WKLB to WBZ Tower?

[wcozBoston]

FCC records show that WKLB has an auxiliary license to broadcast from the WBZ tower in Needham. Does anyone know if this site is in use or will be in use in the near future?

 

[chrish]

Talked with Paul Shullins last week, he said it is already on the air as the main.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Talked with Paul Shullins last week, he said it is already on the air as the main.

Are there any other FMs on the WBZ-TV tower? (I'm talking about now; not in bygone years.) I know that WGBH-FM wanted to move there a few years back but after it appeared that a resolution had been worked out with third-adjacent WZBC, the deal collapsed. It may have been the FCC and not WZBC that killed the WGBH move.

But what are the specs (ERP, HAAT) for WKLB? Did WKLB move to the space on the tower that WGBH-FM was going to occupy? And is the WKLB antenna ready to accept other FMs? If so, CBS may be angling to lure them over from FM 128. From FM 128, WKLB had been running marginally less power than the other stations on the master antenna. Someone who posts here frequently but is not very technical keeps insisting that the first-adjacent Class A in Truro is what limits WKLB's power. I've never been convinced that the guy who keeps posting that knows the facts. But if he is correct, isn't the WBZ-TV tower, which is on the west side of Route 128, a few tenths of a mile further from Truro than is the FM 128 tower, which is east of Route 128? If so, that slight increase in distance might be all it takes to get WKLB back up to the Class B maximums. I guess that, as long as WKLB calls the WBZ-TV site an auxiliary, it can't cover any area outside the contours of the main site. But once the new site is classified as the main, a slight power increase might be permitted.

 

[johnster]

I think it's what they are doing with HD that is more interesting. http://www.rbr.com/radio/12205.html

 

[w9wi]

Talked with Paul Shullins last week, he said it is already on the air as the main.

On the WBZ tower? Looking in the FCC DB, I don't see where they have authority to operate a main from the WBZ-TV tower. They're licensed on the adjacent FM tower. (I guess that's the one you call "FM128"?)

Are there any other FMs on the WBZ-TV tower? (I'm talking about now; not in bygone years.) I know that WGBH-FM wanted to move there a few years back but after it appeared that a resolution had been worked out with third-adjacent WZBC, the deal collapsed. It may have been the FCC and not WZBC that killed the WGBH move.

All I'm finding in the FCC DB are WKLB's aux and WGBH's application.

But what are the specs (ERP, HAAT) for WKLB?

12kw/276m for the aux on the TV tower. WGBH's application was for 21kw/323m so no, there's about a 200-foot difference.

I guess that, as long as WKLB calls the WBZ-TV site an auxiliary, it can't cover any area outside the contours of the main site. But once the new site is classified as the main, a slight power increase might be permitted.

That's certainly my understanding of the rules -- but the way I'm reading it, WKLB doesn't have anything on file to make the WBZ-TV site the main.

 

[DanStrassberg]

But what are the specs (ERP, HAAT) for WKLB?

12kw/276m for the aux on the TV tower. WGBH's application was for 21kw/323m so no, there's about a 200-foot difference.

By my calculation, 154' and change. The electrical center of WKLB's aux antenna is at only ~905' AAT, which, percentage-wise is not all that much higher than the antennas on the Pru (780', IIRC). I know that the curves of allowable power vs HAAT often depart from the theoretical P2/P1 = (H1/H2)^2, but if the formula holds and my calculation is correct, a full Class B FM at 276m should be allowed an ERP of 14.77 kW (based on 50 kW at 150m), whereas WKLB's aux is running just 12 kW. That's not a huge power difference but it's a little more than insignificant.

 

[aaronread]

I know that WGBH-FM wanted to move there a few years back but after it appeared that a resolution had been worked out with third-adjacent WZBC, the deal collapsed. It may have been the FCC and not WZBC that killed the WGBH move.

It wasn't WZBC...it was the FCC. WGBH's argument hinged on a common-sense approach to third-adjacent interference that was logical but didn't meet the rules as they were written. The FCC no doubt didn't want to open that can of worms by setting a bad precedent; not when LPFM's third-adjacent protections were being so hotly debated.

It was a shame; for WZBC it would've meant just one zone of third-adjacent interference instead of two (WBUR in Needham and WGBH at Blue Hill/Milton). And for WGBH it would've meant a significant better signal, especially penetration into downtown Boston.

And it would've been good for WRBB, too. I always thought that WGBH moving to Needham could've meant that they could sell W242AA to Northeastern, and WRBB could shut it down and move from 104.9 to 96.3, and WBOQ would've paid for the costs. Would've been a much better signal for both WRBB and WBOQ.

 

[w9wi]

By my calculation, 154' and change. The electrical center of WKLB's aux antenna is at only ~905' AAT, which, percentage-wise is not all that much higher than the antennas on the Pru (780', IIRC). I know that the curves of allowable power vs HAAT often depart from the theoretical P2/P1 = (H1/H2)^2, but if the formula holds and my calculation is correct, a full Class B FM at 276m should be allowed an ERP of 14.77 kW (based on 50 kW at 150m), whereas WKLB's aux is running just 12 kW. That's not a huge power difference but it's a little more than insignificant.

15kw per the FCC's online "FMPower" program. However, the same program specifies 8.8kW for their main, which is actually licensed for 8.1 kW. So part of the aux power reduction is because the main isn't quite at full power. Not all of it though. 12kw is 80% of 15kw, but 8.1kw is 92% of 8.8kw.

I might guess the power reduction on the main is indeed because of a short-spacing. I wonder if Concord, NH is the real culprit? Haven't done the math.

(yep, upon refiguring I get the same 154' figure. Blew the subtraction the first time!)

 

[Eli Polonsky]

(WBUR in Needham and WGBH at Blue Hill/Milton).

WBUR is on FM-128, which is actually in Newton, very close to the Needham line.

And it would've been good for WRBB, too. I always thought that WGBH moving to Needham could've meant that they could sell W242AA to Northeastern, and WRBB could shut it down and move from 104.9 to 96.3, and WBOQ would've paid for the costs. Would've been a much better signal for both WRBB and WBOQ.

I can think of a number of possible obstacles that, if this were to have happened, would have made it difficult for it to work to WRBB's advantage. First of all, the 5 watts directional toward Beacon Hill currently broadcast by W242AA would be inadequate for WRBB. Due to the pattern and low wattage, W242AA is a weak signal at Northeastern, where WRBB is based.

An application for higher power and/or augmented pattern for Northeastern on 96.3 may not be feasible because WGBH had to get special permission from third-adjacent 96.9 (then WCDJ) just to run their current low power directional repeater. WRBB would have to seek new permission from 96.9 (now WTKK) for any sort of power increase, even a minor one, and/or any pattern change.

Also, I'd imagine that WRBB applying for any more power on 96.3 than W242AA ran, even if just enough to provide a strong signal to Northeastern, would be treated as if it were a new station/new facility application by the FCC. That would mean that they would have to apply as a Class A (100+ watts), since new Class D applications are no longer accepted, and it's deemed that there's no room for LPFM's in the Boston metro. They would not be allowed to just simply move their current 19 watts at 104.9 at Northeastern to 96.3 in Cambridge.

If WGBH had to get special permission from 96.9 just to run 5 watts directional at 96.3, I'd imagine that 96.9 would not permit a new Class A on 96.3 at all.

Also, would WBOQ pay for the costs of moving WRBB? WBOQ seems to be a somewhat modest operation, working with a small staff. There are only two live, local on-air hosts, and one of them is the PD. Even without WRBB on the air, WBOQ's signal is marginal in Boston south of the Tobin Bridge. I doubt it would prove good enough to attract enough advertisers in the area to make it worth the cost of moving WRBB.

 

[aaronread]

I can think of a number of possible obstacles that, if this were to have happened, would have made it difficult for it to work to WRBB's advantage. First of all, the 5 watts directional toward Beacon Hill currently broadcast by W242AA would be inadequate for WRBB. Due to the pattern and low wattage, W242AA is a weak signal at Northeastern, where WRBB is based.

Any WRBB signal would be based at their existing tower on campus.

An application for higher power and/or augmented pattern for Northeastern on 96.3 may not be feasible because WGBH had to get special permission from third-adjacent 96.9 (then WCDJ) just to run their current low power directional repeater. WRBB would have to seek new permission from 96.9 (now WTKK) for any sort of power increase, even a minor one, and/or any pattern change.

Also, I'd imagine that WRBB applying for any more power on 96.3 than W242AA ran, even if just enough to provide a strong signal to Northeastern, would be treated as if it were a new station/new facility application by the FCC. That would mean that they would have to apply as a Class A (100+ watts), since new Class D applications are no longer accepted, and it's deemed that there's no room for LPFM's in the Boston metro. They would not be allowed to just simply move their current 19 watts at 104.9 at Northeastern to 96.3 in Cambridge

The rules are both literally and figuratively different for grandfathered Class D stations. In this case, don't think of it as WRBB taking over W242AA. Think of it was W242AA disappearing entirely and WRBB moving to 96.3. The FCC historically gives wide latitude to granting major changes for grandfathered Class D FM's trying to get to a better signal, especially when the current signal is subject to significant interference - which WRBB certainly is (from WBOQ...it's permitted interference, but interference nevertheless).

I'm not sure WRBB could maintain their existing 17 watts; grandfathered Class D's are limited to 10 watts TPO (not ERP) and whatever ERP they can eek out of their antenna arrays...BUT, they're still contour-limited, too. So they might have to run less than 10 watts TPO to lower the ERP to whatever would be needed. OTOH, they could just as easily do 10 full watts TPO, depends on a lot of things - read on...

There's also an unwritten "rule" about grandfathered Class D FM's and the zone of interference not extending past the campus boundaries. Now obviously in Northeastern's case, that's a flexible concept since they have an urban campus. But WTKK is owned by Greater Media, which is a local company (never hurts), it could easily be documented that the zone of interference to WTKK from any WRBB on 96.3 would be measured in feet, not even yards. WTKK is right on the Pru and its blanketing interference probably covers the NEU campus. So if WRBB "asked nicely", WTKK would probably write a letter of support, which is all the FCC is looking for.

It also helps that locally there is precedent: grandfathered Class D FM WBRS 100.1 camps on the third-adjacents of both WCRB 99.5 and WZLX 100.7 and doesn't really cause to, or receive interference from, either of them.

And a big part of the reason why W242AA has that tight DA pattern is to prevent 1st adjacent interference to/from WSRS out of Worcester...whose 54dBu interfering contour reaches as far as Brookline. That's not a problem for a grandfathered Class D FM; they don't worry about receiving interference, only causing it, which WRBB could never do b/c WSRS's 60dBu protected contour is much further west.

Also, would WBOQ pay for the costs of moving WRBB? WBOQ seems to be a somewhat modest operation, working with a small staff. There are only two live, local on-air hosts, and one of them is the PD. Even without WRBB on the air, WBOQ's signal is marginal in Boston south of the Tobin Bridge. I doubt it would prove good enough to attract enough advertisers in the area to make it worth the cost of moving WRBB.

Well, when I originally thought of this was back in 2004-05 when the economy looked a lot better, and WBOQ was finding the money to air Red Sox games. One would think there'd be real value in having the Sox on an FM signal that reaches most of downtown Boston (in the car...indoors is another matter) whenever WRBB is off the air. Plus at the time WCRB was still on 102.5 and WBOQ was more-or-less in competition with them, but WCRB had the staunch edge because WRBB blocked any reception of WBOQ south of Revere. And to be blunt, this wasn't a very expensive proposition. Just some money for a new exciter (say, $3000?) and MAYBE a new antenna ($15k or so) and some other related gear. We're talking $25k-$40k at most, which is chump change for WBOQ to get a "free expansion" into downtown Boston.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Think of it was W242AA disappearing entirely and WRBB moving to 96.3.

OK, now I understand what you proposed. Well, I'm sure that WMBR would prefer that not happen. They get $100/month tower space rental from WGBH for W242AA.

Also, in this theoretical scenario where WGBH 89.7 would have moved to the CBS TV tower in Needham, would that signal have been good enough on Beacon Hill to satisfy whatever listener(s) complained to WGBH about multipath, etc.., causing them to put W242AA on the air? (I assume it must've been some big bucks contributor who wanted their "own" WGBH signal in the area).

I know that the stations on FM-128 do not necessarily come in very well on the "wrong" side of Beacon Hill. I also remember that a friend who lived on the "wrong" side of the hill could not get any of the Boston TV stations transmitting from the 128 area with watchable reception over the air. They all came in as a million "ghosts". Even 68 transmitting from the Pru was all "ghosts". However, Channels 9 and 11 from NH, and for some reason, 64 from RI, were crisp and clear.

 

[BRNout]

Good reception of 9 and 11 from NH would have to do with the nice line of sight that folks on Beacon Hill have to the north/northwest (across the River Charles) - and buildings to the south blocking any potential interlopers from causing interference. However, clear reception of 64 (from Rehoboth) is a stumper!

Must be some sort of odd ducting between the hills/buildings that only works at a certain compass point. However, you would think that clear reception of 64 would also imply clear reception of 10, 12, 28 and 36 - all of which come from the same area.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

Good reception of 9 and 11 from NH would have to do with the nice line of sight that folks on Beacon Hill have to the north/northwest (across the River Charles) - and buildings to the south blocking any potential interlopers from causing interference. However, clear reception of 64 (from Rehoboth) is a stumper!

Must be some sort of odd ducting between the hills/buildings that only works at a certain compass point. However, you would think that clear reception of 64 would also imply clear reception of 10, 12, 28 and 36 - all of which come from the same area.

It didn't make much sense. 10 and 12 were weak and ghosty, but 64 had a perfect picture. 36 was very weak. 28 did not exist yet. This was back in the mid-1980s.

 

[Laurence Glavin]

Getting back to the subject line: I was driving by the Cedar Street, Needham tower yesterday (Saturday 01/31), so I pulled off Route 128 and hung a right at Muzi Autos to observe that there's a new antenna on that tower, just above where it narrows down, but below the TVs there. I believe it belongs to WKLB-FM.

 

[aaronread]

OK, now I understand what you proposed. Well, I'm sure that WMBR would prefer that not happen. They get $100/month tower space rental from WGBH for W242AA.

I didn't know that...well, it'd be a shame for WMBR, true. Although hardly a deathblow...historically I don't think WMBR would have TOO much trouble making an extra $1200/yr in fundraising. Certainly they shouldn't have too much trouble doing so. (shrugs)

And, admittedly, just because WGBH probably wouldn't need W242AA if they moved to Needham/Newton...doesn't mean they would just give it up. Even a few years ago when revenues weren't in the toliet. Northeastern would still probably need some cash to pry it loose from WGBH...although at the time I posited that WBOQ would provide the bulk of that cash. Again, it probably wouldn't take much...virtually everyone in public radio has a soft spot for grandfathered Class D college radio...and perhaps a five-figure "donation" to Northeastern (which would be routed to WGBH) to get a 104.9 signal that suddenly reaches into downtown Boston seemed like a bargain to me.

On a similar note, I often thought WFNX's old translator on 101.3FM would be a good frequency for WZLY...who's stuck on 91.5 (a terrible frequency in the Wellesley area...thanks to WUML, WMLN and WDJM, not to mention WBUR). Unfortunately WFNX's new 60dBu from OFC is juuuust big enough that it encompasses the Wellesley area, so WZLY can't move to 101.3 without waivers being granted. Pity.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

OK, now I understand what you proposed. Well, I'm sure that WMBR would prefer that not happen. They get $100/month tower space rental from WGBH for W242AA.

I didn't know that...well, it'd be a shame for WMBR, true. Although hardly a deathblow...historically I don't think WMBR would have TOO much trouble making an extra $1200/yr in fundraising. Certainly they shouldn't have too much trouble doing so. (shrugs)

Honestly, I know they could live without that amount and not miss it, but I'm sure they'd rather continue to get it. I know they would not bother to do any extra fundraising beyond their one annual week to make that amount up if it went away, though. They're not in dire straits because they're all-volunteer, and they spend relatively little in comparison to many other college stations, even much smaller ones.

Unlike most college stations, they practically never utilize any paid technical help. From what I've seen over the years at the station, MIT students/alumni NEVER go "out of house" to deal with technical issues as a matter of pride. If it can't be done with their own hands (or at least within MIT), they would rather have it not happen at all than to consult with mere mortals from outside. I think the only time civilians are ever called in is when they need them to climb the tower.

For example, their internet connection from MIT went down over a week ago. It had become increasingly intermittent in recent years, and it finally gave up the ghost. Their online streaming is down, and there's no internet access or email inside the station. They're waiting for MIT IT services to eventually respond to their request for a new data line when they feel like getting around to it. I suggested to consider using some of their fundraising money that they're sitting on to pay an outside provider for temporary or backup internet service until whenever MIT deals with the problem (and in the future), especially since a significant percentage of our fundraising supporters are out of town or at-work stream listeners who can no longer hear us. Their silence was as deafening as their silent web streams.

And, admittedly, just because WGBH probably wouldn't need W242AA if they moved to Needham/Newton...doesn't mean they would just give it up. Even a few years ago when revenues weren't in the toliet. Northeastern would still probably need some cash to pry it loose from WGBH...although at the time I posited that WBOQ would provide the bulk of that cash. Again, it probably wouldn't take much...virtually everyone in public radio has a soft spot for grandfathered Class D college radio...and perhaps a five-figure "donation" to Northeastern (which would be routed to WGBH) to get a 104.9 signal that suddenly reaches into downtown Boston seemed like a bargain to me.

WBOQ's signal is really not all that good in Boston proper even when WRBB is currently off the air. It gets battered around badly by intermod from the Pru on many radios, and it tends to fade in spots in the car. I know it comes in fairly well again in some areas even farther south and west away from the Boston interference, but the real question would be whether the WBOQ signal would be good enough around Boston to attract city sponsors to advertise on it, and make it a worthwhile return for their investment to Northeastern. I say probably no.

On a similar note, I often thought WFNX's old translator on 101.3FM would be a good frequency for WZLY...who's stuck on 91.5 (a terrible frequency in the Wellesley area...thanks to WUML, WMLN and WDJM, not to mention WBUR). Unfortunately WFNX's new 60dBu from OFC is juuuust big enough that it encompasses the Wellesley area, so WZLY can't move to 101.3 without waivers being granted. Pity.

I don't know how well WZLY would do if it could go on 101.3. Although it may not be within the protected contour from Providence, WWBB 101.5 gets fairly strong to the west of 128, and would probably give it some splatter outside of campus. WGIR-FM 101.1 Manchester, NH could give them some adjacent noise there too.