• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

WKST (Kiss 96.1) has declining ratings

Jay, how much of that is because Pittsburgh likes the "soothing classic rock of WDVE" (which is about what it is) and how much of it is because Pittsburgh has no alternative for classic rock?

We can argue back and forth, but I thought when K-Rock had Stern and that allowed WDSY to briefly tie WDVE- that was the first sign.

When I see the Morgantown classic rock station showing up in the book- that is a first sign.

Just looking at similar stations with WDVE's playlist-

One of them is WMGK in Philadelphia. Radio and Records hasn't had a Philadelphia book since 2006, but they list WMGK- featuring the legendary John DeBella in the morning- in 8th place and are beaten by WMMR.

Now, I want you to look at this, which is the Top 500 songs of all time by WMGK from 2002

http://www.patmedia.net/classicrock/TheUltimateTop500-2002.html

Do you see how old that list is?

And it is, by the way, supposedly a ROCK list.

So let's see here, this list includes:

Marvin Gaye

Ben E King

The Temptations

Louis Armstrong

Michael Jackson

Eddie Cochran (coming in at No. 93 with a song from 1958!)

Diana Ross

The Righteous Brothers

Gladys Knight

Roger Miller

Barbara Streisand

The Kingston Trio

Tony Bennett

Dean Martin

Tammy Wynette

Bonnie Raitt

Brenda Lee

Abba

Tina Turner

AND ALL OF THEM- ON A SO-CALLED CLASSIC ROCK RADIO STATION- ARE LISTED AHEAD OF THE TOP AC/DC SONG (You Shook Me All Night Long- No. 269)!

Now, WDVE is not at this extreme.

But sometimes I feel what I'm listening to on WDVE IS comparable to this list. Perhaps WDVE isn't playing The Kingston Trio (though I challenge any rock band to metal-up "MTA." That song could go a long way with some hair on its chest) but WDVE is just SO orientated away from real hard rock songs.

I honestly believe that if a station stepped forth to be more of a real hard rocker they would make a significant impact in Pittsburgh.

That's my bottom line.
 
Pratte4Life said:
Second, after doing some research I found WMMS peaked as a rock station in the 80s. It started to decline in the 90s when much of the airstaff left.

That's funny. WMMS was a legendary Top 40 station in the 80s - one that leaned heavily on Adult Rock, and was far and away the top ranked station in Cleveland in the Arbitron ratings.
 
Response to Dave:

If you like the music 96.1 plays then enjoy. My problem is not with the music they play but how often they play the same songs. My place of employment plays 96.1 so try as I might to tune it out, I hear what they are doing. They are providing lazy programming, hoping no one calls them out. The artists you mentioned are all talented in their own way, but how many times can one listen to "Big Girls Don't Cry",
"Rock Star" "U Make Me Better", "I'll Wait For You", etc. They play these songs once an hour, every hour. Am I the only one who gets tired of hearing the same songs? I can only hope that more people get tired of the repetitive nature of this station and start tuning out, therefore lowering their ratings even more and forcing yet another format change. Come to think of it, this is another thing 96.1 does repeatedly; change formats. I an old enough to remember 96 Kicks, Variety 96, etc. Speaking just for me, I hope another format change is just around the corner.
 
Unfortunately, it appears just about every CHR in the Top 50 markets plays their top songs ultra-repetitively. That is likely due to the fact that most listeners only spend a certain of time per day/week listening to the radio, and when they turn on a CHR they expect to hear the hits.
Here's what Kiss Pittsburgh is playing, along with the amount of airplay given to each record:
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WKST-FM

Let's compare that with CHRs of equal or greater market size:
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WHTZ-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=KIIS-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WKSC-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=KHKS-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WIHT-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WXKS-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WKQI-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WIOQ-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=KKRZ-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WAKS-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WNKS-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=KDND-FM

The main exceptions I could find are Cumulus-owned CHRs, which tend to play more Recurrents, are more conservative about playing new records, and are even more conservative when it comes to playing Hip Hop:
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=KRBE-FM
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WWWQ-FM
 
Ah, but CHRles, on the weekends WMMS WAS playing rock during that period of time, and gradually moving to it as a format.

Also, mid-80s Pop and today's pop are two different animals entirely. In the Mid-80s you might see Twisted Sister in the Top 40, today you will not see as many (if any at all) rock acts.
 
You still see some Rock acts on Top 40 radio today like Panic At The Disco!, Fallout Boy, and other acts that appeal to teens like Twisted Sister once did.

I'd compare the sound of WMMS in the 80s maybe to the current sound of 93.7 STW in Wilmington, Delaware:
http://www.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess/Stations.asp?c_let=WSTW-FM

The playlist of WMMS in early January of 1988 was as follows:
1) John Cougar Mellencamp "Cheery Bomb"
2) Whitesnake "Is This Love"
3) INXS "Need You Tonight"
4) Whitney Houston "So Emotional"
5) George Michael "Faith"
6) Bruce Springsteen "Tunnel of Love"
7) Prince "I Could Never Take The Pkace of Your Man"
8 ) Icehouse "Crazy"
9) Eric Carmen "Hungry Eyes"
10) Michael Jackson "The Way You Make Me Feel"
11) Heart "There's The Girl"
12) Bangles "Hazy Shade of Winter"
13) Men Without Hats "Pop Goes The World"
14) The Cure "Just Like Heaven"
15) Paul Carrack "Don't Shed A Tear"
16) Michael Bolton "That's What Love Is All About"
17) George Harrison "Got My Mind Set On You"
18) The Kane Gang "Motortown"
19) Def Leppard "Animal"
20) Foreigner "Say You Will"
21) Elton John "Candle In The Wind"
22) Fleetwood Mac "Everywhere"
23) New Order "True Faith"
24) R.E.M. "The One I Love"
25) Sting "We'll Be Together"
26) Cher "I Found Someone"
27) Stevie Winwood "Valerie"
28) Belinda Carlisle "Heaven Is A Place On Earth"
29) Bourgeouis "Tag I Don't Mind At All"
30) The Hooters "Karla"
31) Tiffany "Could Have Been"
32) Europe "Cherokee"
33) Mick Jagger "Throwawy"
34) U2 "In God's Country"
35) The Alarm "Rain In The Summertime"
36) Bill Medley & Jennifer Warnes "I've Had The Time of My Life"

Again, very Adult friendly, and definitely more then just rock oriented. Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Michael Bolton, Elton John, New Order, Prince, Tiffany, George Michael. All alongside different shades of Rock - U2, Def Leppard, R.E.M., Mick Jagger, INXS, Europe, The Cure, and Heart.
In fact, most AOR stations at the time were adult leaning as well, and their currents were for the most part NOT Hard Rock. Rather it was about new releases from the likes of Bruce Springsteen. There were some Hard Rock stations in places like San Antonio, L.A., maybe Salt Lake City. There were actually CHRs, like 97.1 The Eagle Dallas or Star 97 Norfolk, that played more Hard Rock in rotation then most Rock stations. Of course, one of the big supporters of Hard Rock at the time was MTV.
You also had the Z-Rock stations, but most of them weren't big in the ratings. Also remember that as big as Metallica is today on Rock radio, in 1988 most Rock stations weren't playing them, not even "One". It became a hit mainly due to the song's popularity on Dial MTV. Most Rock stations finally started playing Metallica during the ultra-successful Black album. All of a sudden it became cool to play Metallica's back-catalog anthems like "Master of Puppets" and "Fade to Black".

Most Hard Rock leaning stations didn't really take off until the 90s. Most SUCCESSFUL Hard Rock stations didn't materialize until the mid 90s when Active Rock was all the rage - Active Rock based its playlist on the harder Grunge acts, on a playlist that was more current-based then other Mainstream Rock stations, but usually not as current intensive as Modern Rock stations.

Anyways, by mid 1988 WMMS was a bit more Hard Rock friendly, but only because it was all over the charts, and all over Top 40 radio. Its core sound was still the same. Here's the playlist from early July:

1) Robert Plant "Tall Cool One"
2) Cheap Trick "The Flame"
3) INXS "New Sensation"
4) Bruce Hornsby & The Range "The Valley Road"
5) Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me"
6) Eric Carmen "Make Me Lose Control"
7) Lita Ford "Kiss Me Deadly"
8 ) Michael Jackson "Dirty Diana"
9) Poison "Nothin But A Good Time"
10) Steve Winwood "Roll With It"
11) Terrence Trent Darby "Sign Your Name"
12) Rod Stewart "Lost In You"
13) Midnight Oil "Beds Are Burning"
14) Ziggy Markey "Tommorow People"
15) Hall & Oates "Everything Your Heart Desires"
16) Aerosmith "Rag Doll"
17) Sade "Paradise"
18) Richard Marx "Hold On To The Nights"
19) Jane Wiedlin "Rush Hour"
20) Boz Scaggs "Heart of Mine"
21) The Church "Under The Milky Way"
22) Henry Lee Summer "Darlin Danielle Don't"
23) Prince "Alphabet Street"
24) Belinda Carlisle "Circle In The Sand"
25) Van Halen "Black & Blue"
26) Chicago "I Don't Want To Live Without Your Love"
27) Gloria Estafan & The Miami Soundmachine "Anything For You"
28) Breathe "Hands To Heaven"
29) Cher "We All Sleep Alone"
30) Michael Bolton "Wait On Love"
31) Scorpions "Rhythm of Love"
32) Climie Fisher "Love Changes Everything"
33) Elton John "I Don't Wanna Go On With You Like That"
34) Moody Blues "I Know You're Out There Somewhere"
35) Eurythmics "You Have Placed A Chill"
36) Contours "Do You Love Me"
37) Joan Jett & The Blackhearts "I Hate Myself For Loving You"
38) Tracy Chapman "Fast Car"

So moving on to January of 1989 where we can finally see it more clearly that WMMS was trying to become a Top 40/Rock station. Less Currents, it held on to certain songs a lot longer as evidenced by the Joan Jett and G N'R songs found at numbers 22 and 24, and Hair bands are all over the place from Poison to the female act Vixen, to Cinderella, Bon Jovi, Guns N Roses, and White Lion :
1) Poison "Every Rose Has Its Thorn"
2) Chicago "Look Away"
3) Vixen "Edge of a Broken Heart"
4) Eddie Money "Walk On Water"
5) Van Halen "Finish What You Started"
6) Cinderella "Don't Know What You Got Till It's Gone"
7) Def Leppard "Armageddon It"
8 ) Georgia Satellites "Hippy Hippy Shake"
9) Phil Collins "Two Hearts"
10) Bon Jovi "Bad Medicine"
11) Guns N Roses "Welcome To The Jungle"
12) Joan Jett & The Blackhearts "Little Liar"
13) White Lion "When The Children Cry"
14) Rod Stewart "Forever Young"
15) Randy Newman "It's Money That Matters"
16) Ivan Neville "Not Just Another Girl"
17) Steve Winwood "Holding On"
18) Bangles "In Your Room"
19) Bon Jovi "Born To Be My Baby"
20) Pat Banatar "All Fired Up"
21) Annie Lennox & Al Green "Put A Little Love In Your Heart"
22) Joan Jett & The Blackhearts "I Hate Myself For Loving You"
23) Sheriff "When I'm With You"
24) Guns N Roses "Sweet Child O Mine"
25) Maxi Priest "Wild World"
26) Rod Stewart "My Heart Can't Tell You No"
27) Cheap Trick "Ghost Town"
28) Eddie Brickell & The New Bohemians "What I Am"
29) Robbin Zander & Ann Wilson "Surrender To Me"
30) U2 "Angel of Harlem"

By mid 1989 WMMS had significantly cut down its playlist of Currents. It only played about 20 in regular rotation. Here's the playlist from early July:
1) Fine Young Cannibals "Good Thing"
2) Richard Marx "Satisfied"
3) Tom Petty "I Won't Back Down"
4) Elvis Costello "Veronica"
5) Cyndi Lauper "I Drove All Night"
6) Stevie Nicks "Rooms On Fire"
7) Doobie Brothers "The Doctor"
8 ) Bangles "Be With You"
9) Warrant "Down Boys"
10) Rod Stewart "Crazy About Her"
11) Paul Mccartney "My Brave Face"
12) Bon Jovi "Lay Your Hands On Me"
13) Cinderella "Coming Home"
14) Love And Rockets "So Alive"
15) Peter Gabriel "In Your Eyes"
16) Henry Lee Summer "Hey Baby"
17) The Cult "Fire Woman"
18) Great White "Once Bitten Twice Shy"
19) Don Henley "The End of the Innocense"

Also in light or "extra" rotation were songs like Winger's "Heading For a Heartbreak", White Lion "Little Fighter", and U2's "All I Want Is You".

WMMS was an all-out Rock station in the 90s, but was it hard rocking? Here's a sample hour of Middays at WMMS from May of 1991:
The Who "Who Are You"
Steve Winwood "Valerie"
Doobie Brothers "Dangerous"
Rush "Fly By Night"
Mark Cohn "Walking In Memphis"
Eric Clapton "I've Got A Rock & Roll Heart"
Cinderella "Heartbreak Station"
The Repacements "Where It Began"
Jethro Tull "Aqualung"
ELO "Evil Woman"

Since this post started in reference to Pittsburgh's current Top 40 station, I'd be happy to post old playlists from B-94 at this time.
 
One of the problems with posting lists like this is that nobody goes through them all.

Now, I'm probably the world's worst offender of this. So I'm not about to criticize you for it.

But if I may, on that first list, four of the first six songs listed were by rock acts.

And let me say this, in that second 1988 and 1989 list I would say that there were more hard rocking songs than I am currently hearing on WDVE.

Again, let's remember the original point. I'm not sure that you can compare WMMS to WDVE for the factors I mentioned above- namely the fact there is a larger African-American audience in Cleveland and the playlist someone on here said was dragging the station down had actually just been implemented two weeks ago.

I could point out to a station with a similar playlist to WDVE's, Detroit's WCSX, gets a 2.8, and is beaten badly by WRIF, a very good station that had a playlist similar to what K-Rock's was on the rare occassion they played music.

The bottom line is that if I want rock in this town I have two choices- WDVE and The X.

And neither one of them is catered to my 30something demographic.
 
Pratte4Life said:
One of the problems with posting lists like this is that nobody goes through them all.

Now, I'm probably the world's worst offender of this. So I'm not about to criticize you for it.

But if I may, on that first list, four of the first six songs listed were by rock acts.

And let me say this, in that second 1988 and 1989 list I would say that there were more hard rocking songs than I am currently hearing on WDVE.

Again, let's remember the original point. I'm not sure that you can compare WMMS to WDVE for the factors I mentioned above- namely the fact there is a larger African-American audience in Cleveland and the playlist someone on here said was dragging the station down had actually just been implemented two weeks ago.

I could point out to a station with a similar playlist to WDVE's, Detroit's WCSX, gets a 2.8, and is beaten badly by WRIF, a very good station that had a playlist similar to what K-Rock's was on the rare occassion they played music.

The bottom line is that if I want rock in this town I have two choices- WDVE and The X.

And neither one of them is catered to my 30something demographic.

A question for Pratte.
Where would I be able to find old playlists from former Pittsburgh radio stations? Is there a special website? All help is appreciated.
 
Todd said:
Pratte4Life said:
One of the problems with posting lists like this is that nobody goes through them all.

Now, I'm probably the world's worst offender of this. So I'm not about to criticize you for it.

But if I may, on that first list, four of the first six songs listed were by rock acts.

And let me say this, in that second 1988 and 1989 list I would say that there were more hard rocking songs than I am currently hearing on WDVE.

Again, let's remember the original point. I'm not sure that you can compare WMMS to WDVE for the factors I mentioned above- namely the fact there is a larger African-American audience in Cleveland and the playlist someone on here said was dragging the station down had actually just been implemented two weeks ago.

I could point out to a station with a similar playlist to WDVE's, Detroit's WCSX, gets a 2.8, and is beaten badly by WRIF, a very good station that had a playlist similar to what K-Rock's was on the rare occassion they played music.

The bottom line is that if I want rock in this town I have two choices- WDVE and The X.

And neither one of them is catered to my 30something demographic.

A question for Pratte.
Where would I be able to find old playlists from former Pittsburgh radio stations? Is there a special website? All help is appreciated.

You can find the older playlists for WBZZ in back issues of "Billboard" magazine from 1986 to about 1993 when they phase out the data into "Billboard Airplay Monitor" (a separate publication). Also from 1983-84, the weekly adds were listed by station (but the full playlist was never shown).

Just for fun, here's a sample of WBZZ from an aircheck recorded in December, 1984. The jock was Scott Alexander (middays)

Culture Club-Miss Me Blind
Fleetwood Mac-Dreams
Foreigner-I Want To Know What Love Is
(stopset)
Huey Lewis & The News-Walking On A Thin Line
Michael Jackson-Don't Stop (Till You Get Enough)
Cyndi Lauper-All Through The Night
Wham!-Careless Whisper
(stopset)
The Doors-Touch Me
Pat Benatar-We Belong

Robyn
 
corporateradiosucks said:
The Doors on B-94 in 1984????

Are you sure that's right? Could that have maybe been Q-94?

Or was it some kind of stunt?

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it was just one of those oldies thrown in to the set. It definitely wasn't a stunt.
 
RobynWattsV2.0 said:
You can find the older playlists for WBZZ in back issues of "Billboard" magazine from 1986 to about 1993 when they phase out the data into "Billboard Airplay Monitor" (a separate publication). Also from 1983-84, the weekly adds were listed by station (but the full playlist was never shown).

Just for fun, here's a sample of WBZZ from an aircheck recorded in December, 1984. The jock was Scott Alexander (middays)

Culture Club-Miss Me Blind
Fleetwood Mac-Dreams
Foreigner-I Want To Know What Love Is
(stopset)
Huey Lewis & The News-Walking On A Thin Line
Michael Jackson-Don't Stop (Till You Get Enough)
Cyndi Lauper-All Through The Night
Wham!-Careless Whisper
(stopset)
The Doors-Touch Me
Pat Benatar-We Belong

Robyn

B94 in its heyday was what a lot of good mass-appeal stations have been over the years, basically different stations in different dayparts depending on who was available to listen. Quinn and Banana in AM drive played Whitney Houston ballads and a few top-5 hits, and the station was basically a Hot A/C through the day. Then it skewed to the younger stuff once the kids got home from school.

Our buddy Mr. Ingram could probably give us some insight on that if he's still reading these days...
 
Stations play their top 5 or so hits continuousally because it's an easier route for their TSL. Play the songs that test well more often so they don't need to worry about people tuning out of something they don't care for. Plus the more likely the listener will tune into something that they like & is familiar.
 
RobynWattsV2.0 said:
You can find the older playlists for WBZZ in back issues of "Billboard" magazine from 1986 to about 1993 when they phase out the data into "Billboard Airplay Monitor" (a separate publication). Also from 1983-84, the weekly adds were listed by station (but the full playlist was never shown).

Correct :)
 
response to spongebag 7890:

I respect the reasoning you give as to the repititive nature of radio stations, but am I the only one who gets tired of hearing the same songs over and over? I know the thinking is people do not listen to the radio for hours on end and people turn on and off throughout the day. Are there other people out there who are forced to listen to 96.1 Kiss at work for hours on end and get irritated after hearing "Rockstar" and "Big Girls Don't Cry" 8 or 9 times during a typical work day. Or am I alone in this?
 
unless you're a female 18-27, kiss doesn't care if you listen or not...and the lives of those kind of people are a million miles an hour...oh, and they're on their cell phone...if you are out of the demo, you're not supposed to like kiss...so maybe they are doing their job...
 
pghfmradiosucks said:
response to spongebag 7890:

I respect the reasoning you give as to the repititive nature of radio stations, but am I the only one who gets tired of hearing the same songs over and over? I know the thinking is people do not listen to the radio for hours on end and people turn on and off throughout the day. Are there other people out there who are forced to listen to 96.1 Kiss at work for hours on end and get irritated after hearing "Rockstar" and "Big Girls Don't Cry" 8 or 9 times during a typical work day. Or am I alone in this?

No, but at the same time I'm not a 16 year old female.

Kiss 96.1 plays their #1 song (Kanye West's "Stronger") 90 times a week, and that ain't that bad considering I've seen some stations playing their #1 110 times a week or higher. Q102 Philly has "Stronger" at 120 times a week which is around once every hour and 15. But same thing, it's mostly for their TSL and keeping the hits on lock.
 
pghfmradiosucks said:
Playing the same 10 to 15 songs over and over and over again will not be successful.
Oh really now? ::)
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom