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WLS 25-54, 35-64

Curious how WLS-FM does in 25-54 and 35-64. Overall 6+ they look strong, but obviously the real money is in the demos. Since they are nontraditional in the sense that they play 50s and 60s with their 70s, curious how that works for them. Anyone have any insight? Not necessarily shares, but rank maybe?

They sound great; it's a fun listen, but is that fun carrying to a younger audience, or are they a typical 50+ Oldies station?

Thanks in advance for any insight someone has.
 
finallyescaped said:
Curious how WLS-FM does in 25-54 and 35-64. Overall 6+ they look strong, but obviously the real money is in the demos. Since they are nontraditional in the sense that they play 50s and 60s with their 70s, curious how that works for them. Anyone have any insight? Not necessarily shares, but rank maybe?

They sound great; it's a fun listen, but is that fun carrying to a younger audience, or are they a typical 50+ Oldies station?

Thanks in advance for any insight someone has.

All I can tell you is that they came in 10th (in a 6 way tie) in 25-54 during the most recent PPMs. They were tied with WLEY, WILV, WGN, WBBM and WKQX. Recent trends have had them between 6th and 10th in the demo - May wasn't their best month.

Amazingly, they landed 14th in the 18-34 demo, tied with the Loop and one notch ahead of WXRT.

On the whole, they're doing quite well for Citadel. That's because most of their programming is a feed of Scott Shannon's TOC, so it's a relatively cheap format to run. They get better advertisers for the FM side than they can sell on the AM, that's for sure!
 
Being between 6th and 10th 25-54 isn't bad considering they are 60s based. That's a good success story for "real" Oldies. Any other markets have that kind of story? I know in most markets the real Oldies stations are usually suffering to stay out of the 55+ realm.
 
finallyescaped said:
Being between 6th and 10th 25-54 isn't bad considering they are 60s based. That's a good success story for "real" Oldies. Any other markets have that kind of story? I know in most markets the real Oldies stations are usually suffering to stay out of the 55+ realm.

The average for the first 3 books of 2010 was 9th in 25-54 and 14th in 18-49. When April, May and, soon, June are considered it seems apparent that WLS FM will not be in the top 10 25-54, and in 18-49 will be closer to 20th.
 
finallyescaped said:
Curious how WLS-FM does in 25-54 and 35-64.

35-64 is really not a sales demo. 18-34, 18-49, 25-54 and their subsets are.
 
DavidEduardo said:
finallyescaped said:
Being between 6th and 10th 25-54 isn't bad considering they are 60s based. That's a good success story for "real" Oldies. Any other markets have that kind of story? I know in most markets the real Oldies stations are usually suffering to stay out of the 55+ realm.

The average for the first 3 books of 2010 was 9th in 25-54 and 14th in 18-49. When April, May and, soon, June are considered it seems apparent that WLS FM will not be in the top 10 25-54, and in 18-49 will be closer to 20th.

David, they were already 10th in the 25-54 - so it's not that apparent. Now, I'll grant you 2 things:

1) I'm not going to wager in the 18-49, but they've been running in the low teens so your outlook seems a bit pessimistic; and,

2) From what I can tell, baseball on WGN and WSCR seems to take some ears away from WLS-FM during certain dayparts. Ever since the season started, you could see them lose men during those dayparts - however they have remained strong with women.

All in all, the summer may not be their best season. However, I've caught you underestimating this station before.
 
BRNout said:
However, I've caught you underestimating this station before.

When CBS-FM is consistently in the top couple of stations in 25-54 in New York City, The Walrus top 5 in San Diego with a Mexican signal, WOGL third in Philly and KOOL-FM in the top several stations in Phoenix, it is very easy to state that WLS-FM is not performing as well as it should.
 
Thing is, they need to play more newer music and improve their demos (skew younger). I personally am burned out on the 60s songs they still play ad nauseum (which have been played to death for years) and can get my fix of a much wider 60s music playlist from satellite and 'net stations so I'm willing to listen to newer and to me, very enjoyable (70s and beyond) songs on the station if it will increase their chances of survival.
 
DavidEduardo said:
BRNout said:
However, I've caught you underestimating this station before.

When CBS-FM is consistently in the top couple of stations in 25-54 in New York City, The Walrus top 5 in San Diego with a Mexican signal, WOGL third in Philly and KOOL-FM in the top several stations in Phoenix, it is very easy to state that WLS-FM is not performing as well as it should.

But David, you declared stations like that to be dead a couple of years ago. ;)

Before PPM, of course.

Also remember that WDRV and now WILV ("Rewind") cover a lot of the music that 'classic hits' stations play ad nauseum. And we still have a "Jack" that mines the rock-leaning side of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Not to mention that V-103 has a lock on the classic R&B. So there's a lot of (excellent) competition in this market. Given that, I think that WLS-FM holds their own quite well with a relatively cheap format to run.

One thing I'll say in support of the three stations that you cited: at least their presentation is still of the energetic "top 40" personality-drive style and they still draw from a wide range of years and genres. Far too many stations with the 'classic hits' format have lost the personality, jingles and energy and are boring to listen too. And, far too many have stripped out most of the rhythmic music as well.
 
BRNout said:
But David, you declared stations like that to be dead a couple of years ago.

No, I stated that oldies stations were dead, sales-wise. Classic hits is a different thing.

Before PPM, of course.

That's why I made the statement about oldies. I have been studying PPM data for over 8 years now.

Also remember that WDRV and now WILV ("Rewind") cover a lot of the music that 'classic hits' stations play ad nauseum. And we still have a "Jack" that mines the rock-leaning side of the 70s, 80s and 90s. Not to mention that V-103 has a lock on the classic R&B. So there's a lot of (excellent) competition in this market. Given that, I think that WLS-FM holds their own quite well with a relatively cheap format to run.

You mention several good stations, but every market has comparable slicing of the pie, and WLS-FM simply aims a few years to high, demographically, to do as well as others in 25-54.
 
I concure with the idea and knowledge of David.. Classics is a gen-II format of hits and not refered to as Oldies.. That guy is the pro.. You are getting good consulting without payin' the guy... With respect, the key is for us to take off our rose-stained colored shades when we look at the cume, shares and where the money demos make the bigger bucks...
 
BRNout said:
DavidEduardo said:
finallyescaped said:
Being between 6th and 10th 25-54 isn't bad considering they are 60s based. That's a good success story for "real" Oldies. Any other markets have that kind of story? I know in most markets the real Oldies stations are usually suffering to stay out of the 55+ realm.

The average for the first 3 books of 2010 was 9th in 25-54 and 14th in 18-49. When April, May and, soon, June are considered it seems apparent that WLS FM will not be in the top 10 25-54, and in 18-49 will be closer to 20th.

David, they were already 10th in the 25-54 - so it's not that apparent. Now, I'll grant you 2 things:

1) I'm not going to wager in the 18-49, but they've been running in the low teens so your outlook seems a bit pessimistic; and,

2) From what I can tell, baseball on WGN and WSCR seems to take some ears away from WLS-FM during certain dayparts. Ever since the season started, you could see them lose men during those dayparts - however they have remained strong with women.

All in all, the summer may not be their best season. However, I've caught you underestimating this station before.
You are correct BRNout, it is not apparent, it is about distorting the numbers to make a
point, to fit a certain view of oldies stations. These do not fit WLS, the numbers prove it. Based
on the numbers, there is no way to say that WLS will not be in the top ten 25-54 in June. If this
were stated as an opinion, that would be one thing, however to state this as a fact, when it is not
is very disingenuous.

I made this point on the 50/60's board. Please take note of the difference in the numbers that were
posted here and the real numbers, posted in the following thread.


http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=170435.0
 
TR1992 said:
You are correct BRNout, it is not apparent, it is about distorting the numbers to make a
point, to fit a certain view of oldies stations. These do not fit WLS, the numbers prove it. Based
on the numbers, there is no way to say that WLS will not be in the top ten 25-54 in June. If this
were stated as an opinion, that would be one thing, however to state this as a fact, when it is not
is very disingenuous.

Look at the facts... WLS FM has been on a downtrend in 25-54 in both April and May. Based on the information available, it looks like June will not be unlike May, and with other moves in the market, could place the station aound 12th to 13th.

I made this point on the 50/60's board. Please take note of the difference in the numbers that were
posted here and the real numbers, posted in the following thread.

That would be the thread where you posted that a station with around 10% Black listenership is "urban" and where you talked about the PPM "trends" I assume? The fact is that there is a two month downtrending by WLS-FM in 25-54.

You are looking exclusively at rank, but in the enormously tight compression world of PPM, it's necessary to look at the share because the differences between 10th and 20th rank position in Chicago is, typically, just 0.4 share points... which is well within the margin of error of the survey itself.

If you look at ratings, there are 10 to 14 stations typically with a 0.4 rating in the market, all tied on the metric that agencies first look at when avaluating cost per point... meaning that outside of the first 7 or 8 stations, there are no clear winners and a lot of comparably rated ones compteing with the same rating.
 
Once again, using "words" such as "trends" and "urban" to change the subject of WLS again......

When a word like "trends" is used by me, you know what I'm speaking of. These are terms that
are still used in many markets, and I'm used to using, so that is just a term that rolls off my
tongue. Using that to make yourself look good? I hope it makes you very happy......

The "textbook" definition for WBBM is not "urban", but the textbook definition for "urban" is
a way of calling a station "a black station" right Mr. Gleason? I suppose that is the way it is,
it is also the reason radio is in the shape it's in. Everything and everyone has to be lumped
into a group to suit your nose in your textbook perception of the world. WBBM is in an "urban"
city correct? Maybe to suits like you and the big bad "trade mags" you have to use a different
term.

You are always giving us your "textbook facts" about everything in radio. That along with consolidation
has done our medium a lot of good hasn't it?

I live in the real world and see what is happening, maybe you should get your nose out of
whatever handbook or trade publication it might currently be stuck in, and admit you will
say anything and to everything to discredit anyone who disagrees with you or make yourself
feel high and mighty, once again, knock yourself out. I guess we all have are ways of feeling
important.........

Here I'll help you out, AM is dead, oldies are dead, and HD is a good "technology."

There in one sentence, I just said what you have been saying on here for years, that was
quick wasn't it? To think it's taken you 8 zillion posts to say what I did in one sentence, amazing
isn't it?

Well have a nice weekend, and lets see what June has to say for WLS, which I must point out
once again, was the real subject here, not WLEY and WBBM.

If I'm wrong I'll eat my words, will you?????
 
TR1992 said:
If I'm wrong I'll eat my words, will you?????

Certainly.

"Wrong," of course, is calling WBBM-FM "urban." Why don't you call the GM, the PD or the GSM of B-96 and ask them how they would react to someone calling the station "urban?" "Urban" is a term that has been used pretty much since "r&b" went out of style to designate a current-based format that is of principal appeal to African Americans. Similarly, "urban AC" means a more gold based and older appealing format also targeted principaly at African Americans.

At roughly 10% Black listenership, B-96 is not "urban" by any measure or standard used in the radio industry or the music business. You can write about "urban areas" all you want, but in radio and music, the term has a very well defined meaning and has for decades.

There are similarly conclusive arguments about "trends" not being a PPM term (although book to book trending is a useful term and one that shows WLS on a downtrend for several books).

Returning now to our regularly scheduled program: WLS FM has the same rating as the #15 or #19 or #12 station... the shares are so compressed from 10th to 20th that all stations in that group have some sales point to make, but none is an automatic buy and all have to fight for revenue.

hen you are in the top 5, paticularly if you have good 25-34 and 35-44 as several of the top ranked stations do, or if you have decent male spectrum demos, like the leading sports station does, then you get consideration for nearly everything. Much depends on how "deep" a buy goes, but there are few buys that even go 10 deep in the target demo...
 
DavidEduardo said:
TR1992 said:
If I'm wrong I'll eat my words, will you?????

Certainly.

"Wrong," of course, is calling WBBM-FM "urban." Why don't you call the GM, the PD or the GSM of B-96 and ask them how they would react to someone calling the station "urban?" "Urban" is a term that has been used pretty much since "r&b" went out of style to designate a current-based format that is of principal appeal to African Americans. Similarly, "urban AC" means a more gold based and older appealing format also targeted principaly at African Americans.

At roughly 10% Black listenership, B-96 is not "urban" by any measure or standard used in the radio industry or the music business. You can write about "urban areas" all you want, but in radio and music, the term has a very well defined meaning and has for decades.

There are similarly conclusive arguments about "trends" not being a PPM term (although book to book trending is a useful term and one that shows WLS on a downtrend for several books).

Returning now to our regularly scheduled program: WLS FM has the same rating as the #15 or #19 or #12 station... the shares are so compressed from 10th to 20th that all stations in that group have some sales point to make, but none is an automatic buy and all have to fight for revenue.

hen you are in the top 5, paticularly if you have good 25-34 and 35-44 as several of the top ranked stations do, or if you have decent male spectrum demos, like the leading sports station does, then you get consideration for nearly everything. Much depends on how "deep" a buy goes, but there are few buys that even go 10 deep in the target demo...
I guess I'm the only one that feels that B 96 is "urban"?????

www.radioblack.com/Illinois.html

Note that this is an African American website and they list WBBM FM in the same words that they
describe WGCI and WPWX. You can also google "black radio Chicago" and guess what station pops
up before GCI and Power 92? Yes that's right WBBM FM. I guess I'm not the only person that perceives
B 96 in this way. Oh wait your books say differently, so to hell with reality.

I'm glad you'll be willing to eat your words, I hope your getting hungry!

Just on a side note, I thought I'd help you with your gazilinth post.

1) Tell the other person there wrong.

2) Tell them oldies are dead

3) Remind them again that AM is dead.

4) Tell them what a success HD radio is, and how in your world it causes no interference
to adjacent channels, on AM or FM

5) (and this one is very important) Tell them there wrong again :D
 
TR1992 said:
[I guess I'm the only one that feels that B 96 is "urban"?????

www.radioblack.com/Illinois.html

Note that this is an African American website and they list WBBM FM in the same words that they
describe WGCI and WPWX.

The cited website is, indeed, bizarre. For some reason, they believe that any station playing, in their opinion, "Black" music is a "Black" radio station.

Of course, the flip answer would be that in the 60's, CKLW and its big dose of Motown would be considered Black by that criteria.

For some reason, they liste a couple of stations in Haiti as being "Black" yet nearly 100% of the population is Afroantillian; this forms the basis for a conclusion that the website interprets the playing of music that has some element of "Blackness" to it as being at the core of their determination, and not whether a station appeals to a Black audience.

Again, the key element is not whether a station plays music by Black artists (whether they be African American, Afroantillean or whatever) but who the station appeals to. At around 10% Black listenership, 30% Hispanic listenership and 60% "other" (Arbitron's term for non-ethnic white), WBBM-FM is not a Black radio station, and is not an urban radio station.

There have been Black artists on non-Black specificly targeted radio stations going back to Ella Fitzgerald, Fats Domino, Louis Armstrong, the Platters, many of not all the do-wop groups, Little Richard, etc., etc. Playing hit songs that happen to be hip hop songs does not make a station uban any more than playing lots of Motown songs in the 60's on a Top 40 station did.

When you look at the inclusion of pop artists ranging from Lady Gaga to decidedly crossover artists like Black Eyed Peas on B-96, you can tell the station is a rhythmic CHR, just like many other major market CHR stations. In fact, if you look at the hip hop they play, you see it is "hip pop" or crossover material... one of the key elements of CHR back to the top 40 days when picking the best from a variety of genres made the format what it is.

You can also google "black radio Chicago" and guess what station pops
up before GCI and Power 92? Yes that's right WBBM FM. I guess I'm not the only person that perceives B 96 in this way. Oh wait your books say differently, so to hell with reality.

The listeners are, at the end of the discussion, the ones who tell us what a station is and is not. An average of a bit less than 3% of Chicago Blacks listen to WBBM-FM one hour or more a week... eliminating with the listening requirement most of those in the PPM world who we exposed to but did not pick the (any) station. We're talking about a station that has less than half the Black appeal that WBBM AM does!

Yes, these are "figures" in part and a bit of CHR and music radio history on the other hand. But the figures show that B-96 has very, very limited Black listener appeal while Black music has enormous appeal across ages and ethnicities and is at the very core of the musical taste of a huge percentage of Americans who don't happen to be Black. And that is a wonderful thing.
 
DavidEduardo said:
TR1992 said:
[I guess I'm the only one that feels that B 96 is "urban"?????

www.radioblack.com/Illinois.html

Note that this is an African American website and they list WBBM FM in the same words that they
describe WGCI and WPWX.

The cited website is, indeed, bizarre. For some reason, they believe that any station playing, in their opinion, "Black" music is a "Black" radio station.

Of course, the flip answer would be that in the 60's, CKLW and its big dose of Motown would be considered Black by that criteria.

For some reason, they liste a couple of stations in Haiti as being "Black" yet nearly 100% of the population is Afroantillian; this forms the basis for a conclusion that the website interprets the playing of music that has some element of "Blackness" to it as being at the core of their determination, and not whether a station appeals to a Black audience.

Again, the key element is not whether a station plays music by Black artists (whether they be African American, Afroantillean or whatever) but who the station appeals to. At around 10% Black listenership, 30% Hispanic listenership and 60% "other" (Arbitron's term for non-ethnic white), WBBM-FM is not a Black radio station, and is not an urban radio station.

There have been Black artists on non-Black specificly targeted radio stations going back to Ella Fitzgerald, Fats Domino, Louis Armstrong, the Platters, many of not all the do-wop groups, Little Richard, etc., etc. Playing hit songs that happen to be hip hop songs does not make a station uban any more than playing lots of Motown songs in the 60's on a Top 40 station did.

When you look at the inclusion of pop artists ranging from Lady Gaga to decidedly crossover artists like Black Eyed Peas on B-96, you can tell the station is a rhythmic CHR, just like many other major market CHR stations. In fact, if you look at the hip hop they play, you see it is "hip pop" or crossover material... one of the key elements of CHR back to the top 40 days when picking the best from a variety of genres made the format what it is.

You can also google "black radio Chicago" and guess what station pops
up before GCI and Power 92? Yes that's right WBBM FM. I guess I'm not the only person that perceives B 96 in this way. Oh wait your books say differently, so to hell with reality.

The listeners are, at the end of the discussion, the ones who tell us what a station is and is not. An average of a bit less than 3% of Chicago Blacks listen to WBBM-FM one hour or more a week... eliminating with the listening requirement most of those in the PPM world who we exposed to but did not pick the (any) station. We're talking about a station that has less than half the Black appeal that WBBM AM does!

Yes, these are "figures" in part and a bit of CHR and music radio history on the other hand. But the figures show that B-96 has very, very limited Black listener appeal while Black music has enormous appeal across ages and ethnicities and is at the very core of the musical taste of a huge percentage of Americans who don't happen to be Black. And that is a wonderful thing.
You do make some good points about B96, I just looked at the numbers for their African-American
and Hispanic audience, and have to admit they are a lot lower than I would have thought they were.

I know I get a little passionate when posting :), and sometimes I may get a little too personal. I really
come off, after re reading a couple of my posts, as just a little snarly. I always like a good
heated discussion about radio, and David you are definitely a formidable opponent.

I don't like to attack people personally, and I've done that too you a little too much. For that I would
like to apologize.

We are two different people, with two different way's of seeing things. I know you know a lot
about the biz and I looked through your website and I really like it, you must of put a lot of time
into it.

All the best
TR1992
 
TR1992 said:
We are two different people, with two different way's of seeing things. I know you know a lot
about the biz and I looked through your website and I really like it, you must of put a lot of time
into it.

Thank you for those comments. One of the fun things about participating here is that very often I find I have more in agreement with those I get into discussions that would seem apparent. Passion for radio takes many forms... and anyone who read this thread can see that.

What I noticed recently is that CHRs have become almost universally more hip hop flavored, and you pointed that out. The really odd thing is that a lot of the songs are really crossovers even to the extent of not getting a lot of urban play... what an amazingly cyclical format this has been over the last five or six decades!
 
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