WMVP New CP

[Schroedingers Cat]

WMVP 1000 is downgrading to 37000 watts Nighttime, and shorter towers. From just East of Joliet, IL.

Analysis.

1. Much weaker signal in Downtown/Loop Area of Chicago, much farther from the CDP/Loop and the Northern parts of Metropolitan Chicago. Better at Night in Western suburban places like Aurora and Naperville, where the existing nulls are problematic.

2. Roughly comparable in rural areas of Central and Northern Michigan at Night, and Northern Wisconsin.

3. Remains a Class A Skywave protected station.

4. Not as bad as WOWO Downgrade at Night. WOWO downgraded to Class B with 9800 watts Night and no protected skywave.

 

[tvnut]

exactly.. but the geeks who cant remember this is a business complain every time lol

Well, pardon us for wanting to see AM remain viable, at least in terms of facilities. This downgrade, because of the pattern, helps some areas of Chicagoland and hurts others (the built-up population area on the map is quite out of date). So that will be to Good Karma’s detriment. (But Disney makes out like a bandit on the land; it’s in a reasonably affluent area that could fetch $20-25 million.)

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Well, pardon us for wanting to see AM remain viable, at least in terms of facilities. This downgrade, because of the pattern, helps some areas of Chicagoland and hurts others (the built-up population area on the map is quite out of date). So that will be to Good Karma’s detriment. (But Disney makes out like a bandit on the land; it’s in a reasonably affluent area that could fetch $20-25 million.)

im glad you know more than the people spending the money at good karma

 

[KeithE4]

Well, pardon us for wanting to see AM remain viable, at least in terms of facilities. This downgrade, because of the pattern, helps some areas of Chicagoland and hurts others (the built-up population area on the map is quite out of date). So that will be to Good Karma’s detriment.

Depends on the new pattern. When I lived in Streamwood (NW Cook County) in the late '80s and early '90s, then-WCFL was barely audible due to phase cancellation. Northwest Cook is a prime suburban area, and has been for 50 years. If this new transmitter helps that area, that's what matters.

In any case, Disney probably couldn't care less about coverage outside metro Chicago. The days of 50 kW stations covering 38 states and Canada are long over.

(But Disney makes out like a bandit on the land; it’s in a reasonably affluent area that could fetch $20-25 million.)

It's roughly 20 acres (2x1 city blocks, at 8 to a mile), in a neighborhood that is 100% residential other than the tower site itself, and not close to a major street. Good for building a few additional decent sized houses, but nothing else. I'd be shocked if the tower site owner got that much money for it, even at DuPage County prices.

 

[TheBigA]

4. Not as bad as WOWO Downgrade at Night. WOWO downgraded to Class B with 9800 watts Night and no protected skywave.

The purpose was to give co-owned WLIB a nighttime signal of 30K. No such deal involved with WMVP.

 

[TheBigA]

In any case, Disney probably couldn't care less about coverage outside metro Chicago.

Disney no longer owns WMVP. It was sold last year to Good Karma without tower land.

 

[KeithE4]

Disney no longer owns WMVP. It was sold last year to Good Karma without tower land.

Yes, my mistake. Posted in too much of a hurry. And I doubt Good Karma cares much, either.

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, my mistake. Posted in too much of a hurry. And I doubt Good Karma cares much, either.

They're also doing a signal downgrade with their purchase of KSPN in LA

 

[tvnut]

Depends on the new pattern. When I lived in Streamwood (NW Cook County) in the late '80s and early '90s, then-WCFL was barely audible due to phase cancellation. Northwest Cook is a prime suburban area, and has been for 50 years. If this new transmitter helps that area, that's what matters.

In any case, Disney probably couldn't care less about coverage outside metro Chicago. The days of 50 kW stations covering 38 states and Canada are long over.


It's roughly 20 acres (2x1 city blocks, at 8 to a mile), in a neighborhood that is 100% residential other than the tower site itself, and not close to a major street. Good for building a few additional decent sized houses, but nothing else. I'd be shocked if the tower site owner got that much money for it, even at DuPage County prices.

Real estate prices are jumping in suburban Chicago.

 

[tvnut]

im glad you know more than the people spending the money at good karma

Based on some of their decisions, so am I.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The purpose was to give co-owned WLIB a nighttime signal of 30K. No such deal involved with WMVP.

I just meant the changes in facilities. Completely different reasons for downgrading. WOWO remains at the same site. At one point, they had an application for more power at Night, 15 kW with a four tower pattern, which would have preserved some of the de facto service area at Night, though not protected as a Class A.

Proposed pattern WOWO 15 kW APP after downgrade.

am_pattern.php

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Depends on the new pattern. When I lived in Streamwood (NW Cook County) in the late '80s and early '90s, then-WCFL was barely audible due to phase cancellation. Northwest Cook is a prime suburban area, and has been for 50 years. If this new transmitter helps that area, that's what matters.

The shorter towers and different pattern may increase the reception at certain distances.

The late Glen Clark, who designed the existing dogleg array in Downers Grove, discussed the superiority of the WCFL signal over WLS in the Central Business District in this article. Note that the proposed site for WMVP is further than WLS is from the CBD. Currently WMVP is he only signal that puts a predicted 25 mV/m signal over the entire area of the City of Chicago. Glen also was involved in finding a site for WLS in Addison (Grace and Fullerton) in the mid 1970s that would have greatly improved the situation. It's shown on the WLS History Card.

The Audio Prism Story

[June 2011] In the history of audio processing, the TEXAR Audio Prism holds its own place as one of the key tools in the arsenals of stations fighting to produce their “signature” sound and stand

www.thebdr.net

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getimportletter_exh.cgi?import_letter_id=81917

Remembering WCFL and WOWO, I heard them on a Hearever Rocket Crystal Radio with a long wire antenna in Genesee County, MI in the 1960s. They would completely drop in and out because of the Germanium diode voltage required for conduction. In the early 1990s I measured skywaves from WMVP, WOWO, and WCKY all peaking near 10 mV/m on a field strength meter I borrowed.

 

[schmave]

Bitch cue accepted. Guess that means I won't be able to hear WCFL.......ooops, WMVP as well here in NE Ohio as I currently can. Which is not really a big deal to me since they haven't played music for decades.

You should be fine up there. I don't think 37K plus that directional boost will cause much loss in signal to the east.
The original snarky comment both here and the on DX forum was unnecessary in the first place.

 

[JeremyAndrews]

The gain in Kendall County should be good for them honestly. The target audience is suburban men as far as I know.

 

[kevtronics]

Day & night no real loss of Chicago Metro coverage.

View attachment 5497View attachment 5496

As Ernestine would say at sunset: "We just lost Milwaukee."

 

[kevtronics]

The main building on the site still has WCFL on the front, at least as of a year ago.

It'll be a shame to lose the Art Deco-style transmitter building. I'd love to see it preserved and repurposed, but then it wouldn't fit in with the cookie-cutter housing developments that will soon replace it.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

If I remember correctly, the WCFL tower was at one time in Yorkville. They used to put the more powerful stations way out so as not to overwhelm the 250 to 1000 watt stations locally. Hence the Mooseheart, Mokena/Tinley Park, etc. locations.

Kendall County had a population of 131,869 in 2020.

Just checked the History Card. It was York Township, not Yorkville. York Township is now partly Downers Grove. WENR/WLS once had their tower near there, about 5 miles South of the current site of the WMVP towers. They should have stayed there.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

It'll be a shame to lose the Art Deco-style transmitter building. I'd love to see it preserved and repurposed, but then it wouldn't fit in with the cookie-cutter housing developments that will soon replace it.

It's probably already sold, but they should have put the Museum of Broadcast Communications there. Probably too expensive for that.

 

[MarkW]

When AM stations relocate due to land sales or other reasons, the new facilities frequently seem to produce an inferior signal over the heart of the intended market compared to the original signal.

I hope that doesn't prove to be the case here.

I will say I am unfamiliar with WTMJ's results on a before and after basis when it moved to Union Grove about 25 years ago.

 

[davideduardo]

When AM stations relocate due to land sales or other reasons, the new facilities frequently seem to produce an inferior signal over the heart of the intended market compared to the original signal.

There are, I believe in all cases, newer protection requirements that make moves, whether for land sales or government calling eminent domain, result is slightly greater protections. If Mr Fybush sees this, perhaps he can clarify.

In the case of this station (which will always be WCFL to me) the seller wanted to keep the land and sold only the station. In other words, Good Karma had to move no matter what.

I will say I am unfamiliar with WTMJ's results on a before and after basis when it moved to Union Grove about 25 years ago.

I thought WTMJ moved to allow it to increase power once regional channels were allowed more than 5 kw.