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WLTJ Pittsburgh, HD 4

I'm the Chief Engineer for WLTJ in Pittsburgh PA, and I upgraded my HD Importer/Exporter/Exciter to the latest release of iBiquity's Firmware/Software which gave me HD 4, I have to say I hear a noticable improvement in audio quality across the whole HD bandwidth, yes...I know what encoders and what format of AAC+ they are using, and HD-4 is in the P3 or extended hybrid and the quality of that is still better than Satellite Radio, the rest of my HD Channels are 32kbps across the board, 32kbps for HD1, HD2, HD3 and 24kbps for HD4, I have to say if more engineers upgrade their HD software to the latest release and spend more than 3 minutes time on the audio processing for each sub channel, HD Radio (for FM) might just make it.

I am very pleased that I did the upgrade, and if Toyota and others get the radio's out there, maybe the quality of this new release will make it paletable for the new listener, of course the music format is very important too.

My HD's for WLTJ are
HD2 = Urban AC & Classic R&B
HD3 = Rockin' Q
HD4 = YinzRadio (the music is all about Pittsburgh from local artists and songs involving, or about Pittsburgh

I am streaming some of my HD's

http://wewillrockq.com (HD3)

http://qinthecity.com (HD2)
 
How does upgrading the encoder at the station improve the quality at the listener's receiver? Is it just that it does better at encoding the audio in the same codec that has been in the HD radios from the beginning? Otherwise, wouldn't an upgrade to the transmitter firmware just break the older HD receivers? Or is there some way for the firmware in the receivers to upgrade themselves over-the-air?
 
FTL_Ian said:
How does upgrading the encoder at the station improve the quality at the listener's receiver? Is it just that it does better at encoding the audio in the same codec that has been in the HD radios from the beginning? Otherwise, wouldn't an upgrade to the transmitter firmware just break the older HD receivers? Or is there some way for the firmware in the receivers to upgrade themselves over-the-air?

as like driver updates for sound cards, video cards in your computer. its a modification and "sometimes" it makes a improvement over the older drivers is a good thing and the quality of the encoder has been imporved and that is passed onto the decoder. so older radios will have no problems with the upgrade

the broadcaster doesn't push any updates of the firmware to HD radios.

HD Radios have been designed with modifications in mind, like multi-casting. I just added HD4 and every HD radio I use have no problems receiving that new channel, I have a Boston Acoustic HD Receiver from 5 years ago and it received the HD 4 with no problems
 
RadioEngnr said:
FTL_Ian said:
How does upgrading the encoder at the station improve the quality at the listener's receiver? Is it just that it does better at encoding the audio in the same codec that has been in the HD radios from the beginning? Otherwise, wouldn't an upgrade to the transmitter firmware just break the older HD receivers? Or is there some way for the firmware in the receivers to upgrade themselves over-the-air?

as like driver updates for sound cards, video cards in your computer. its a modification and "sometimes" it makes a improvement over the older drivers is a good thing and the quality of the encoder has been imporved and that is passed onto the decoder. so older radios will have no problems with the upgrade

the broadcaster doesn't push any updates of the firmware to HD radios.

HD Radios have been designed with modifications in mind, like multi-casting. I just added HD4 and every HD radio I use have no problems receiving that new channel, I have a Boston Acoustic HD Receiver from 5 years ago and it received the HD 4 with no problems

How far away from the towers are you receiving your HD 4 from? What kind of antenna are you using?
 
Are those streams the actual HD audio that we'd hear on our receivers? I'd like to hear how those HD2/3/4 sound with the new software.

Hopefully it'll also improve reliability of the encoder so it won't fail so much (judging by how often some of our local stations stop broadcasting HD, or have other problems like wrong song title/display info, etc.)
 
How far away from the towers are you receiving your HD 4 from? What kind of antenna are you using?

I live in Wheeling, WV and I drive 62 miles each way to work and I can get a lock on HD 1,2,3 & 4 while I'm still in WV driving to Pittsburgh at that point I am 45 miles from the tower, but I get a solid lock 35 miles away from the Towers

Question about Antenna's I'm 99.9% sure you want to know about my car receiving antenna, but just in case your askling about my FM/HD Broadcast Antenna My HD system is a complete stand alone system, with a hybrid 4-bay panel located on the top of WPGH's Tower. I had it custom designed by SWR in Pennsylvania

I drive a 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid (140k miles) with a after market Kennwood Head Unit with the HD Radio Unit, I had to replace the factory car antenna with a good ole' 31" Metra Antennaworks 44-GM92B I drilled into my driver side front fender and mount the antenna there and its been great for my DX AM and FM HD needs

Car Antenna Info
http://www.amazon.com/Metra-Antenna...YOGW/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1294449211&sr=8-9
 
Are those streams the actual HD audio that we'd hear on our receivers?
Thats not a Off the Air monitor your hearing on the stream, its being pushed off of the audio server using edcast
But...I am streaming at 32kbps in AAC+ (as close to the AAC+ encoder of the HD as I can get) and you are hearing the auctual audio processing that I am using on the HD Air Chain, so it s real close Off Air Monitor

I'd like to hear how those HD2/3/4 sound with the new software
I listened all the way home tonight, and I am very pleased with the sound quality (in a car)

Hopefully it'll also improve reliability of the encoder so it won't fail so much (judging by how often some of our local stations stop broadcasting HD, or have other problems like wrong song title/display info, etc.)
Some Stations elect to stop broadcasting in HD for many reasons, all of which I can agree on
1) equipment needs repaired or replaced, and I for one knows what its like to explain to the boss that I need $1,000's of dollars to repair something that maybe 2% of the market can actually listen to
2) HD is high maintanence (90% computers) and 5 of them are WinXP machines, some radio stations don't have the man power or a full time Engineer to maintain it and it helps if your a computer guy with networking experience.
3) and I am guilty of this, I will fix it (HD) when someone complains that they cant receive it.

Song Artist and Title S&T or (PAD) is a different system, I use a seperate computer to pull the S&T from my audio servers and then Push the S&T to the Exporter for the HD1 S&T, and the Exporter for the HD2,3 & 4 S&T, this has never locked up on me in the 6 years I been broadcasting in HD
 
RadioEngnr said:
I'm the Chief Engineer for WLTJ in Pittsburgh PA, and ... I know what encoders and what format of AAC+ they are using...

Pray tell!

I'm unaware of any authoritative documentation that HDC and AAC+ are related. Can you provide a reference, please?
 
RadioEngnr said:
I'm the Chief Engineer for WLTJ in Pittsburgh PA, and I upgraded my HD Importer/Exporter/Exciter to the latest release of iBiquity's Firmware/Software which gave me HD 4, I have to say I hear a noticable improvement in audio quality across the whole HD bandwidth, yes...I know what encoders and what format of AAC+ they are using, and HD-4 is in the P3 or extended hybrid and the quality of that is still better than Satellite Radio, the rest of my HD Channels are 32kbps across the board, 32kbps for HD1, HD2, HD3 and 24kbps for HD4, I have to say if more engineers upgrade their HD software to the latest release and spend more than 3 minutes time on the audio processing for each sub channel, HD Radio (for FM) might just make it.

I am very pleased that I did the upgrade, and if Toyota and others get the radio's out there, maybe the quality of this new release will make it paletable for the new listener, of course the music format is very important too.

My HD's for WLTJ are
HD2 = Urban AC & Classic R&B
HD3 = Rockin' Q
HD4 = YinzRadio (the music is all about Pittsburgh from local artists and songs involving, or about Pittsburgh

I am streaming some of my HD's

http://wewillrockq.com (HD3)

http://qinthecity.com (HD2)

Nice!

I actually hadn't noticed any sonic differences when I upgraded mine, but I run in a 48/48 configuration anyway so the audio has always been good.

What I have noticed is the synchronization for analog and HD1 have been rock solid where it used to wander a bit if the T1 to the sites carrying the data suffered even a momentary outage.

Like you, I've been very pleased with the upgrade and have deployed it using platforms from two different manufacturers.
 
RadioEngnr said:
Song Artist and Title S&T or (PAD) is a different system, I use a seperate computer to pull the S&T from my audio servers and then Push the S&T to the Exporter for the HD1 S&T, and the Exporter for the HD2,3 & 4 S&T, this has never locked up on me in the 6 years I been broadcasting in HD

Consider yourself lucky, then. The stations in my smaller market are a mess, PAD-wise. For example, the rock station's HD-1 has been stuck on Red Hot Chili Peppers now for weeks, while the HD-2 is OK. The rhythmic AC station's HD-1 actually reads something like "Wrgv hd-2 espn radio" while the HD-2 that's ESPN says it's playing a Pink song, lol. I've noticed the same problem in other markets in the past. I figured it was a common failure point.

Anyway, kudos to you for caring about your station's sound, even if only 2% of the audience can hear it.
 
RadioEngnr said:
I'm the Chief Engineer for WLTJ in Pittsburgh PA, and I upgraded my HD Importer/Exporter/Exciter to the latest release of iBiquity's Firmware/Software which gave me HD 4, I have to say I hear a noticable improvement in audio quality across the whole HD bandwidth, yes...I know what encoders and what format of AAC+ they are using, and HD-4 is in the P3 or extended hybrid and the quality of that is still better than Satellite Radio, the rest of my HD Channels are 32kbps across the board, 32kbps for HD1, HD2, HD3 and 24kbps for HD4, I have to say if more engineers upgrade their HD software to the latest release and spend more than 3 minutes time on the audio processing for each sub channel, HD Radio (for FM) might just make it.

There was a recent discussion on one of the boards I frequent (maybe this one) about the benefits of extending the upper audio frequency limit of FM from 15 kHz to 20 kHz. I would be interested to know if the new firmware/software release permits full response to 20 kHz when operating in the 32kbps mode.

If the codec's output data rate is only 32 kHz, this would not even meet the Nyquist theoretical sample rate for any frequencies above 16 kHz, which means that, on average, the sampling resolution is less than 1 bit and the codec relies on assumptions about the spectral composition between 15 and 20 kHz -- in other words, the high end is being faked. This is one reason I cringe when I hear the claims about HD Radio's "dramatically better audio quality".
 
Nick said:
You can't increase 15-20 kHz because of the stereo pilot.

You can on the digital feed.

I would hope the spectral replication is better here than it is with satellite radio's technology. Especially Sirius, their "high end" is the worst. It doesn't even sound close to natural. I don't know how anyone can stand it. Sometimes it's a curse to have Good Ears. ;)
 
Play Freebird said:
If the codec's output data rate is only 32 kHz, this would not even meet the Nyquist theoretical sample rate for any frequencies above 16 kHz, which means that, on average, the sampling resolution is less than 1 bit and the codec relies on assumptions about the spectral composition between 15 and 20 kHz -- in other words, the high end is being faked. This is one reason I cringe when I hear the claims about HD Radio's "dramatically better audio quality".

While I have no first-hand knowledge of the codec being used, there is most likely some buffering involved, which would allow accurate reproduction of a high frequency if it's the only thing there. Sampling rates and bit depth provide the resolution, but the algorithm determines how much to throw away. Practically speaking, however, most HD stations have a strange sounding high-end.

I have to admit that I'm really curious as to what WLTJ sounds like for real. I put the web stream on and it sounds pretty good for a 32k stream. The high end is rolled off just enough to keep the artifacts down, and it's pretty obvious that the source material (on the songs I've heard so far) was encoded well. But they're playing "I'm your Captain" by Grand Funk right now and a portion of the drums are too quiet to make it above the threshold - they're just missing. It sounds pretty strange. Every now and then you get something that really shows off the warts present in audio coding algorithms.

Dave B.
 
"Dr." Carter may know a thing or two about spending tens of thousands on overpriced hi-fi gear, but he apparently knows nothing about the limitations of FM broadcasting or what little spectrum iBiquity or anyone else has to work with in trying an IBOC digital system.

Here's a two-fer of misinformation:

"It is licensed by the FTC to be broadcast at 1% of the power of the analog signal. In theory it is supposed to be transparent to the listener of the analog signal. However in cars at the limits of range, the digital signal adds a spit, spit artifact to the analog FM sound as you progress."

I'll get the FTC right on the 'spit spit' sound just as soon as they're done prosecuting someone for importing Chinese fraudulent Gucci purses! ;D

The end summary jives with my observations, and ranks the analog FM as the best sounding, followed by a 128 kbps mp3 internet stream, then HD, then "Sirius XM on DirecTV". He also picked out the lack of a center presence that colors the audio, which I notice when I'm wearing headphones. (Certain sounds that should be directly in the dead center of the mix get digitally squirted all over the left/right spectrum. It's most noticeable on speech.)

He claims the unit doesn't decode subchannels, which I find odd since the pictures on Amazon clearly show it receiving WASH-FM-2. And it's odd that he picks on the twinkling watery high end of the mp3 stream but says nothing about the crispy "8 bit in a 16 bit world" hash unique to the HDC codec, or that the high end is even more artificial and strained on HD than an mp3. And he seems to think the sound being piped in via DirecTV is exactly what one would hear on a Sirius system, when in reality it's DirecTV's MPEG2 audio compression being applied to XM's uncompressed audio fed directly from Washington DC (or it was when the review was written, things may be different now.) I can assure the good doctor that Sirius' PAC sounds even worse than HD or mp3s or DirecTV's feed.

This guy is talking about how bad it sounds on things like a "NAD integrated amp and a pair of D'Appolito Thor transmission line loudspeakers", well duh, those are gonna reveal ALL the bad nuances of the audio, FM included. I find it odd that he finds the brick walled 15 kHz response of FM to be wondrous but finds fault so easily in other transmission methods. Yes, analog FM can be analog from end to end and sound fantastic, but it's not audiophile by any stretch of the imagination. It's one set of audio trade-offs versus another when you compare analog FM and digital anything.

I appreciate the man's desire to have the best audio quality possible in his installations, but in doing so FM, much less HD or satellite radio or anything at all off the internet, should have NO place in that system. Classical music on public radio is one of my "go to" things to show off how bad FM sounds. Quiet passages reveal the ever-present hiss that's behind all but the strongest of signals, and if it isn't hiss it's the quiet "chk-chk-chk" of RDS bleed over, or worse yet, quiet squawking from a SCA channel. Yuck! I can't even listen to WBHM in Birmingham anymore. No matter where in the ore-laden hills of Birmingham you are, the station has an honest to god whistle that just never completely goes away. (Yet in the late 90's they turned off the RDS because it was "too noisy".)

In summary, his review is comparing the absolute highest end FM reception equipment to HD, which HD can't help but fall short of (hell it falls so short of a lot of things right now). But who listens to FM on a multi-thousand dollar receiver, on multi-thousand dollar speakers, with an outdoor yagi on top notch 75 ohm coax? Very few. And yes, HD is a step DOWN for those people, unfortunately. But those people are living in a world of one, anyway. The vast majority of FM multicasting is loud, thumping popular music, screaming DJs, obnoxious car commercials and the like. The faults of HD are more or less masked by that sort of content. (And are all but transparent on a really well encoded system with no subchannels.)
 
rtc said:
Here is a review of the Sony HD Tuner;scroll down to the third one by
Dr. Mark Turner.He reviews the tuner quite thoroughly and then dissects
the HD codec from a technical viewpoint.Most of this is over my
head but not for most of you :

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-XDRF1HD-...?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addTwoStar

Unfortunately I cannot feel his report was accurate. For the simple reason that he ranked analog FM above 128 MP3. I do not believe I have ever heard a 128 MP3 stream that sounded worse than analog FM. Ever. I suppose it is possible to listen to a poor quality station, but when compared to major streaming company, such as 181.fm or 1.fm, I cannot help but think that he is terribly wrong.

He can have expensive equipment to the moon. If he only listens to a single sample or few samples of each, his comparison is invalid. There is an analog FM 40 miles from here that sound worse than AM, and it has for years. There are digital stations that sound bad as there are streaming stations. Digital stations very by bitrate, some sound like crap, so do not.
 
jhardis said:
RadioEngnr said:
I'm the Chief Engineer for WLTJ in Pittsburgh PA, and ... I know what encoders and what format of AAC+ they are using...

Pray tell!

I'm unaware of any authoritative documentation that HDC and AAC+ are related. Can you provide a reference, please?

Um, Wikipedia? From the HD Radio page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hd_radio :

"Digital information is transmitted using COFDM with an audio compression algorithm called PAC (Perceptual audio coder). However, audio compressed with this method led to complaints about poor sound quality, so in 2003, iBiquity combined it with an enhancer called SBR (spectral band replication) that improves audio quality at very low bit rates and branded the codec to HDC (High-Definition Coding). (HDC is a proprietary codec based upon, but incompatible with, the MPEG-4 standard HE-AAC)"
 
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