WLKK an alternative to the ALT format

[b-turner]

The thing people don't understand about sales is you cannot sell what people don't want and even if you could con them in to buying what they don't want, you wouldn't because any salesperson knows it is all about the relationship with the client. I only sell what my clients want and what I am confident will produce the results they seek.

I would think virtually any format has some potential clients. The question is if there are enough to sustain the operation. Obviously any owner seeks the easiest route to the dollars which means the hard way is typically never considered.

 

[davideduardo]

Everyone liked Top 40? There were many FM stations that played Album Rock and became quite successful. If a AAA format can get good ratings and reach affluent demos, a competent salesman should be able to find clients. Sometimes the problem is the sales staff, not the programming. That may be a hard pill to swallow, but it's true...

But Top 40 was, through the end of the 80's, the mass appeal format. While a smaller group went to AOR, the larger group was with Top 40. It was not the core format for everyone, but seeing the format cuming over 50% of all non-ethnic people in individual markets was not unusual.

In many markets, going back to the 80's, oldies (not renamed to Classic Hits) and Country shared lots of listeners. AOR shared with just about nobody.

Anecdotally, one of my daughters is an attorney in her 40's. She still checks her local CHR station regularly to hear what new music is out. She is not a P1, or even P2... but she listens. That is the core to understanding the format.

AAA only gets decent numbers in a few markets on commercial stations... Portland and Denver being the standouts. But both are nearly 50-year heritage stations that have kept up with the music, lifestyle and market.

In most markets it under-performs and has a hard to sell image. Take KSCA in LA some 23 years ago... years at the under-2 share performance and agencies thought the audience was mostly tokers and worse. And that is despite being owned by market legend Gene Autrey and managed by a local iconic manager.

No matter how good the sellers, if clients don't like the format they will not buy. The same thing happened to Stern in many markets: bail bondsmen, pawn shops and cheap car insurance for the un-insurable were the core accounts.

Sellers can't create a need that does not exist and get renewals. If clients in a market are predisposed or prejudiced against a format, they will not buy it.

To disprove your theory, ask anyone who tried to sell Spanish language radio in the 70's if they were able to win over biased buyers. Buy me a beer or two and I can go on for hours with anecdotes about that experience... things like "your listeners don't buy my cars... they steal them".

 

[Rusty Bridges]

I believe it was WBMW The Wave first (and I believe Cascianni used the brand of his car as an influence in choosing the initial call letters when he bought the station if I remember correctly). When that smooth jazz type format didn't make it, he then went to easy listening as WEZQ before going country as WNUC. But the signal is what it is in the Buffalo metro, particularly in the north towns.

Correct. It was in fact first WBMW, followed by WEZQ. But the primary point remains, the formats failed. The signal is deficient. What's more, even with a well-powered Buffalo translator, the present format gets little attention.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

"Your listeners don't buy my cars... they steal them".

AOR faced this hurdle in many markets, including Buffalo and 97 Rock. Black t-shirts scrawled "Rock n Roll Animals." One ad agency that particularly disliked the station and manager complied a video reel of station events populated by the "great unwashed," concluding with a kid in handcuffs sporting the station's infamous t-shirt.

 

[TVEngineerArk]

Correct. It was in fact first WBMW, followed by WEZQ. But the primary point remains, the formats failed. The signal is deficient. What's more, even with a well-powered Buffalo translator, the present format gets little attention.

Which still begs the question was it also the content of the formats or the signal that caused the failures? If Entercom stockholders get to the point where they rebel against the corporate philosophy of owning signals simply so no one else can own them and possibly compete with them (such as what is the case now with WLKK and WWKB) they could one day force some divestitures to raise capital. That's when Buddy might be able to get it and try his WECK content on the signal.

It's an intriguing thought from an outside observer, that's all.

 

[tbolt909]

AOR faced this hurdle in many markets, including Buffalo and 97 Rock. Black t-shirts scrawled "Rock n Roll Animals." One ad agency that particularly disliked the station and manager complied a video reel of station events populated by the "great unwashed," concluding with a kid in handcuffs sporting the station's infamous t-shirt.

The Woodstock generation faced scorn from the establishment. When advertisers realised they were a gold mine to be tapped, things changed. Rock became big business in the 70's.

There is a big difference between "Butt Rock" Blue Collar formats and AAA. Totally different demographics and lifestyle. AAA is probably a better fit for Non Commercial stations, but that doesn't mean it can't fit into a corporate group.

The point is that the current Alternative format on WLKK is moribund. It delivers nothing. It's certainly possible that AAA would find a larger audience and make money. Big A and David want you to believe that advertisers don't want to reach educated affluent demos. It's too hard to find clients or advertisers won't like the format. Advertisers don't want to reach Doctors, Lawyers and other professional people? That defies logic...

 

[davideduardo]

. Big A and David want you to believe that advertisers don't want to reach educated affluent demos. It's too hard to find clients or advertisers won't like the format. Advertisers don't want to reach Doctors, Lawyers and other professional people? That defies logic...

Very few buys are based on education and income. They are based on the demographic group that the goods or services being advertised has the greatest appeal to... and greatest return on the ad dollar from.

Have you ever called on an ad agency? Or had an ad agency for your own account?

 

[davideduardo]

Which still begs the question was it also the content of the formats or the signal that caused the failures? If Entercom stockholders get to the point where they rebel against the corporate philosophy of owning signals simply so no one else can own them and possibly compete with them (such as what is the case now with WLKK and WWKB) they could one day force some divestitures to raise capital. That's when Buddy might be able to get it and try his WECK content on the signal.

It's an intriguing thought from an outside observer, that's all.

If you have ever been at a contentious shareholder meeting, you will know that there is very little discussion about the actual goods or services a company provides. It's about executive suite decisions, debt ratios and service, executive compensation, debt, selling of less productive divisions and things like that.

 

[TheBigA]

It's certainly possible that AAA would find a larger audience and make money.

It's certainly possible that pigs could fly too. But I have seen pretty solid data about AAA music, and it's best served as a non-commercial format.

Unless they change the music. If the music became more commercial, then it might work. But then it would be a very different format, and it would alienate its current fans.

 

[b-turner]

The Woodstock generation faced scorn from the establishment. When advertisers realised they were a gold mine to be tapped, things changed. Rock became big business in the 70's.

There is a big difference between "Butt Rock" Blue Collar formats and AAA. Totally different demographics and lifestyle. AAA is probably a better fit for Non Commercial stations, but that doesn't mean it can't fit into a corporate group.

The point is that the current Alternative format on WLKK is moribund. It delivers nothing. It's certainly possible that AAA would find a larger audience and make money. Big A and David want you to believe that advertisers don't want to reach educated affluent demos. It's too hard to find clients or advertisers won't like the format. Advertisers don't want to reach Doctors, Lawyers and other professional people? That defies logic...

I'm not sure if you are in the radio business but there has been much written on this subject that you debunk. I question if you have had to deal with ad agencies and deal one on one with radio station owners. If you have you would understand what is being said.

Nothing is etched in stone. Round up some of those doctors and lawyers and buy a signal. Try it and see if you can pull it off. Buying a station now is cheap! Until you are in that sort of situation without a track record to verify your statements, your theory will be diminished in the eyes of those that deal with owners, ad agencies and the sort for their paycheck.

It is obvious you love the format, otherwise you would not make the statements you do. I always found the hardest part of programming is denying self for the target audience. If you get that chance, the end result, if done right, may be far less than you hoped for (or in other words a station you might find bland but your audience loves).

 

[TheBigA]

I always found the hardest part of programming is denying self for the target audience. If you get that chance, the end result, if done right, may be far less than you hoped for (or in other words a station you might find bland but your audience loves).

That was lesson #1 for me. I spent my college years promoting rock and alt, then discovered there were no jobs in the format. Every possible job was taken, and nobody was leaving. My only chance was to regroup, reassess, and reinvent myself into something else. That's what kept me in the industry.

 

[tbolt909]

It's certainly possible that pigs could fly too. But I have seen pretty solid data about AAA music, and it's best served as a non-commercial format.

Unless they change the music. If the music became more commercial, then it might work. But then it would be a very different format, and it would alienate its current fans.

Alternative is a mainstream commercial format. It's aimed at younger demos that the ad agencies want. Do they still generate big revenue even without ratings? Some of these stations are almost commercial free and their ratings still suck. That means listeners don't want that product...

 

[TheBigA]

Alternative is a mainstream commercial format.

You posted about AAA, not alternative. Those are two different formats with two very different audiences. I know the difference.

Going more towards less commercial music doesn't create a more commercially viable format.

 

[tbolt909]

You posted about AAA, not alternative. Those are two different formats with two very different audiences. I know the difference.

Going more towards less commercial music doesn't create a more commercially viable format.

Yes, I know they are different. I mentioned that in other posts. You didn't address the question about why Alternative is a failing commercial format. It's not about what I like or don't like. Aren't radio stations in business to find an audience? Maybe not anymore...

 

[TheBigA]

You didn't address the question about why Alternative is a failing commercial format.

It's not consistently failing as a commercial format. It's getting bad ratings in Buffalo. That we know. Generally speaking, it helps when the music is mixed with other things. You see variations of how that's done around the country. I think others have already dealt with the reasons why Entercom stays with the format at 107.7.

 

[davideduardo]

Alternative is a mainstream commercial format. It's aimed at younger demos that the ad agencies want. Do they still generate big revenue even without ratings? Some of these stations are almost commercial free and their ratings still suck. That means listeners don't want that product...

Alt is often excluded from buys due to the image of the "typical" listener which many advertisers believe not to be a good potential consumer.

 

[CTListener]

Alt is often excluded from buys due to the image of the "typical" listener which many advertisers believe not to be a good potential consumer.

That image being one of the cynical, sarcastic slacker? Is there any evidence that that sort of person is representative of the majority of alt listeners, or doesn't that matter? But then, you've told the story of the auto dealer who didn't want to pay to reach LA Hispanics because they were more likely to steal a car than buy one, and we all know how malt liquor has been marketed heavily in places with large black populations, so I suppose advertisers, and advertising agencies, have always been comfortable in dealing in stereotypes, so it probably doesn't matter how many alt listeners conform to or differ from the stereotype.

 

[tbolt909]

Alt is often excluded from buys due to the image of the "typical" listener which many advertisers believe not to be a good potential consumer.

So the Alternative formats get excluded from buys for this reason and not because of lousy ratings? Everytime Entercom launched an Alternative format, their press release said the opposite of your statement. Something like "an exciting new brand aimed at demos that are in their prime buying years". If they felt it had no chance at buys, it would never get on the air...

 

[davideduardo]

So the Alternative formats get excluded from buys for this reason and not because of lousy ratings? Everytime Entercom launched an Alternative format, their press release said the opposite of your statement. Something like "an exciting new brand aimed at demos that are in their prime buying years". If they felt it had no chance at buys, it would never get on the air...

It's more complicated than that.

An agency will look at the amount of reach a station up for a buy adds. Alt stations tend to have higher AQH and lower cume, so they often don't improve reach very much compared to other stations formats.

Alt stations seem to have less than positive views by agencies. They are looked at like talk stations sometimes are... the buy is just skipped so as not to be in that environment.

We can see the results by looking at the power ratios. Most Alt stations that are not extreme heritage operations have ratios well below 1:1. That means that, whatever the reasons may be, those stations are just not getting the buys commensurate with their numbers.

 

[davideduardo]

That image being one of the cynical, sarcastic slacker? Is there any evidence that that sort of person is representative of the majority of alt listeners, or doesn't that matter? But then, you've told the story of the auto dealer who didn't want to pay to reach LA Hispanics because they were more likely to steal a car than buy one, and we all know how malt liquor has been marketed heavily in places with large black populations, so I suppose advertisers, and advertising agencies, have always been comfortable in dealing in stereotypes, so it probably doesn't matter how many alt listeners conform to or differ from the stereotype.

That is a fairly accurate summation.

However, the agency for the dealer association was in New York City and the brand was the best selling top tier one in Puerto Rico. We got a letter from the brand's agency in San Juan, and went to the dealers. They got a new agency.

But it takes work. I had another incident with a beer brand in LA who said that "Mexicans don't drink beer". We took him to a small bar, and the owner showed him his storage room for "just this weekend" where there were enough beer cases (back in the 70's) to fill the bar area to the ceiling, twice!

One of the hardest things to sell against is client prejudice.