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WNTP

T

Those RRRRs

Guest
I was going to ask if anyone else has experienced the same problem that I hear with 990 WNTP, but it would require someone besides me who listens to the station AND posts here.I live close to the Willow Grove exit of the turnpike, and when I drive around the neighborhood, many times the station fades, but it's a very unusual fade.Instead of the signal just fading in and out like a normal AM signal does from time to time, WNTP seems to go into an "un-tuned" mode, and it sounds like one is "tuning" the dial. It almost sounds like what one would hear if he were to tune to the adjacent frequency of any station...such as 1220 or 1200 while tuning to WPHT.Any explanation? I've never heard another AM station fade like WNTP.
 
990 AM WNTP (formerly WIBG) has had that problem in Willow Grove and northerly protected directions (at least since they moved from Elkins Park, went directional, and raised their power-about 50 years ago). With the directional antenna system operating properly, the carrier nulls, but the sidebands do not. It is a common problem with directional AM's and one of the reasons HD Radio causes so much more interference. What you are hearing is double sideband reduced carrier.Since HD AM operates primarily on adjacent channels (where the analog sidebands are) there is much less protection (null) afforded to "protected" adjacent channel stations. This creates interference problems with the current allocation system, unless the antenna patterns are "broadbanded".I lived north of 990 AM near Ambler, in a carrier null about 5 miles from WIBG 990 AM's transmitter, and got the double sideband, almost no carrier effect every time they switched to night pattern. They had to protect a cochannel Canadian station, so the adjacent channel sideband splatter was not considered a problem, as the Canadian station was hundreds of miles away.KYW has similar problems, over a smaller area in certain directions.
 
You are both on the right track. WNTP operates with two directional patterns - one day and one night. The daytime is not as bad as it once was during the WIBG days. Back in 1986 we dropped the fifth tower of the array and let the pattern out. The nighttime is somewhat better than the WIBG days but still leaves a lot to be desired in many directions.The day pattern has nulls at 11, 254, 299, 319,and 339 degrees. The night pattern has those nulls with two additional: 25 and 267 degrees. The two heaviest daytime nulls are 11 and 254 degrees. So, chances are that is what you're hearing in Willow Grove. The nighttime signal also suffers from WNTP having to reduce power from 50,000 to 10,000 watts.The good news is that, after extensive engineering studies, we are in the process of the putting together an application that will allow us to let the day pattern out substantially to the NE and the W; as well as increasing nighttime power and letting that pattern out, as well. We are hoping that the applications will be filed within the next couple of months. Of course, once it's filed it goes through the slow as molasses FCC approval process, and then comes the job of returning the antenna system. So, we are definitely not talking about an overnight solution.Rene'
 
Hey Rene, What actually is the measured effective radiated power in the non critical direction of the pattern particularly to the east? According to Hy, WIBG was considered your station 'From the Door to the Shore'. This was attributed to the consistent signal reception and listener activity throughout South Jersey. WFIL never really had that measured capacity. So can it not be said that 990 has the sweeter signal? Even then as it exists today?Sam LitPresident/[email protected]
 
"Back in the day" WIBG daytime had a fair signal toward Atlantic City as did WFIL. If I recall correctly, WFIL had the better night signal at Atlantic City.
When Rayhall sold it, WNAR 1110 AM (now WNAP) had an approved Construction Permit for a 50,000 watt 9 tower directional antenna system that had an effective radiated power of 500,000 watts toward Atlantic City, NJ. It would have put a very respectable city grade 5 mv/m into Pleasentville, NJ over 50 miles away! Daytime only, of course. It was never built. The new owner decided not to make the large investment necessary to buy the land and for construction.
So Sam is probably right when he said WIBG had antenna gain toward the Jersey shore.
 
Sam,

The nulls on WNTP are pretty tight at night. If you go off the back of the array towards Norristown, the Effective Power is only 62 watts. It varies anywhere from 42 watts to 75 watts in an arc from west through north to northeast. To the East and SouthEast, however, it's a different story. The nighttime Effective Power towards Philly and the shore is about 65,000 watts. Think of it as a big cigar with the transmitter at one end. During the day the effective power to the southeast is 252kw!

Back in '86 when they loosened the day pattern to the NW by taking down tower #5, it sucked some of the signal in from the ocean, so 990 isn't quite as strong at the shore as it once was -- but it still respectable during the day.

WFIL, on the other hand, has a much more elongated pattern pattern during the day to the SE and NW -- not all that directional, really. At night WFIL, like WNTP, is directional towards the Jersey Shore and Philly, with three small lobes off the back of the array (W, NW, N).

Rene'
 
Hey Rene

Back before we rebuilt the WNTP (WZZD then) array (before WFIL came over to the party) the night array was sooo tight. At night you could look at the tower lights at night over where the Northeast extension meets the turnpike and not hear the station even though it was cooking along at 10 kW.

Slim Sulyma (now in Colorado) tuned the old array back around 1981 or 82. Poor Stu E had to keep that tough puppy in.

That was a good but tough job putting in the replacement phasor and tuning it up. (The old night phasor actually had a coil melt down the day before we took it out) Lots of 6 AM breakfasts at Dennys - we only had from 1 AM to 5 AM to do the installation and tuning.

Even the old day array was tight. WZZN could not be heard on Main Line.

That was part of the reason that WFIL beat WIBG when they went top 40. They covered the whole market. WIBG missed everything from the south to the west to the north.

Ted
 
Hi Rene',

Despite the drop to 10 kW at night, I used to hear WZZD/WNTP easily in my home state of RI after then daytimer WLKW would sign off. Is Winnipeg the major Canadian you protect, or does CKGM also factor into things? Any considerations for the 990 in Rochester at all? As a side note to the 1110 50 kW CP, WNAP/WNAR could probably have gotten some night power as well with those 9 sticks. WNWR 1540, from what I'm told, slams into So. Jersey....


Dave Gardiner

WVCH 740/WNWR 1540
 
Growing up in Levittown in the '60s, WIBG was toast when WFIL flipped to top 40, because of WIBG's constant but weak presence on the dial at night. WCFL next door at 1000 khz was louder, and gave WIBG that swash-buckling effect over the music. If they did an Arbitron just for Lower Bucks County, nighttime rankings would have been:

1) WTTM with Ron Diamond
2) WFIL with George
3) WIBG with Landecker
 
The night pattern primarily protects three stations: CBW in Winnepeg, CBY in New Foundland, and WNOX in Knoxville (I forget their new call letters). Montreal, Rochester, RI, and CT all protect us. Back in the days before the fifth tower was removed and the day and night patterns loosened, we were required to place virtually no signal anywhere over the Canadian border since 990 is a Canadian Clear Channel. When the rules changed in the early 80's, requiring protection to Canadian stations on 990 similar to protection provided stations in the USA, that opened up the legal window to loosen the pattern. I'm sure that Ted could talk better about this since he did the allocation studies. (By the way, Hi Ted: long time, no see).

The current situation is that neither pattern is what we would like. It's interesting that this subject should come up right now, since today (6/28) we filed with the Commission to let the day pattern out some more. (See the FCC's CDBS on the web). This will improve the WNTP's signal to some extent in Chester and Bucks Counties. This has come about because of changes in otherstations on 990 and its adjacent frequencies, as well as extensive measurements on those stations.

Will WNTP be able to increase its nighttime signal? That remains to be seen. It is currently being studied. We did make some minor adjustments to the night array back in February to better get the signal to match the standard pattern. That helped a little, but we are still limited by the current standard pattern maximums, as augmented in the late 90s when WFIL moved to the site.

The interesting thing about the pre-1986 night system was that the actual operating power was only 6500 watts, even though the licensed power was 10,000 watts. Back in those days the FCC would only allow standard power levels: 250, 500, 1000, 5000 watts, etc. As Ted described, that old pattern was so tight you could see the towers and not hear the station. To make the pattern work and meet the restrictions, there was a large dropping resistor network in the night phasor, that brought the post-common point power down to 6500 watts. (It looked like a large array of toaster elements). So, in reality, WIBG was only 6500 watts at night, even though the transmitter was pumping out 10,000 watts. 3500 watts went up in heat. They couldn't license a 6500 watt station, so they did the next best thing: got a 10,000 watt night license and dropped the efficiency down to 6500. (Wibbage's dirty little power secret).

By the way, Ted. I remember very well working with Slim to get that old array in. It was the first thing I had to do when I got here in 1981. What a bear! That old hard line and phasing system didn't help.

Rene'
 
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