WMMS Winter ratings: Shocking, just shocking

[FightingIrish]

In all my life, after growing up in Cleveland in the 70s and early 80s, and seeing these guys sitting at the top of the heap as arguably the best rock station in all of America, I never thought I'd see the day when they slide all the way down to a two and a half overall share.

I know these guys have made a ton of mistakes in the past two decades or so, including their ill-fated attempt at CHR, the rigging of the Rolling Stone survey, the Howard Stern incident, the firing of the staff and switch to alternative, the Clear Channel takeover, the constant rumors about a format flip and the sterilization and crassification of The Buzzard into a steaming pile of crap.

And now, they got their asses kicked by an AM sports station and "The Fish"!

Unfreakingbelievable!

 

[VODood]

In all my life, after growing up in Cleveland in the 70s and early 80s, and seeing these guys sitting at the top of the heap as arguably the best rock station in all of America, I never thought I'd see the day when they slide all the way down to a two and a half overall share.

I know these guys have made a ton of mistakes in the past two decades or so, including their ill-fated attempt at CHR, the rigging of the Rolling Stone survey, the Howard Stern incident, the firing of the staff and switch to alternative, the Clear Channel takeover, the constant rumors about a format flip and the sterilization and crassification of The Buzzard into a steaming pile of crap.

And now, they got their asses kicked by an AM sports station and "The Fish"!

Unfreakingbelievable!

Is that 12 plus ratings? If so it means nothing. WMMS targets M18-34.


For the record, WMMS "The Next Generation" was good for a 6 share and more. Rated among the top alternative/mainstream stations in the country the two years it was on. Much better than The End.

 

[Rusty Muck]

In all my life, after growing up in Cleveland in the 70s and early 80s, and seeing these guys sitting at the top of the heap as arguably the best rock station in all of America, I never thought I'd see the day when they slide all the way down to a two and a half overall share.

I know these guys have made a ton of mistakes in the past two decades or so, including their ill-fated attempt at CHR, the rigging of the Rolling Stone survey, the Howard Stern incident, the firing of the staff and switch to alternative, the Clear Channel takeover, the constant rumors about a format flip and the sterilization and crassification of The Buzzard into a steaming pile of crap.

And now, they got their asses kicked by an AM sports station and "The Fish"!

Unfreakingbelievable!

Is that 12 plus ratings? If so it means nothing. WMMS targets M18-34.


For the record, WMMS "The Next Generation" was good for a 6 share and more. Rated among the top alternative/mainstream stations in the country the two years it was on. Much better than The End.

I agree with Chuck here. The same 12+ ratings also showed WKNR being ranked identically with WJMO or K-Rock. It's all about the demos, so it's pretty much the so-called "beauty contest" that writers and bloggers et al have stated.

Twentry years ago, that might have been a different story, simply because there wasn't the fractured spectrum of the listening public that we have today. I highly doubt that WMMS will ever attain the ratings it had back in the 80's... or could any other station.

- Nathan Obral

 

[AllMightySting]

I was shocked too when I saw the 12+ numbers. I know they supposedly mean nothing, but still, I've haven't seen them that low for WMMS in a long time. Someone over in the Mighty Blog of Fun stated that WMMS was doing very poorly in their target demos.

Musically to me WMMS sounds great. Nice mix of classic rock and newer rock, and I'm hearing awesome stuff during their WMMS On Shuffle slots. Musically it is not boring radio by any means. Guess not a whole lot of people agree. Personality wise they do sound rather pedestrian. Bob and Tom are completely unappealing to me, I don't care how bad Sean, Cristi, and Hunter were, I can't stand Bob and Tom. Maria sounds awful to me. Rachael Steele makes her sound like an amateur. Maxwell can be funny, but also has more than his share of sub-par moments. Still, I'd much rather listen to him than the 6 hour old O&A show.....or Rover for that matter.

Could the fact that Bo is running multiple radio stations be hurting his ability to effectively program any of them?

By the way, I don't look at the Next Gen Buzzard as a mistake. I grew up listening to that station, as did most of my friends. Great music and great personalities. I think the point that the Buzzard really started to go downhill was when they brought on Liz Wilde to do mornings and sent Brian And Joe to afternoons.

 

[HHH]

Target Demo?

From what I understand, WMMS' highest showing was #5 18-34 in afternoon drive.

They did not make the top ten 18-34 in morning or on weekends.

How the mighty have fallen.

But, to be fair, the big winners in 18-34 these days are 107.9 and Kiss, so this may really indicate more of a trend of youth away from straight rock music than anything else.

 

[VODood]

Target Demo?

From what I understand, WMMS' highest showing was #5 18-34 in afternoon drive.

They did not make the top ten 18-34 in morning or on weekends.

How the mighty have fallen.

But, to be fair, the big winners in 18-34 these days are 107.9 and Kiss, so this may really indicate more of a trend of youth away from straight rock music than anything else.

Bob and Tom won't attract 18-34's as much as they will M25-54 and M42-52.

 

[radioAvenger]

The thing is, there's a lot more rock/pop product than hip-hop on CHR radio these days (whereas it was the complete opposite 3 years ago)

 

[mushroomhead]

WMMS is done. No matter what demo you look at.

What do you expect from a station that is VT'd 3/4 of the day?

 

[joewhlm]

Pure and simple, “WMMS” lost its credibility when it started playing Michael Jackson. Any brand, in any product category, that loses credibility, will never succeed. Yes, they enjoyed a degree of Top 40 success because there was a popular music expansion at the time. But when that expansion subsided the damage to the foundation of the brand name was exposed.

 

[VODood]

Pure and simple, “WMMS” lost its credibility when it started playing Michael Jackson. Any brand, in any product category, that loses credibility, will never succeed. Yes, they enjoyed a degree of Top 40 success because there was a popular music expansion at the time. But when that expansion subsided the damage to the foundation of the brand name was exposed.

WMMS didn't die when it started playing "Thriller" or "Billie Jean". That was 1984. WMMS was alive and well. 1986 WMMS pulled over a 20 share. I know this b/c Denny Sanders told me so.

WMMS was playing top 40 in the mid 80s to get product from record companies. Former PD/OM John Gorman is quoted as saying as much. To beat WGCL and M105 to big shows and to break the latest album he started reporting WMMS as a top 40. Simple as that.

And WMMS "NexGen" Buzzard was top 10 in the country for the format and top 10 in Cleveland as well.

WMMS is getting squeezed on the upper and lower end by CBS' Krock and WNCX. Not too mention the inablility to field, and sustain, a quality morning show.

WMMS was doing extremely well after the "Bury the Buzzard" campaign. Then PD Tony Tilford left for Lexington's DOuble Q... and to get away from the two Ops Managers that CC/Jacor Cleveland had at the time. Tony would later surface at WTUE where's he's been since about 2000-01.

After 2001 WMMS started downhill under former PD Jim Trapp.

 

[pbf1]

Jim Trapp

I wonder if this is the same Jim Trapp who, back in '84, "copyrighted" an format of just 50's and 80's songs (ran at KAMT Tacoma/Seattle, now KKMO).

What a disaster....

 

[FACTman]

Any brand, in any product category, that loses credibility, will never succeed.

Congratulations!! This has to be the most ignorant comment I have seen on this forum in a long, long time. I am not even going to bother ripping into such an uneducated statement. :

 

[HHH]

For the record, according to interviews with Gorman, Sanders and Kid Leo, WMMS had reached a crossroads by 1982, as did most AOR radio.

The choice: Go Classic Rock, or continue to break new bands and performers in a world where a) cross-polination was becoming more common (Eddie Van Halen, Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger recording with Michael Jackson, etc) and b) a whole new rock sound was emerging mainstream which included Tears For Fears, INXS, U2, OMD--most of which were breaking on Top 40, not AOR-- and c) more progressive rhythmic club oriented music was making it big (Prince, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Duran Duran, etc).

WMMS chose to stick with emphasising, and continuing to break, current music, which was their trademark, instead of become a nostalgia station.

They (brilliantly) started reporting to Radio And Records Magazine as a "top 40 station", since (as Gorman once told me: "We played Prince before G98 did and broke him in Cleveland. But we were not allowed to report Prince as an 'add' in the trades because we were designated as an 'AOR' station, and Prince was not considered an AOR act. Neither was half the stuff we were breaking. It was ridiculous. So we changed our industry designation so we could get credit, the concerts and the giveaways. Without that, G98 would have presented all the new acts, and we would be stuck promoting Foghat".

He also told me that some AOR stations attempted to continue to play current music without the cutting edge acts, like WNEW and KMET, but that they simply played the latest Aerosmith and the latest Clapton and the latest J. Geils Band trying to make believe that they were still "current". These stations were completely destroyed within months by a fulltime classic rock on one side and a cutting edge station on the other.

WMMS was smart enough to avoid getting squeezed. They had the best ratings that they ever had from 1982 right through about 1989 with this kind of "Rock CHR" sound. They never elimninated the classics. They just very smartly weaved the hipper singles in between the standard AOR fare. Plus, they always had a bit of a rhythmic sound anyway (AWB, Isley Brothers, Hall and Oats were always big on 'MMS even in the 70s) so this was not that big a stretch.

WMMS collapsed after Kid Leo left, and a parade of PDs tried to turn the clock back with more Foreigner. The ratings died. Gorman made a smart move coming back and returning the station to breaking new music in the 90s, but then the station was sold again and new PD Bob Neumann went back to Foreigner-land, which was stupid since WNCX was doing 100% classic rock by that time.

The station was never the same since then. Dozens of PDs and consultants have tried dozens of approaches and the trademark is now
a complete mishmosh. They have not been a leader--either in breaking music or the ratings--for over ten years now, and the station completely lost a whole generation.

 

[feeball]

The way I see things, WMMS should NEVER trail WXRK...err...WKRI in any ratings book. This is close to being disasterous. It's not there yet but if something does not happen to straighten this problem out, it will be a disaster.

If ratings continue to fall, how much longer before Clear Channel brings their FM News Talk format to the area? I'll put it this way, they got Cleveland Browns Football and if they decide to go the route of WHLO with their poli-talkers, I'm not saying I want to see this happen to WMMS but I would not be surprised.

 

[AllMightySting]

So what exactly does everyone think WMMS can do to turn it around?

Move Maxwell to mornings? - Peronally I think that would be a good move, but from what I understand it'll never happen. Something about Bob & Tom being signed up for a while.

Change their format to an all out, deep track classic rock and try to knock out WNCX? - Go back after the audience that made the station famous back in the 70s. Play a HUGE variety of classic rock tunes, make WNCX's music rotation look as tight as a CHR station. 10 minute long songs....album sides....hell, maybe even Maggot Brain every Saturday night. Certainly would be quite a novelty at first.....but would anyone care after a week?

Change their format to wide open alternative rock, in the style of the west coast alternative rock stations? - Would be kind of similar to what they built their reputation on back in the hey-day....being at the fore-front of new music. A listener intensive, almost free-form rock station with strong personalities and hip imaging. Expose 92.3 as the alt. rock phonies they really are. Certainly would be a breath of fresh air for Cleveland radio.....but would it sell?

Or blow the whole damn thing up and dump the rock and call letters completely? Is WMMS simply doomed to fail so long as it is owned by Clear Channel?

What is everyone's bright ideas?

 

[FACTman]

I sit back and laugh daily at this thread. Everybody, as usual, is freaking out after ONE book.

One.

And 12+ numbers, too. :

"Oh my God. Let's blow up WMMS."
"What format should they be now?"
"Should they go back to what they did in the 70's?" (which made me LMAO because that would be like a CHR station doing that).
"The music has no focus" (which I disagree) and other backseat quarterbacking from people who zero research to support it.

It's Arbitron. And how outdated is their system of collecting data?

Exactly! To use a quote from 'Airplane': "First the dinosaurs came..." and that's about how outdated Arbitron's collection of data is compared to Nielsen, which has updated their collection of data to include same-day DVR playback.

And it's unfortunate because that's what radio in Northeast Ohio has to use. There is nothing else. But when a station has A "bad book" my first inclination is to want to take a look at the sample, diaries returned, etc. used to compile this book.

Not to mention, has it even dawned on some of you that not every format in this town is going to be a home run? :

 

[pbf1]

It's Arbitron. And how outdated is their system of collecting data?

The diary system is already in the process of being replaced.

But like it or not, it's ALL about how you do in Arbitron. And while it may only be one book, the ratings have been heading in the wrong direction; the latest is beyond the breaking point.

Do you honestly think that it's going to suddenly rebound as-is??

 

[FACTman]

The diary system is already in the process of being replaced.

It's "been in the process" for many, many years and until it's completely replaced/overhauled, I'll put more value into them. The results, IMO, are not a "true showing" of who is/is not listening.

Do you honestly think that it's going to suddenly rebound as-is??

"Rebound" according to whom? The constant bashers of WMMS? Those who think you have to be #1 to be something? Please. Personally, I like the way they sound. Obviously their research tells them the same thing as Clear Channel wouldn't just "program anything" on a signal like WMMS.

We definitely do not need another alternative sounding station in this town similar to 92.3.

 

[pbf1]

Those who think you have to be #1 to be something? Please. Personally, I like the way they sound. Obviously their research tells them the same thing as Clear Channel wouldn't just "program anything" on a signal like WMMS.

We definitely do not need another alternative sounding station in this town similar to 92.3.

Never said Cleveland did. But WMMS is clearly in the tank.

 

[jessejames44]

Just a quick, 2 cents thought...

If/when Cleveland goes to a people meter...WMMS might suffer. If you've ever taken a winner call from another station, you know people say "WMMS" as a gut reaction to "what station are you listening to." Used to happen at Majic all the time (it was either that or they'd say "M105"). Arbitron diaries often say "92.3, WMMS."

WMMS just kinda means "radio" in Cleveland. Folks who are still in the "70's coma," who still think steel is coming back and ask "where are Jeff and Flash," just write/say "WMMS." They have for decades. If the people meter finds out they're not ACTUALLY listening to WMMS (or maybe 3WE), the station could suffer. Just a hypothetical theory.

The Buzzard is the 2nd most recognizeable logo/character in NE Ohio (right behind Chief Wahoo), but I don't think anyone really knows what it stands for anymore.

"WMMS" and "The Buzzard" are just synonyms for "radio I like to listen to." Too bad that, for most, the synonym is not a reality.