WKNR 2 Weeks After 92.3 The Fan Debuted

[Cocaine]

I'm going to be painfully honest - since 92.3 went all sports the dial has been locked. I can say in all good conscience WKNR hasn't even been a thought as an option to listen to for sports talk in either of my cars.

Most people listened to KNR because there was nothing else on air. KNR actually has some nice pieces - Rizzo (sans the wanna-bes), Roda and Brinda (yeah Brinda).

To be brutally honest with you - KNR could never pull off the Thome/Indians ticket giveaway 92.3 is doing - why? Because the tickets had to be purchased. 92.3/CBS has a budget - a monster budget. They will not fail nor will they flip formats.

They will get play-by-play as soon as current contracts expire. Browns, Indians, Cavs, OSU - they all want to be on an FM signal. 92.3 will continue to grow and KNR is going to shrivel up.

Will KNR die? My best guess is probably not but they will be further reduced to irrelevency in the coming months. There is no question about it.

Not to say that 92.3 doesn't have some issues - they do - for starters Kiley & Booms - just garbage.

Baskin/Phelps have a lot of upside and they are nowhere near a finished product.

Bull/Fox may be the best sports talk show this city has had on the air in the last 15 years - honestly. They are that good and I am sure they will continue to improve.

Ken Carmen is nice.

Hearing Daryl Ruiter and Matt Loede calling in reports makes my ears bleed. Mercifully they are only on for a minute here or there.

Whatever weekend programming is on 92.3 is just filler in my estimation and will eventually be replaced. All in due time. If there was anything of real merit on the weekends they would be given more opportunity M - F rather than some shows doing 5 hour shifts M - F. Think about it.

No matter how hard KNR tries to re-image themselves or let callers actually talk it's too much, too little, too late. They had the market all to themselves, got lazy, got cheap, got cocky and now they are getting passed.

 

[DToTheJ]

...Kiley & Booms - just garbage...

But it's garbage that has a household name. Bull... he's already there - a household name, that is. :

 

[Ron Lee]

No matter how hard KNR tries to re-image themselves or let callers actually talk it's too much, too little, too late. They had the market all to themselves, got lazy, got cheap, got cocky and now they are getting passed.

This is the bottom line. WKNR had thier chance and they blew it.

 

[MikeStandardsFromIndiana]

They will get play-by-play as soon as current contracts expire. Browns, Indians, Cavs, OSU - they all want to be on an FM signal. 92.3 will continue to grow and KNR is going to shrivel up.

The Browns already have an FM home on WMMS, and why would the Indians Give up coverage in 38 states at Night on WTAM for maybe 28 counties at Night on 92.3. Id Rather take the WTAM Signal as my Flagship station and maybe reach some deal with CC to put some games on WMMS on occasion outside of times when Indians/Cavs go head to head on WTAM one of them gets bounced to WMMS. I dont see Indians and Cavs Giving up the Coverage of WTAM for the Signal coverage of 92.3.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

That doesn't matter, Mike.

Teams are not looking at signal coverage of 1100 vs. 92.3. They're looking at cash.

The Indians have a rather extensive radio network that covers nearly all of the team's populated territory. They are heard, every game, on radio stations that ring the Cleveland metro and provide perfect coverage to nearly all of populated Northeast Ohio and a large chunk of the state:

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/cle/schedule/radio_affiliates.jsp

MLB is promoting its streaming site and smart phone apps more than anything.

Being on a 50KW AM flagship isn't what it used to be, though the St. Louis Cardinals returned to KMOX/1120 this season. But their now-former flagship, KTRS/550, had more severe in-market coverage issues than 92.3 has - and the similar areas for 92.3 here are more than served by the surrounding affiliates, where in St. Louis, they had to cobble together a deal with an extreme western rimshot FM station that wasn't previously carrying the team.

 

[KeithE4]

The Browns already have an FM home on WMMS, and why would the Indians Give up coverage in 38 states at Night on WTAM for maybe 28 counties at Night on 92.3.

Because:

(1) WTAM doesn't cover 38 states at night anymore, assuming it ever did. That's long gone. It probably covers about 20 nowadays, but the only states that matter to the Indians are Ohio and maybe western Pennsylvania - where their fan base is. Those 28 counties in NE Ohio are where Cleveland stations get their audience and earn their money. They don't make one thin dime from listeners in, say, Chicago, even though WTAM comes in well there.

(2) Indians fans outside of metro Cleveland (and even those that are there - there are no blackouts on audio feeds) can pony up $15 a season for MLB Gameday Audio or can listen for free if they have SiriusXM. Better audio quality, no fading, no hiss - just like FM (hint, hint)!

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

It probably covers about 20 nowadays, but the only states that matter to the Indians are Ohio and maybe western Pennsylvania - where their fan base is.

Erie PA even has an affiliate - WRIE/1260 "The Score".

People in the rest of Western PA have no trouble picking up WKBN/570 Youngstown.

If 1100 were replaced by 92.3, who (in the Indians marketing territory) wouldn't be able to hear the games anymore? I suspect no one:

WEST: Lorain County is more than covered by WEOL/930, and those further west can get WLEC/1450 Sandusky, WLKR/95.3 Norwalk (and even WSPD/1370 Toledo!).

SOUTHWEST: Wooster's WQKT/104.5 blankets that area very well, and even gets into Summit and Stark Counties, and further southwest, there's WMAN/1400 Mansfield and WQEL/92.7 Bucyrus.

SOUTH: WAKR/1590 Akron and WHBC/1480 Canton are long-time, solid Indians affiliates. 92.3 is also heard pretty well north of downtown Akron, and as mentioned, 104.5 is an option in much of this area as well.

SOUTHEAST: WKBN/570 covers nearly all of this area.

EAST/NORTHEAST: WFUN/970 Ashtabula's signal dovetails quite nicely with whereever 92.3's signal dies out. WABQ/1460 Painesville is on the Indians list, but I'm pretty sure Gary Richards isn't carrying them.

These stations are established, carrying Indians games for decades in most cases. It's not a stopgap like the St. Louis situation.

 

[HHH]

Yes, the Indians could easily go to 92.3 without anyone in the region not being able to hear the games because there are so many affiliates in Akron, Canton, Lorain, Sandusky, Ashtabula, Norwalk, Youngstown, you name it. It would be a plus because the sound quality would be so much better. On a personal note, I could hear the games in my garage without having to turn off the fluorescent light which makes a big loud buzz over WTAM on AM. Not to mention a local thunderstorm making AM static crashes when I am trying to hear an away game.

This business of WTAM's big nighttime signal is pure hobby stuff for older geeks. First of all, as was pointed out, 1100 now has other stations on frequency at night and there is more interference from computers and overhead lines than ever before for AM. Trying to get WTAM outside of Cleveland at night these days is a crapshoot......some nights fine, some nights not even there. This is no selling point anymore. It is all going to FM and the internet. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Tim]

Maybe back in the 1940's or 1950's 50,000-watt AM stations on frequencies where they were the ONLY radio station in the US....maybe then, at one time or another..many different listeners would report hearing the station in 38 states. (Usually radio hobbyists with special antennas).

But, like somebody commented above...there is no way 95% of AM stations cover more than 750 to 1000 miles in all directions....assuming it's a fairly clear frequency...and that's at night only.

For years I've heard WWWE and WTAM announcers say: "they're listening in 38 states and half of Canada"...even saying it in the daytime. That is 100% UNTRUE for ANY AM station (FMs cover even less...usually up to about a 70-mile radius of their transmitter...and FM coverage is the same 24/7...it doesn't increase at night).

I don't think the folks on WWWE & WTAM have been saying the 38 states & half of Canada thing because they're trying to lie...they probably just don't know any better.

Trivisano says that "38 states & half of Canada" frequently...and I just chuckle.

(FYI: A certain daytime veteran northeastern Ohio talk personality says he has "America's largest daytime talk audience", and "we have a quarter of a million listeners"...I've heard him say that 10 times or more over the past few years. I see the ratings...and not just 12+....in 18 counties this station reaches 73,000 total listeners.....so, many stations wildly exaggerate....they can't all be THAT stupid!").

P.S.: While it's not perfect, 923TheFan has done a teriffic job. I too rarely turn on WKNR except for Brinda's 10th inning show...and will listen to Roda if/when the NBA season gets going. Otherwise...I'm done with 850. Sounds like a college station (and that in of itself is an insult to most college stations). KNR has really faded in the past 6 months to a year...it's a shame.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Yes, the Indians could easily go to 92.3 without anyone in the region not being able to hear the games because there are so many affiliates in Akron, Canton, Lorain, Sandusky, Ashtabula, Norwalk, Youngstown, you name it. It would be a plus because the sound quality would be so much better. On a personal note, I could hear the games in my garage without having to turn off the fluorescent light which makes a big loud buzz over WTAM on AM. Not to mention a local thunderstorm making AM static crashes when I am trying to hear an away game.

This business of WTAM's big nighttime signal is pure hobby stuff for older geeks. First of all, as was pointed out, 1100 now has other stations on frequency at night and there is more interference from computers and overhead lines than ever before for AM. Trying to get WTAM outside of Cleveland at night these days is a crapshoot......some nights fine, some nights not even there. This is no selling point anymore. It is all going to FM and the internet. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Another thing to take into consideration is the condition of WTAM's transmitter plant and ground system. Who knows how well it's been maintained over the years (it's been in continuous use since the mid-70s, and was mostly built by NBC in the mid 30s).

Regardless, WTAM still has the best AM signal in the Cleveland metro, period. But that isn't saying much considering all of the deficincies every other AM signal in town has.

And remember, when WKNR/1220 served as the Indians flagship, their affiliate roster was bolstered considerably. After the Cavs were evicted from 1100 by Ted Stepian in 1981 (the PBP rights went to WBBG/1260), WAKR/1590 became a key affiliate to make up for WBBG's poor coverage.

92.3, moreso with 98.5, have a better chance at being "on-par" with WTAM in covering most of the Cleveland metro, since unlike most AM signals, their patterns aren't constricted by tight directional patterns (yes, 92.3 is directional somewhat, but nowhere near as bad as WKNR's night pattern).

 

[KeyTimes950]

Pittsburgh has some parallels to what is going on with Cleveland sports radio these days. KDKA-93.7 came into the ball game with Disney beginning a slow, painful process of turning WEAE-1250 from a full-service local sports station (sans most PBP) into an ESPN turnoff that ended, of course, with the actual turnoff of ESPN there in favor of mouse ears and Selena Gomez. Meanwhile, Clear Channel's only non-FM here, WBGG-970, was stumbling along with some but not all of the simulcasts from the FMs that held the rights to the Pitt Panthers (WWSW, lost last year to KDKA-FM), Steelers (WDVE), Penguins (WXDX) and Pirates (WPGB, but KDKA confirmed it is talking to the Pirates about a return to the FM side of the 50,000-watter that had Pirate rights for half a century). Incidentally, KDKA-AM nighttime announcers also still claim they reach 38 states and half of Canada -- but sometimes because of HD systems can't even reach Westmoreland County effectively.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Are the Pirates going to Pgh's Fan, for sure? They'd reported it as almost complete in the P-G, but backed off.

Think about this re: 92.3 here and the Indians.

They just gave away over 9,000 tickets to tonight's game. WKRK is listed as a sponsor in the Indians material, and I'm sure they had to pay SOMETHING for those tickets.

Even at a buck a piece, that's nearly $10,000. Just a guess on my part.

It isn't just a promotion...it's a way for CBS to show the Indians that they are willing to SPEND when the rights come up.

 

[Catmando]

I'm going to be painfully honest - since 92.3 went all sports the dial has been locked. I can say in all good conscience WKNR hasn't even been a thought as an option to listen to for sports talk in either of my cars.

Most people listened to KNR because there was nothing else on air. KNR actually has some nice pieces - Rizzo (sans the wanna-bes), Roda and Brinda (yeah Brinda).

To be brutally honest with you - KNR could never pull off the Thome/Indians ticket giveaway 92.3 is doing - why? Because the tickets had to be purchased. 92.3/CBS has a budget - a monster budget. They will not fail nor will they flip formats.

They will get play-by-play as soon as current contracts expire. Browns, Indians, Cavs, OSU - they all want to be on an FM signal. 92.3 will continue to grow and KNR is going to shrivel up.

Will KNR die? My best guess is probably not but they will be further reduced to irrelevency in the coming months. There is no question about it.

Not to say that 92.3 doesn't have some issues - they do - for starters Kiley & Booms - just garbage.

Baskin/Phelps have a lot of upside and they are nowhere near a finished product.

Bull/Fox may be the best sports talk show this city has had on the air in the last 15 years - honestly. They are that good and I am sure they will continue to improve.

Ken Carmen is nice.

Hearing Daryl Ruiter and Matt Loede calling in reports makes my ears bleed. Mercifully they are only on for a minute here or there.

Whatever weekend programming is on 92.3 is just filler in my estimation and will eventually be replaced. All in due time. If there was anything of real merit on the weekends they would be given more opportunity M - F rather than some shows doing 5 hour shifts M - F. Think about it.

No matter how hard KNR tries to re-image themselves or let callers actually talk it's too much, too little, too late. They had the market all to themselves, got lazy, got cheap, got cocky and now they are getting passed.

I wouldn't say that Kiley and Booms are garbage. They are a morning show and try to mix sports talk and the morning show gimmicks into it. If that show was a mid-day show I would agree on the garbage line.

I hope Baskin and Phelps get more interviews. When a show goes multiple days with the same survey question that is not good radio overall.

Bill and Fox are good. They do sound like the KNR "know it alls" at times but overall great stuff.

Ken Carmen keeps the show interesting to listen to and thinks out of the box--good radio for sure.

I do like Matt Loede and Daryl Ruiter. They are only on for a minute or so but they are hired as reporters not as hosts so they are doing their job.

Haven't listened much on weekends yet. Jury is out on them in my book but weekends aren't going to make or break a station.

KNR status is not good. I bet they wish they can have that move of what they did with the 1st hour of Rome's show back. As soon as that contract is up Rome is gone and KNR will be a shell of itself from there.

On a personal note, sorry CleveRadioInsider I am not Cocaine as you thought. By the way ClevelRadioInsider if you are really an "insider" as you say why is it that OhioMediaWatch had all the scoop on the start of 92.3 and you had none and you also went as far as to chastise OhioMediaWatch in a somewhat jealous way? It seems you have no problem attacking others like OMW, Cocaine, myself among others but when you are questioned (not attacked) for things you say you run away--not very good credibility for someone that claims to be an "insider".

A lot of great feedback on this thread by many. Have a good weekend all. GO BROWNS!!

 

[schmave]

It probably covers about 20 nowadays, but the only states that matter to the Indians are Ohio and maybe western Pennsylvania - where their fan base is.

Erie PA even has an affiliate - WRIE/1260 "The Score".

People in the rest of Western PA have no trouble picking up WKBN/570 Youngstown.

If 1100 were replaced by 92.3, who (in the Indians marketing territory) wouldn't be able to hear the games anymore? I suspect no one:

WEST: Lorain County is more than covered by WEOL/930, and those further west can get WLEC/1450 Sandusky, WLKR/95.3 Norwalk (and even WSPD/1370 Toledo!).

SOUTHWEST: Wooster's WQKT/104.5 blankets that area very well, and even gets into Summit and Stark Counties, and further southwest, there's WMAN/1400 Mansfield and WQEL/92.7 Bucyrus.

SOUTH: WAKR/1590 Akron and WHBC/1480 Canton are long-time, solid Indians affiliates. 92.3 is also heard pretty well north of downtown Akron, and as mentioned, 104.5 is an option in much of this area as well.

SOUTHEAST: WKBN/570 covers nearly all of this area.

EAST/NORTHEAST: WFUN/970 Ashtabula's signal dovetails quite nicely with whereever 92.3's signal dies out. WABQ/1460 Painesville is on the Indians list, but I'm pretty sure Gary Richards isn't carrying them.

These stations are established, carrying Indians games for decades in most cases. It's not a stopgap like the St. Louis situation.

Heck you can get 104.5 almost to Columbus on a good day. And since we have no Indians affiliate in Columbus proper, Tribe fans almost have to listen to WTAM, and it truly is a crapshoot how WTAM comes in down here at night. It was blasting in Thursday night. Other times, you can't hear it.
As an aside, the fact that stations as close in as Elyria and Painesville always have carried Tribe games seems like a testament to 1100's signal not being great if you need affiliates within 30 miles of the flagship.

 

[Tim]

The tower used by WTAM has always been owned, to the best of my knowledge, by Carl Smith Consultants (radio/TV antenna/technical consultants)...and I believe it's Snowville Road in Brecksville, just east of old route 21, near the old Brecksville VA hospital.

Unless they bought the tower recently....Clear Channel and previous 1100AM owners lease the tower space from Smith.

WZAK and WAKS are also on that tower....along with other police/fire/EMS/taxi cab companies. The tower is so loaded down with antennas, it's a wonder it doesn't collapse. LOL.

Is the WTAM ground system below that tower in good shape? Who knows.

But, I know the coverage up to 500 miles at night isn't nearly as good as other 50,000 watt AMs like WJR in Detroit, WLS in Chicago, WBZ in Boston (killer signal), WHO in Des Moines, and so forth.

 

[richwithhatred]

I've been listening almost nonstop since the station debuted and my opinion is slowly changing.

- Kiley and Booms is still very, very weak. They just don't sound cohesive at all. The best show they did was when one of them was in Atlanta. They just interacted a lot better not being in the same room.

- Talking Heads is OK, if you like happy-time radio. They are definitely "glass is almost full if it has a drop of water in it" type of guys. I guess that's fine, but they could be a touch more critical of SOMETHING. With three average to below average teams in town, everything can't be great and promising.

- Bull and the Fox. I've come around on the Bull, and I do find Dustin Fox's football insight as a former player interesting to say the least. They were having a talk about Terrell Owens this week, and Fox's first hand knowledge of TO from being a teammate was very intriguing and added a to the conversation. He really changed my personal view on TO from believing what the national perception of his locker room attitude is. The two interact well too. Adam needs to be a better interviewer, and stop saying "hey xxxx" before asking every single question he asks. He literally said "hey montario" before every question he asked him, like there was someone else on the line or something. Annoying.

Ken Carman - typical night sports talk guy - the sports talker with some quirkiness.

Bottom Line for me - I'm listening. Where most people seem to like Rizzo and his REALLY BIG SHOW, that show has been terrible to me since the day it started. Fedor and Hammer are terrible, and Rizzo ringing that damn cowbell every two seconds is ridiculously annoying. I used to listen to Rome every day, but his act played out years ago. Reghi and Roda - like Roda better solo, but overall they are listenable. Being honest, probably the ONLY local talker on WKNR I would listen to. Brinda - always have hated him on air with his smug attitude. He always came off as a lesser version of Bruce Drennan who thought he was the biggest thing in radio. He stinks. I don't even know what else they do over there anymore.

If 92.3 gets a team, it's over for KNR. Surprisingly, the one they have the best, quickest opportunity to get (OSU Buckeyes) will be the death of KNR since they have built so much of their programming around talking college football.

 

[KeyTimes950]

Are the Pirates going to Pgh's Fan, for sure? They'd reported it as almost complete in the P-G, but backed off.

Think about this re: 92.3 here and the Indians.

They just gave away over 9,000 tickets to tonight's game. WKRK is listed as a sponsor in the Indians material, and I'm sure they had to pay SOMETHING for those tickets.

Even at a buck a piece, that's nearly $10,000. Just a guess on my part.

It isn't just a promotion...it's a way for CBS to show the Indians that they are willing to SPEND when the rights come up.

Let me bring up my answer from another Cleveland blog string, regarding the Pirates:

The Pirates backed off The Fan announcement today, saying CC is still in the running for a new Pirates contract.

Unless the Pirates made some sort of an announcement since 4 p.m. today, they haven't said anything about their broadcast deal, at least not on the record. KDKA didn't even confirm on the record that it was talking to the Pirates until Monday, Clear Channel hasn't said anything and the Pirates haven't returned calls. Having said that, I think Bob Smizik at the Post-Gazette's website has some good sources within the sports broadcasting world and could be the first to make it public once a deal is struck ... if the guy at the McKeesport Daily News doesn't get it first.

I should add in Bob's case "good 'not-for-attribution' sources" As of 2 p.m. Sunday, still no such announcement. (Not that I expected one in the midst of a pretty busy sports weekend in my favorite market.)

 

[Rusty Muck]

As an aside, the fact that stations as close in as Elyria and Painesville always have carried Tribe games seems like a testament to 1100's signal not being great if you need affiliates within 30 miles of the flagship.

WEOL actually became an Indians affiliate in 1992, the same year WKNR became the flagship. It actually spoke more to 1220's so-so night signal in much of Lorain County. Prior to 1971, WEOL had carried the games, but that was because then-flagship WERE/1300's signal has always been adequate in much of Lorain County. After that, WLRO/1380 Lorain - then a daytimer - only had day games for a year or two, then dropped out when 3WE became the flagship.

WEOL has remained with the Indians primarily due to loyalty between the team and ELB personnel. Ditto with WAKR. The same applies to the Cavaliers having WEOL as an affiliate -- during the 1980s, WOBL/1320 actually was the Cavs' affiliate in Lorain County while WBBG/1260 and WRMR/850 served as flagships, up until the move to the Gund in 1994. (Not to mention that current WEOL sports director Tim Alcorn had like duties at WOBL back then, and he's always been close friends with Joe Tait.)

WABQ/1460 hasn't carried an Indians, an OSU or a Browns game since the conversion to gospel in 2006. Who knows if Gary Richards is interested in re-affiliating with all three teams. He SHOULD if he wants some sort of a revenue stream, IMO.

 

[Rusty Muck]

The tower used by WTAM has always been owned, to the best of my knowledge, by Carl Smith Consultants (radio/TV antenna/technical consultants)...and I believe it's Snowville Road in Brecksville, just east of old route 21, near the old Brecksville VA hospital.

Unless they bought the tower recently....Clear Channel and previous 1100AM owners lease the tower space from Smith.

WZAK and WAKS are also on that tower....along with other police/fire/EMS/taxi cab companies. The tower is so loaded down with antennas, it's a wonder it doesn't collapse. LOL.

Is the WTAM ground system below that tower in good shape? Who knows.

But, I know the coverage up to 500 miles at night isn't nearly as good as other 50,000 watt AMs like WJR in Detroit, WLS in Chicago, WBZ in Boston (killer signal), WHO in Des Moines, and so forth.

The Carl Smith consultant building is the original WTAM transmitter building that NBC built back in the 1930s. NBC vacated it in 1954 or so, when a singular tower for WNBK/4-3 and WTAM AM/FM was constructed in Parma. (WNBK's successor, WKYC/3, used it up until the digital TV transition in 2009; it was dismantled last year.)

When then-WWWE moved off of the WKYC-TV tower back in the mid 70s, a replacement building was tx constructed at the original site, because Carl Smith had already owned the property for quite some time. But the fact that the land has always been leased could explain why Randy Michaels et al. never were able to tend to that tower/tx site the way they tended to WLW's tower/tx, or at other Jacor/CC AM sites.

I'm curious if it was NBC that wanted WWWE, which no longer was an NBC O&O, off of the WKYC-TV tower... or if it was a personal preference by WWWE's Embresica/Mileti ownership group to go back.