since they had so few callers.

Although talk radio has a lot of listeners, there really are too few callers to make it locally. I can't see anyone going to the expense for so little return.
 
WTUX said:
I don't expect it. WIP is already a challenger as it is guy talk. WNTP is the conservative challenger. WYSP tried a "Hot Talk" challenge. WWDB-AM tries "money talk", no luck except when they had Imus, and that was only during the summer months when they could sign-on earlier.

WWDB-FM had to give up since they had so few callers.

Although talk radio has a lot of listeners, there really are too few callers to make it locally. I can't see anyone going to the expense for so little return.
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WIP and WYSP are owned by CBS Radio and were operated in conjunction (and not in competition) with WPHT. The last straight-on talker here, other than WPHT, was WWDB-FM. Many markets have two issues-related talkers in competition, including 50 kw AM vs. FM markets like Boston, Minneapolis and Pittsburgh. Markets with solid AM talk competition include LA, San Francisco, Denver, Baltimore and (to a lesser extent) New York. In other words, it can be done. And, Boston's WTKK is a Greater Media station - very convenient synergy.

But, if GM were to go that way with 97.5, they would need to wrestle away some solid syndicated fare from the likes of WPHT and WNTP (which is truly a non-entity). Grabbing away Savage and Coast to Coast AM from the respective local stations who are carrying them on a delayed or shifted basis would be helpful and - probably not that hard to do. Combine that with solid local AM and PM drive hosts and you can at least get going. It takes a long time to build a talk following, which is why a lot of companies are reluctant to try this. However, over time, you can build pretty respectable ratings. And also, over time, you can steal away the top syndicated programming.

WPHT is badly in need of competition. For example, I hopped in the car this morning and Smerco was talking Phillies. So, what is one to do for issues related talk? The Imus snooze-fest? WNTP and "Morning in America"? Neither is a decent alternative. I'd love to see someone give WPHT a run for their money. It would be nice to have solid drive-time talk alternatives to Smonish and Sean "Harvey Wallbanger" Hannity.

This idea is not so far-fetched because it's been done elsewhere. In fact, I think that GM blew out smooth jazz for talk in Boston a couple of years ago (which involved some station/format juggling).

Hmmmm... :eek:
 
Mainstream issues talk skews too old for FM. It'd have to be AM unless it was going to skew way younger and not be entirely issues-oriented. Does anyone think mainstream issues talk on, say, 106.1 would earn more revenue than what's currently on there? Higher 12+ ratings, maybe, but higher revenue (and higher profits)? With demos that old and content that expensive?

If Clear Channel would do it on 106.1 and could grab Premiere Radio talent like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck back from 1210? Maybe. But WWDB had Rush and couldn't make it.

If it's AM, the only signals in the market worth talking about, that aren't owned by CBS, are 560, 950, and 990. Salem and Greater Media, unless someone else buys one. Salem isn't going to go more "mainstream" than what they've already got on 990. Greater Media, maybe. But I bet a secondary syndicated sports station will bill better than a secondary syndicated talk station, if only because of younger demos.

If Greater Media wanted to do talk on FM, they could do a lot worse than moving Preston and Steve over there to be the flagship show.
 
DToTheJ said:
Philadelphia has two major sports talkers, but when it comes to talk radio, there is only WPHT. WNTP is kind of a non-factor with a lot of satellite programming.
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WPHT is mostly syndicated talkers, too, and all preaching the same tired message to the same aging audience. The fact is most major markets have few local talk shows outside morning drive, not like the days when WWDB and WCAU created a whole day of local talk. The closest to FM 'mainstream' talk here is NJ 101.5, but that's geared to Jersey topics and traffic. "Radio Times" on WHYY will deal with hot with local topics but also many hours could be another 'national' show. An FM talk station somewhere between repeating stale political talking points and the over-the-top guy talk of "Free FM" might work, but finding just the right hosts to hold an audience of varying demographics and political viewpoints might be difficult today.
 
Greater Media's WTKK ("Talk 96.9") in Boston seems to do just fine. They do issues talk and do not have Rush. They do have Imus and a bunch of local hosts, as well as O'Reilly. Not a very strong syndicated lineup yet they seem to do pretty well for themselves. Pittsburgh's WPGB also seems to do pretty well with FM talk and they do carry the Premiere lineup. Both stations outlived the "Free FM" formats that CBS aired in each respective market. That was supposed to be THE format to get young males listening. Wrong.

So, I don't quite agree with you on the demo issue. I wasn't here when WWDB-FM was flipped and can't comment on why that happened. But I can tell you that FM talk has potential and makes it in other markets. This gets interesting here because Greater Media has done this elsewhere and we now have some buzz about the future of 97.5. It could be much ado about nothing, but it's sure fun to speculate.

However, I do agree with you that any issues-based talker here would need to swipe some of the big syndicated shows to make a decent splash. WTKK has Imus, who has been popular in Boston (God only knows why) and gives them a decent start. But, any FM talker here would need a stronger start than Imus. Stealing Rush would be quite a coup. And, with WPHT's proclivity toward preempting his show (today it was Temple b-ball, next week it'll be the Phillies), maybe Premiere would consider changing affiliates here.

By the way, one person's "stale" talk is another's favorite show. The audiences may skew a bit older, but the syndicated offerings of Rush and company do bring in the listeners. Better than Free FM ever did. Free FM had a problem in that most of the younger audience doesn't want talk all day. They want music too.

Now, New Jersey 101.5 is an interesting case when it comes to local talk. It super-serves a state that gets very poor local news coverage and talk on TV and seems to have great personalities. Unfortunately, to me, New Jersey 101.5 is boring because I don't care about what the Freemason of Cornbung Township had to say about a new Shop Right on the Purple Horse Turnpike. Perhaps if you live in Cornbung Township, this interests you, but it's hardly general interest fare unless it concerns you directly. I suppose it goes with the nature of super-serving the audience.

On the other hand, political talk of the sort practiced by Rush, Hannity and Savage is something that does concern a wider audience. And, that sort of talk appeals best to a conservative audience. It's become that group's favored venue. That's why some of these national talkers get such huge audiences - by tapping into that interest. You may not like what they say, but you have to admit that they have the audience. Which is just how I feel about certain politically active music groups.
 
BRNout said:
. And, with WPHT's proclivity toward preempting his show (today it was Temple b-ball, next week it'll be the Phillies), maybe Premiere would consider changing affiliates here.
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I really doubt that's going to happen. BTW WPHT does stream his show on their website while the Phillies are on 1210 AM.
 
The industry is locked into a very narrow brand of talk, i.e. "angry white conservative," stuff. I don't see that changing in Philly anytime soon.
 
Many markets have two or more issues based talkers, including NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Dallas, etc. And, I'm solely limiting my examples to those with multiple so-called "angry white conservative" formats. So it's viable to have more than one in a market. LA and San Francisco actually have 3 each.

By the way Jim, would the counter programming to this format be "happy black liberal" talk? Just asking, because your comment had an intolerant tone, indicating that such stations represent a viewpoint that you clearly dislike.
 
NO! WPHT---DOESN'T NEED A CHALLENGER... THEY ALREADY HAVE MANY CHALLENGERS WHO DON'T MAKE IT. THE ONLY SERIOUS TALKER WHO CHALLENGES WPHT IS NEW JERESY 101.5 WHICH HAS A HUGE LISTENERSHIP IN PHILLY AND IT'S BURBS. 101.5 IS TRULY A GREAT ALTERNATIVE TO THAT TRADITIONAL TALK GARBAGE.
 
BRNout said:
Many markets have two or more issues based talkers, including NY, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Dallas, etc. And, I'm solely limiting my examples to those with multiple so-called "angry white conservative" formats. So it's viable to have more than one in a market. LA and San Francisco actually have 3 each.

By the way Jim, would the counter programming to this format be "happy black liberal" talk? Just asking, because your comment had an intolerant tone, indicating that such stations represent a viewpoint that you clearly dislike.
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The problem is available signals and ownership. Philadelphia essentially has only 6 AM signals strong enough so that real ratings can be had:
560, 610, 950, 990, 1060 and 1210. (Am I missing any? 640, 800, and 860 are all, to some degree or another, gone at night. Is 1340 viable?)

Out of the 5 that are not 1210 (the ones that might be used to challenge 1210), CBS owns 2, Salem owns 2, and Greater Media owns 1. CBS obviously has no interest in competing with 1210, and Salem isn't going to deviate much from its core misson of religious/ conservative talk. That leaves only Greater Media on 950, which has decided, probably rightfully so, that there's more money in competing with WIP than with WPHT.

So, unless the competitor is coming from FM, it's not coming. And I don't think it's coming from FM.
 
The WPHT local talk show hosts needs to stay on a topic for a longer period of time instead of 30 minutes and then switch topics and the station local hosts needs to talk about the local/national news stories that is happening today more often, instead of politics all the time.
 
Sam Lit said:
aindik said:
640, 800, and 860 are all, to some degree or another, gone at night.
Click to expand...

640/WWJZ has a CP for a 25KW 8 tower night pattern from Horsham Township. I think that may qualify as a night presence. And in a rather dramatic degree at that. In all probability it will be a better signal that 1210.
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Interesting. How close is that to being built? Will it have to have a null to the northeast to protect WFAN?

Right now, 640 is owned by Disney, right? The only two things Disney is doing in radio now are Radio Disney and ESPN Radio. If it's going to do something other than that, it's going to have to be sold first.
 
NEWSIEAL said:
NO! WPHT---DOESN'T NEED A CHALLENGER... THEY ALREADY HAVE MANY CHALLENGERS WHO DON'T MAKE IT. THE ONLY SERIOUS TALKER WHO CHALLENGES WPHT IS NEW JERESY 101.5 WHICH HAS A HUGE LISTENERSHIP IN PHILLY AND IT'S BURBS. 101.5 IS TRULY A GREAT ALTERNATIVE TO THAT TRADITIONAL TALK GARBAGE.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if you are a native New Jerseyan (or whatever they're called). They do a real service to NJ residents and a fine job with local issues. If you live in PA however, it's deadly boring talk. I tune in to them only when having to drive through that mess on my way somewhere else. Their traffic reports every 15 minutes are great!

Who says WPHT doesn't "need" a challenger? Basically CBS Radio would say that because they'd prefer than WPHT had a monopoly in its format. It's certainly not for one of us to say whether they "need one" - that's up to the marketplace to decide. But, if they had one, I'd wager that WPHT would be a better station as a result of it. Right now, the market misses out on quite a few big shows that other top 10 markets do have. And the Phillies (who should be on WIP) will only make matters worse.

The REAL question is whether the market can support one. Mr. Indik's analysis of available frequencies makes a good point against that. However, I must remind everyone that other big markets have sustained 2 such talkers over the long term - including one on FM. So, it could happen.
 
640/WWJZ has a CP for a 25KW 8 tower night pattern from Horsham Township
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Their transmitter used to be located on North Pemberton Rd. in Burlington County. I think it still is. I know when they signed on in 1993 at 50 kw, Imus on 660 was unlistenable in any direction for at least 15 miles.

Didn't know they were moving but what a waste of a great signal.
 
Why not just flip PHT to another sports format? Listen, once the Phillies kick in to a regular schedule, I'll need my own scorecard to figure out when I can hear talk radio in the afternoon, weekend or at night.
 
Looking at the FCC website, just the 50 kW D and 950 watt N authorizations are listed. They DID have a CP to move to Horsham Twp., with 50 kW-D/25 kW-N. Sam Lit was right in that it would have needed 8 towers to do. Disney probably withdrew it...
 
Guys I never do this but, great topic and enjoyable reading for a former brokered host who really wanted to give you something to listen to but now I moved to the internet where I can curse and do anything I feel like 24/7 free of charge . Happy Easter folks
 
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