maybe im just getting old, but can anyone explain the 2012 winter numbers to me? todays radio-info ratings have entercom stations krz,froggy, and wilk in the top 3 slots, with pretty good numbers, and cumulus stations, magic jr93.7 the x warm and the rest with zippo numbers. please explain..
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winter 20 12 ratings
- Thread starter cowboy72
- Start date
Starting with this book, Arbitron is no longer listing non-subscribers in what it releases publicly. Hence, all the blanks. So, if you don't buy the book, you get a "--" no matter what the real number is. Subscribers get numbers with all the blanks filled in, but no one else does. So Magic, for example, may have actually pulled an 8.9, but unless you subscribe, you'll never know that. It's the latest move by Arbitron to protect their copyrighted material. But it does sort of make these numbers valueless.
L.A. Tarone said:
Arbitron needs to be careful about pissing subscribers off. Smaller market stations cannot afford the book every month but can afford it annually. I know..."you buy it, you see it" This new attitude adds more confusion and more misleading of numbers than ever before. This does make great opportunity for another media survey company to come along and put pressure on Arbitron. I heard a couple of years ago that Nielsen was going to branch out into rating radio. Did that ever happen? Nevertheless, there were others in the past that did fairly well being an alternative to Arbitron like The Birch Report. Maybe this may lead to a good thing!
lol, I used to hear stories that the folks at WILK/TLQ favored Birch because they did better in its surveys. Speaking of alternatives to Arbitron there is Eastlan:
http://www.eastlanratings.com/Market-List/default.aspx
They have quite a few markets but unfortunately WB/Scr isn't one of them (yet).
http://www.eastlanratings.com/Market-List/default.aspx
They have quite a few markets but unfortunately WB/Scr isn't one of them (yet).
I don’t know what Arbitron costs now. But back in the mid ‘90s, I worked for 4-M Broadcasting, which owned the original The Mountain, WZMT-FM; WKAB-FM; and WAZL-AM. I was the PD at ‘AZL, and flipped it from Full Service AC to N/T. I got one of the books 4-M bought. I forget exactly how much it cost, but it was in the vicinity of something like $10,000 per quarter!! And this is ’93, ’94. Very few stations can afford that, and even if you can, you have to ask whether it’s a worthwhile expenditure. You can sell without a ratings book and there would seem to be better uses for $40,000. Trixter is right, the new attitude does create confusion and meaningless numbers. But John Mainielli, who programmed WABC in the ‘80s and ‘90s, and made it talk powerhouse, made another point on the NYRMB. Since these subscriber-only numbers don’t mean anything to anybody, they won’t get any coverage – and a chance to get people talking about radio is lost. It has been that when the 12-plus numbers came out, they’d get some press coverage. The New York and Philly papers would write about them. Around here, Sue Henry used to write about them when she was at the CV, then when she left, her successor picked it up. I did the same thing at the Standard-Speaker in the late ‘90s and ealr ‘00s. Now, who will give any coverage to ratings that include five or six stations in a market with 30 stations? A chance to get people talking about radio is missed. And I think Mainielli has a great point.
Eastlan does about 90 markets now, but wants to grow. If you check its website, you’ll see how it proudly states it will continue to post numbers for ALL stations in all markets it surveys, and it takes several direct shots at Arbitron. Hopefully, that firm will grow. I don’t know what it costs, but it states it’s tens of thousands less.
I was just getting into the business when Birch was used around here. But I knew several radio programmers who swore by Birch and said it was more accurate than Arbitron, even though it used fewer diaries (Arbitron used to use about 1,500 diaries; Birch around 700). They all pointed out “the swing,” and those of us around for a long time know what I mean. You’d look at one Arb book and see all the W-B stations did well, so you know a lot of diaries were distributed in the Wyoming Valley. Then next book, you’d see VCD, AZL and QEQ come way up, so you know there were a lot of diaries around Hazleton. Then, another book, all the Scranton stations came up and you knew why. That apparently didn’t happen with Birch; its distribution was much more “even,” for lack of a better term. But the agencies only wanted Arbitron numbers, so Birch couldn’t hang on. It’ll be interesting to see whether Eastland faces the same thing.
Sorry, a little long winded this time.
Eastlan does about 90 markets now, but wants to grow. If you check its website, you’ll see how it proudly states it will continue to post numbers for ALL stations in all markets it surveys, and it takes several direct shots at Arbitron. Hopefully, that firm will grow. I don’t know what it costs, but it states it’s tens of thousands less.
I was just getting into the business when Birch was used around here. But I knew several radio programmers who swore by Birch and said it was more accurate than Arbitron, even though it used fewer diaries (Arbitron used to use about 1,500 diaries; Birch around 700). They all pointed out “the swing,” and those of us around for a long time know what I mean. You’d look at one Arb book and see all the W-B stations did well, so you know a lot of diaries were distributed in the Wyoming Valley. Then next book, you’d see VCD, AZL and QEQ come way up, so you know there were a lot of diaries around Hazleton. Then, another book, all the Scranton stations came up and you knew why. That apparently didn’t happen with Birch; its distribution was much more “even,” for lack of a better term. But the agencies only wanted Arbitron numbers, so Birch couldn’t hang on. It’ll be interesting to see whether Eastland faces the same thing.
Sorry, a little long winded this time.
OMG I nearly choked on my coffee about the Birch ILK/Q102 comment
Yes, they were obssessed with it:
1) It was cheaper than Arbs
2) Though the sample was smaller, Birch did phone surveys which connected better with the younger audience who didn't respond well to diaries(eg men 18-34)
3) Phone surveys had less "shuffling" of the numbers like when a customer fills out a written survey. Less time to think. (I always listen to so-and-so so I musta listened all week to them)
4) Also, like ppms, it showed hard and true Arbitron rules (top of the hour is sacred...et al) didn't matter. People didn't listen to the radio based on a 15 minute clock.
At least that's what the told me.
If you can't beat them, buy them
Arbitron bought the Birch.
Yes, they were obssessed with it:
1) It was cheaper than Arbs
2) Though the sample was smaller, Birch did phone surveys which connected better with the younger audience who didn't respond well to diaries(eg men 18-34)
3) Phone surveys had less "shuffling" of the numbers like when a customer fills out a written survey. Less time to think. (I always listen to so-and-so so I musta listened all week to them)
4) Also, like ppms, it showed hard and true Arbitron rules (top of the hour is sacred...et al) didn't matter. People didn't listen to the radio based on a 15 minute clock.
At least that's what the told me.
If you can't beat them, buy them
Arbitron bought the Birch.
waunderlust said:
Yes, Birch reached out with phones to the younger crowd. The station I was working for at the time tried out Birch and management was extremely pleased with the results. They told Arbitron to take a hike. I think if Birch was still around, the internet would play a big part. Arbitron cannot continue to buy companies that they believe are threats. That is not really a long term solution. Arbitron's position now is to be greedy. This position will come back and haunt them. They have opened a can of worms with this decision. Watch and see what emerges with this action.
What's likely to happen here on this forum (and on other venues where radio and ratings have been discussed for over a decade) is a further dwindling of the farm system.
All of us have radio in our DNA, and the enthusiasm of many posters through the years has been scrutinized by those in management. To put it another way, we've been doing a lot of their basic R&D work. Many of us spend quite a bit of leisure time here throwing out suggestions -- radio programming suggestions -- and we're not getting paid for our input either. To me that's the same as having our copyright infringed. (For example, years of input regarding HD radio alone has GOT to've been valuable at times to management).
So Arbitron effectively winds up BACK at the crossroads, whether they realize it or not. Their decision certainly rewards those who subscribe. But the decision also obviates punctual discussion about ratings -- discussion from radio industry professionals who are experienced in local conditions, unlike the notions of idea people who live in San Antonio or Atlanta.
It would be glib, reactionary and probably awkward to suggest that Radio-Info and the NYRMB charge for a password or access for industry buzz that ownership is now getting for free. But a lobby or boycott somewhat along those lines ..... ('not so fast, buddy') ..... might provide a genuine clue about where the suits and wingtips honestly stand regarding the farm system they've been having a lot of problems cultivating over the past decade. Posting and commenting is a hobby for a lot of us, sure ; the point is, we're not doing this for our health either. Arbitron doubtless is 'losing some revenue' by offering the entire (and honest) beauty pageant figures. But that loss has been going on for DECADES. Is it suddenly worth it for them, now, and why so, to react by silencing a good deal of free analysis?
Side note : That Eastlan service was outspoken about this extortion boycott. But most of their survey areas are in the Pacific Northwest.
All of us have radio in our DNA, and the enthusiasm of many posters through the years has been scrutinized by those in management. To put it another way, we've been doing a lot of their basic R&D work. Many of us spend quite a bit of leisure time here throwing out suggestions -- radio programming suggestions -- and we're not getting paid for our input either. To me that's the same as having our copyright infringed. (For example, years of input regarding HD radio alone has GOT to've been valuable at times to management).
So Arbitron effectively winds up BACK at the crossroads, whether they realize it or not. Their decision certainly rewards those who subscribe. But the decision also obviates punctual discussion about ratings -- discussion from radio industry professionals who are experienced in local conditions, unlike the notions of idea people who live in San Antonio or Atlanta.
It would be glib, reactionary and probably awkward to suggest that Radio-Info and the NYRMB charge for a password or access for industry buzz that ownership is now getting for free. But a lobby or boycott somewhat along those lines ..... ('not so fast, buddy') ..... might provide a genuine clue about where the suits and wingtips honestly stand regarding the farm system they've been having a lot of problems cultivating over the past decade. Posting and commenting is a hobby for a lot of us, sure ; the point is, we're not doing this for our health either. Arbitron doubtless is 'losing some revenue' by offering the entire (and honest) beauty pageant figures. But that loss has been going on for DECADES. Is it suddenly worth it for them, now, and why so, to react by silencing a good deal of free analysis?
Side note : That Eastlan service was outspoken about this extortion boycott. But most of their survey areas are in the Pacific Northwest.
Eastlan surveys Utica/Rome and Syracuse which you can see on CNYRadio.com and it would be nice to see an alternative in W-B/Scr.
Yes, Arbitron is at a crossroads; with more people listening via Wi-Fi, smartphone, internet, etc it means there are other ways of measuring audience that, at present, don't give as much information, but give it some time and I think Arbitron will go by the wayside.
As the numbers now embargoed and those listed are for 6+ only it doesn't seem to make sense to hide non-subscribers numbers as selling on 6+ doesn't make much sense: anyone remember when the old WNAK had huge 12+ numbers? Try using those to sell to a potential advertiser: how about pitching the station to a dating site, carbon dating that is, lol.
Yes, Arbitron is at a crossroads; with more people listening via Wi-Fi, smartphone, internet, etc it means there are other ways of measuring audience that, at present, don't give as much information, but give it some time and I think Arbitron will go by the wayside.
As the numbers now embargoed and those listed are for 6+ only it doesn't seem to make sense to hide non-subscribers numbers as selling on 6+ doesn't make much sense: anyone remember when the old WNAK had huge 12+ numbers? Try using those to sell to a potential advertiser: how about pitching the station to a dating site, carbon dating that is, lol.
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