WLLZ 106.7 Will No Longer Be A Grandfathered Super Power Station

[Schroedingers Cat]

Due to changes in the former site with 61000 W from 155 meters HAAT, WLLZ has been required to reasonably change its site to the WDET 101.9 tower, also currently collocated with WMXD 92.3. Also it will be licensed with 39000 W from 169 meters HAAT, diplexing a 10 Bay antenna for both WLLZ 106.7 and WDET 101.9. This 39000 watts is the current maximum equivalent for a Class B at 169 meters, and will no longer be a grandfathered super power station. WDET 101.9 will continue to be a grandfathered superpower station at 48000 W at 169 meters HAAT.

 

[umfan]

Due to changes in the former site with 61000 W from 155 meters HAAT, WLLZ has been required to reasonably change its site to the WDET 101.9 tower, also currently collocated with WMXD 92.3. Also it will be licensed with 39000 W from 169 meters HAAT, diplexing a 10 Bay antenna for both WLLZ 106.7 and WDET 101.9. This 39000 watts is the current maximum equivalent for a Class B at 169 meters, and will no longer be a grandfathered super power station. WDET 101.9 will continue to be a grandfathered superpower station at 48000 W at 169 meters HAAT.

Any assessment, even high level, on what practical effect this will have on their effective listening area? I assume far more interference at the fringes?

 

[fybush]

Any assessment, even high level, on what practical effect this will have on their effective listening area? I assume far more interference at the fringes?

Less than you'd think. Superpower stations haven't been protected from interference beyond normal class maximum levels for a long time now, and so 106.7 already takes interference at the fringes from other, newer stations anyway. And 61 kW/155 m is only a dB or two more than the 50 kW/150 m class maximum anyway, so the difference isn't huge.

It should be noted that the reason for this move is that the former 92.3/106.7 site atop the Cadillac Tower building has become unavailable - the building is long vacant and I understand there were issues with continued access there.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The problem with WMXD 92.3 is that the WDET tower is short spaced to WTGV 92.5 Marlette and WIDL 92.1 Cass City. It looks like the DA WMXD is using for the AUX would meet those requirements under 73.215. I have the feeling that if they don't have another site available further South soon, they will license it at the WDET site as the main LIC facility. If they license it at the WDET site, it will be difficult negotiating moving back further South under 73.213 grandfathered short spacing restrictions to WVKS 92.5 Toledo, WKRK 92.3 Cleveland Heights, and possibly others.

I no longer have access to my own DOS based Radiosoft program FMR written by Peter Moncure, and the new folks charge so much for their software that I can't justify buying it. It costs as much as a new car the last time I checked. Before, Peter had it priced reasonably for the casual technical consultant. I can do it with the FCC programs available on FCC.gov, but it's painstaking and slow. FMR was very versatile and timeless, as long as any new coordinates and and new facility changes are entered.

 

[Gregg.]

Less than you'd think. Superpower stations haven't been protected from interference beyond normal class maximum levels for a long time now, and so 106.7 already takes interference at the fringes from other, newer stations anyway. And 61 kW/155 m is only a dB or two more than the 50 kW/150 m class maximum anyway, so the difference isn't huge.

It should be noted that the reason for this move is that the former 92.3/106.7 site atop the Cadillac Tower building has become unavailable - the building is long vacant and I understand there were issues with continued access there.

I always thought that grandfathered FM stations were permitted to continue their higher power, even if they move to a new tower. If you were 10% above what you should be under current FM regulations and you move, you get to keep your 10% higher power on your new tower, whether the height is shorter or taller than where you had been. {I'm assuming that the old and new tower are not too far from each other and you haven't moved significantly nearer a co-channel or adjacent channel station.)

I'm trying to remember an example. I know there are several. But all I can think of is CKOI 96.9, which moved from a tower on an office building in downtown Montreal to the top of Mt. Royal where most of the city's other FM stations are. It was grandfathered (grand-pere?) at 307,000 watts at 712 feet. Now it's 148,000 watts at 908 feet. Of course, that's Canada, but I assume the CRTC and FCC have similar rules.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I always thought that grandfathered FM stations were permitted to continue their higher power, even if they move to a new tower. If you were 10% above what you should be under current FM regulations and you move, you get to keep your 10% higher power on your new tower, whether the height is shorter or taller than where you had been. {I'm assuming that the old and new tower are not too far from each other and you haven't moved significantly nearer a co-channel or adjacent channel station.)

I'm trying to remember an example. I know there are several. But all I can think of is CKOI 96.9, which moved from a tower on an office building in downtown Montreal to the top of Mt. Royal where most of the city's other FM stations are. It was grandfathered (grand-pere?) at 307,000 watts at 712 feet. Now it's 148,000 watts at 908 feet. Of course, that's Canada, but I assume the CRTC and FCC have similar rules.

The rules are similar but not identical. See Sections 73.211 and 73.213 for US rules. Also the FM Agreement Between the US and Canada.

 

[umfan]

Less than you'd think. Superpower stations haven't been protected from interference beyond normal class maximum levels for a long time now, and so 106.7 already takes interference at the fringes from other, newer stations anyway. And 61 kW/155 m is only a dB or two more than the 50 kW/150 m class maximum anyway, so the difference isn't huge.

It should be noted that the reason for this move is that the former 92.3/106.7 site atop the Cadillac Tower building has become unavailable - the building is long vacant and I understand there were issues with continued access there.

That is interesting insight I was not aware of. Thanks so much for sharing.

 

[umfan]

The problem with WMXD 92.3 is that the WDET tower is short spaced to WTGV 92.5 Marlette and WIDL 92.1 Cass City. It looks like the DA WMXD is using for the AUX would meet those requirements under 73.215. I have the feeling that if they don't have another site available further South soon, they will license it at the WDET site as the main LIC facility. If they license it at the WDET site, it will be difficult negotiating moving back further South under 73.213 grandfathered short spacing restrictions to WVKS 92.5 Toledo, WKRK 92.3 Cleveland Heights, and possibly others.

I no longer have access to my own DOS based Radiosoft program FMR written by Peter Moncure, and the new folks charge so much for their software that I can't justify buying it. It costs as much as a new car the last time I checked. Before, Peter had it priced reasonably for the casual technical consultant. I can do it with the FCC programs available on FCC.gov, but it's painstaking and slow. FMR was very versatile and timeless, as long as any new coordinates and and new facility changes are entered.

I appreciate the response. I know how gifted you are in being able to assess these things, which is why I asked.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I appreciate the response. I know how gifted you are in being able to assess these things, which is why I asked.

Thank you!