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WLS AM 890 running HD w/8khz analog?

T

Tom Wells

Well, my car radio has a shorted output transistor or output wires, so it sounds awful on its own right now,
but WLS AM is now running IBOC, and it seems that maybe they are using a mode allowing the higher freq analog mod.
When they tested it a few weeks ago, this was not the case. they were chopped at 5khz, like all other HD AMs I've heard.

Despite the hiss, they have enough definition to better distinguish easily misunderstood syllables.

But still not nearly as well as they sounded only last month in full analog.
Can anyone else in Chicago or region confirm this?
Does the stereo come back on at night?
 
I have to say that it sounds pretty sharp during the day compared to WSCR, WGN, WBBM and WVON. I no longer get C-QUAM on WLS at night, and I know my radio works because I still get it on WHO Des Moines at night.
 
Now if only I could get John 'Records' Landecker in HD! "Boogie Check, Boogie Check, OOOH, AHHHH!"
 
Mike Walker said:
Now if only I could get John 'Records' Landecker in HD! "Boogie Check, Boogie Check, OOOH, AHHHH!"
Click to expand...
I think I may have a pre-WLS Landecker aircheck, somewhere. Perhaps I'll dig it up, and post it somewhere.

By the way, using 8kHz for the analog portion of the signal on AM, would leave little room (very low bitrate - low-fi) for the HD digital part of the signal. WLS HD would sound like AM with encoding artifacts, or worse.
You can't get something for nothing, even with HD, although HD supporters keep claiming, trying, promoting, and peddling.
 
Len14043 said:
Here is an interesting link which discusses bandwidth on AM.

http://beradio.com/currents/radio_currents_092704/
Click to expand...
To quote, briefly:
Comments have already risen regarding this action. Some comments received at Radio magazine don't agree with Littlejohn's assessment of an unnoticeable impact from the reduced audio bandwidth. Other comments don't believe the claim that the move is irrelevant to the HD Radio analog signal requirements, and that this is one way to make analog AM sound worse so that AM IBOC will show a marked audio improvement over analog.

There are merits to what Littlejohn proposes, but as he pointed out, the idea is not really a new one. It will cause some stir for a few days and maybe weeks, but the buzz will likely die down soon.
Click to expand...
Instead, the buzz has gotten much worse since 2004.
Oh, I forgot again. HD Radio just got started. Sorry.
 
Two or three years in existance is "just getting started". Radios just came on the market the 2nd half of last year. Still most stations don't have HD radios in-house to monitor their own signals!
 
Mike Walker said:
Two or three years in existance is "just getting started". Radios just came on the market the 2nd half of last year. Still most stations don't have HD radios in-house to monitor their own signals!
Click to expand...

Look at the pathetic number of consumer votes and/or reviews for HD radios:

Circuit City's Boston Acoustics Recepter Radio HD: 460 votes in 4 months

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Cust.../order/D/rpem/ccd/productDetailReview.do#tabs

Amazon's Boston Acoustics Recepter Radio HD: 3,926th in electronic sales rankings.

http://www.amazon.com/Boston-Acoust...r_1/102-1715314-7993763?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

Both of these retailers, were a main focus of the 2006 $200,000,000 HD Radio ad campaign.
 
The LAST thing WLS needs right now is something else to sap away at its coverage - it was already a shell of its former powerhouse signal. And why in the world would a talk station even want 8 kHz bandwidth - let alone HD? This is absolutely ridiculous - to go from rich fidelity of wide bandwidth analog to streaming quality digital - on a talk station. What a joke. But then, I haven't listened since they quit playing music. Talk bores me - as it does everybody who remembers the glory days of WLS.
 
Bruce, I traveled throughout the midwest for years. The daytime signal for WLS has not changed in 30 years. At night, the signal now sounds horrible, not because something is wrong with WLS, but due to the co-channel interference from stations in Mexico and stations in the US that now operate at night. They are still audible in St. Louis and Cincinnati during the day. With respect to coverage loss, 3 AM stations in Cincinnati run IBOC and none have experienced any coverage loss. Distant stations from me such as WHAS (Louisville) and WIBC (Indianapolis) now run IBOC and sound the same now as before.
I am not a strong advocate of AM IBOC and acknowledge the problems associated with it, but coverage loss is not one of them. However, I'll concede that coverage loss can occur due due to ajacient channel interference, but I don't believe you were referring to that.
 
I have some pretty good evidence for loss of coverage on two of the Dallas stations that coverted. It is daytime coverage out in the fringes - noticeably weaker. There never was a coverage loss on those stations when they were C-Quam.

As for WLS coverage, I am only one of dozens of people who have reported loss of nighttime coverage - and it is not just due to the other 890s that are now on the air. There was a curious phenomenon associated with a nearby 50kW station - the old KOMA. They were having major coverage problems in Dallas - then when they switched to talk, all of the sudden they were booming in again. What had happened was their engineer had increased the modulation level, which had languished for years. So that tells me the carrier was just as strong as ever, they were just lapsing in the audio chain. Perhaps - that is what has happened to WLS. Or perhaps it is as speculated by other WLS watchers - the new subdivisions near the tower site have decreased ground conductivity.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
I have some pretty good evidence for loss of coverage on two of the Dallas stations that coverted. It is daytime coverage out in the fringes - noticeably weaker. There never was a coverage loss on those stations when they were C-Quam.

As for WLS coverage, I am only one of dozens of people who have reported loss of nighttime coverage - and it is not just due to the other 890s that are now on the air. There was a curious phenomenon associated with a nearby 50kW station - the old KOMA. They were having major coverage problems in Dallas - then when they switched to talk, all of the sudden they were booming in again. What had happened was their engineer had increased the modulation level, which had languished for years. So that tells me the carrier was just as strong as ever, they were just lapsing in the audio chain. Perhaps - that is what has happened to WLS. Or perhaps it is as speculated by other WLS watchers - the new subdivisions near the tower site have decreased ground conductivity.
Click to expand...
Additional, new, ground clutter near the transmitter site can be a problem for AM stations.
 
Oh 700, you could see a rainbow and say "look at all those damn clouds". The Boston sold about as well as ANY high end table radio (think the Bose Wave Radio is among the top 50 consumer electronics products?) The real action, naturally, is at the affordable end of the spectrum. First the Accurian (there are quite a few reviews of THAT at Radio Shack's website), then the Sangean tuner and table radio.

To the subject at hand, I think it's time to search for an alternative plan for AM. I also doubt that a digital signal combined with 8khz analog audio will sound very good. In fact, in the metro area I'd almost guarantee the analog would sound better on a good radio.
 
Mike Walker said:
Oh 700, you could see a rainbow and say "look at all those damn clouds". The Boston sold about as well as ANY high end table radio (think the Bose Wave Radio is among the top 50 consumer electronics products?) The real action, naturally, is at the affordable end of the spectrum. First the Accurian (there are quite a few reviews of THAT at Radio Shack's website), then the Sangean tuner and table radio.

To the subject at hand, I think it's time to search for an alternative plan for AM. I also doubt that a digital signal combined with 8khz analog audio will sound very good. In fact, in the metro area I'd almost guarantee the analog would sound better on a good radio.
Click to expand...

I just read, on the other two sites, that if sales of the Sangean HDR-1 do not continue, at the current pace, the development of the Sangean HDR-2 is in jeopardy - Sangean is worried, that just audiophiles/radio-geeks are mainly buying HD radios ! :D
 
Mike Walker said:
Oh 700, you could see a rainbow and say "look at all those damn clouds". The Boston sold about as well as ANY high end table radio (think the Bose Wave Radio is among the top 50 consumer electronics products?) The real action, naturally, is at the affordable end of the spectrum. First the Accurian (there are quite a few reviews of THAT at Radio Shack's website), then the Sangean tuner and table radio.

To the subject at hand, I think it's time to search for an alternative plan for AM. I also doubt that a digital signal combined with 8khz analog audio will sound very good. In fact, in the metro area I'd almost guarantee the analog would sound better on a good radio.
Click to expand...

Sorry, moved to new thread...
 
700WLW said:
Mike Walker said:
Oh 700, you could see a rainbow and say "look at all those damn clouds". The Boston sold about as well as ANY high end table radio (think the Bose Wave Radio is among the top 50 consumer electronics products?) The real action, naturally, is at the affordable end of the spectrum. First the Accurian (there are quite a few reviews of THAT at Radio Shack's website), then the Sangean tuner and table radio.

To the subject at hand, I think it's time to search for an alternative plan for AM. I also doubt that a digital signal combined with 8khz analog audio will sound very good. In fact, in the metro area I'd almost guarantee the analog would sound better on a good radio.
Click to expand...

I just read, on the other two sites, that if sales of the Sangean HDR-1 do not continue, at the current pace, the development of the Sangean HDR-2 is in jeopardy - Sangean is worried, that just audiophiles/radio-geeks are mainly buying HD radios ! :D
Click to expand...

"Cambridge Soundworks 850HD"

http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=850HD

And now, the delivery date for the Cambridge Soundworks 850HD, has gone from 3-10-07 to, "Delivery Unknown At This Time" - what's up Doc ? :D
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
There was a curious phenomenon associated with a nearby 50kW station - the old KOMA. They were having major coverage problems in Dallas - then when they switched to talk, all of the sudden they were booming in again. What had happened was their engineer had increased the modulation level, which had languished for years. So that tells me the carrier was just as strong as ever, they were just lapsing in the audio chain.
Click to expand...

... OPTIMOD 9200. It went online a bit before talk, actually. The pattern might have been adjusted a bit to let out more in the direction of Dallas also. As you're probably aware, 1520 OKC is almost a critical pattern. The points can be in, but some areas the signal can be down quite a bit. 1520 has been quite a fight to stay legal over the years due to re-radiation issues in the area. Their engineering guys from what I hear have been able, for the most part, to keep it straight for several years now (many years before it certainly WASN'T in!) which is no simple task.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
Or perhaps it is as speculated by other WLS watchers - the new subdivisions near the tower site have decreased ground conductivity.
Click to expand...

The subdivisions are generally a half mile or more east of the tower at US-45 and I-80 in Tinley Park. However, there are hotels immediately west of the property owned by WLS. The tower can't be more than 1/8 mile from the new Hilton hotel, which I believe is four stories tall. This might just be an urban myth or made-up story, I cannot confirm it, but I heard from a guy "who heard from a guy, yada, yada" that iron workers were occasionally getting RF zaps and seeing/hearing arcs as they were fastening girders for the hotel. Regardless of that story, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the new ironwork around the area (Hilton, Texas Roadhouse, etc.) is sapping some signal... However, WLS's 500ft tower has a high center of radiation, and probably wouldn't radiate more than a percent of total signal into a 4-story building an eighth of a mile away.
 
I can confirm that ANY conductive elements in the near field of such an installation will "put cowlicks" into ground impedances, and since these were grounded during installation, it's perfectly beleivable that some small arcing occurred.

I have repaired the car radio, one ECG153 died for no apparent reason...and WLS is running the same 5kc analog as all other IBOCS.

It is especially painful to lose WLS as a listening choice, as I have been listener since 1963, and until Feb xx of this year, I considered them
to be the GOLD standard of what fine audio should be like.

They were "bucketsfull", solid and crisp, loud yet spacious.

Now it's all gone. They sound like a VERY strong rimshot running a show over an old unbalanced telco line, like a college football game sounded in 1975.

They leave the brickwall on at night, too.

And I'll listen tonight to see if they lopped off the 100-125% pos modulation.
They have have in the dytime, and all the punch is gone.

If they're going to do this, I wish they'd gut the bottom end of the audio to acheive balance, they're a mushbox now.
 
That is a fine new slogan for the next HD radio promotion:
"HD radio. Turns Millions of fine analog radios into buzzing, hissing, mushboxes, in just seconds!"
 
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