OK Jim or Mike, did they go away YET?
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WNWK Revisited Again
- Thread starter DaveWilliams
- Start date
J
jhguthlac
Guest
Nope. Still on the air loud and clear. So my March 31st theory was wrong!
I just checked, and WNWK 1260 was not on the air. Nothing there. This is about 10:45am Friday. So maybe 1260 Newark is finally gone.
Still a sad thing for NCC to lose another of it very few radio stations.
AM: 1150 WDEL, 1290 WWTX, 1450 WILM.
FM: 89.1 WHXL, 91.3 WVUD, 93.7 WSTW, 99.5 WJBR are what's left of the local radio dial.
Stations like 1510 WFAI, 1550 WXHL-AM Elkton MD, 101.7 WJKS, 103.7 WXCY. 94.7 WDSD, and 92.9 WRDX have their towers and COL elsewhere as they are Wilmington rim shot stations, not actual Wilmington stations. 1380 is DelDot (might as well be silent), and now 1260 gone.
Still a sad thing for NCC to lose another of it very few radio stations.
AM: 1150 WDEL, 1290 WWTX, 1450 WILM.
FM: 89.1 WHXL, 91.3 WVUD, 93.7 WSTW, 99.5 WJBR are what's left of the local radio dial.
Stations like 1510 WFAI, 1550 WXHL-AM Elkton MD, 101.7 WJKS, 103.7 WXCY. 94.7 WDSD, and 92.9 WRDX have their towers and COL elsewhere as they are Wilmington rim shot stations, not actual Wilmington stations. 1380 is DelDot (might as well be silent), and now 1260 gone.
Asked someone in the Boxwood Road area of Wilmington to check 1260 today 4/6 shortly after 12 noon and it was indeed off the air. Sorry to see that one go. And Mike, don't forget WMPH 91.7 as a Wilmington station also, if they're still on the air. Is there any Internet radio activity in NCC these days?
J
jhguthlac
Guest
Yeap, 1260m is clear now except for the noise from whatever is coming in tonight.
Remember Mike, radio is a business. We can only support as many stations as there is a sponsor base for support. Pretty soon, we will no longer be able to support even a newspaper.
Remember Mike, radio is a business. We can only support as many stations as there is a sponsor base for support. Pretty soon, we will no longer be able to support even a newspaper.
Thanks Dave, I did omit WMPH 91.7 from that list. I in fact tuned in to them for a short time while scanning the dial as they played "One" by Three Dog Night and then the next song, for my older ear, didn't fit the format and I tuned away.
Jim, it's hard for my mind to wrap itself around the idea that for some reason the Wilmington Metro Area even though its growing in population and has twice as many people as the Salisbury/Ocean City market, that is able to support a couple TV stations, a bunch of Radio stations, and a newspaper, while Wilmington can't support even one TV, only a few radio, and a dieing newspaper. There's just something wrong with this that almost any other place in the US can have a viable commercial TV station and a bunch of local radio stations and Wilmington has no TV, and only a few radio stations. If it weren't for WXHL, WVUD, and WMPH all non-comms, Wilmington would only have 2 FM stations and 3 AM stations. I don't understand how a place with far less people can support via advertisers more media than our far larger market. That would be like Wilmington having more TV and Radio than Baltimore. It just doesn't make sense, economically or any other way. I realize Philly is close by, but Wilmington advertisers rarely advertise on Philly TV or radio as its not cost effective to pay to reach all those folks 9/10's of whom don't live in the Wilmington area.
Jim, it's hard for my mind to wrap itself around the idea that for some reason the Wilmington Metro Area even though its growing in population and has twice as many people as the Salisbury/Ocean City market, that is able to support a couple TV stations, a bunch of Radio stations, and a newspaper, while Wilmington can't support even one TV, only a few radio, and a dieing newspaper. There's just something wrong with this that almost any other place in the US can have a viable commercial TV station and a bunch of local radio stations and Wilmington has no TV, and only a few radio stations. If it weren't for WXHL, WVUD, and WMPH all non-comms, Wilmington would only have 2 FM stations and 3 AM stations. I don't understand how a place with far less people can support via advertisers more media than our far larger market. That would be like Wilmington having more TV and Radio than Baltimore. It just doesn't make sense, economically or any other way. I realize Philly is close by, but Wilmington advertisers rarely advertise on Philly TV or radio as its not cost effective to pay to reach all those folks 9/10's of whom don't live in the Wilmington area.
D
DX
Guest
But Philly takes a chunk of the ratings. Wilmington local retail advertisers may not run commercials on Philadelphia radio stations, but Philly accounts for a substantial wedge of the pie.
A better comparison would be northwestern Indiana (Gary, Hammond and suburbs) vs. Chicago (although northwestern Indiana admittedly doesn't constitute a separate, Arbitron-rated market).
A better comparison would be northwestern Indiana (Gary, Hammond and suburbs) vs. Chicago (although northwestern Indiana admittedly doesn't constitute a separate, Arbitron-rated market).
DX, based on what you're saying, the Wilmington radio market is dead. So when WDEL finally gets that 10K signal giving them a nice signal into Philly, how long before we hear WDEL saying "you're listening to 1150 WDEL Wilmington/Philadelphia? I'd expect WSTW and WJBR to eventually start doing that too as they already have a solid signal into Philly.
I don't read anything into DX's post that says "the Wilmington radio market is dead." What I think he's saying (and he's right) is that the presence of all those Philadelphia signals, pulling listenership but not revenue out of Wilmington, causes Wilmington to function as a somewhat smaller radio market (revenue-wise, anyway) than its raw population numbers would suggest.
There's still money to be made in Wlimington - just not as much as might be made in a market of similar population size that's not within listening range of a top-10 market.
Even with the 10 kW upgrade, WDEL will not have enough signal into Philadelphia to be any kind of a factor there.
There's still money to be made in Wlimington - just not as much as might be made in a market of similar population size that's not within listening range of a top-10 market.
Even with the 10 kW upgrade, WDEL will not have enough signal into Philadelphia to be any kind of a factor there.
Thanks Scott for explaining DX's point a bit better for me.
So based on what you and DX are saying, IF Wilmington and its metro area was where Dover is, THAT Wilmington market would have more radio stations and yes some of its own TV stations, because then Philly stations would get a far smaller if any significant amount of the Wilmington market's listeners/viewers vs what Philly stations now get with Wilmington being only 23 miles away from Philly vs about 70 miles distance from the "Pretend" Wilmington market being in Dover.
So in one sense, the Wilmington market is dead, or dieing as it will never grow and never have TV and down the road when AM radio finally bites the dust, the Wilmington market will only really have WSTW and WJBR, plus the three non-comms. THEN Arbitron will probably want to absorb the Wilmington Radio market into Philly's as was done with TV back in the 1950's.
Then Delaware will have another oddity to add to its claims to fame such as being the only state with no commercial TV (NJ has TV in Atlantic City), and the only state without any scheduled airline service. Also the only state without a National Park. We'll then be the only state without any rated radio market. As the realtors say: Location, location, location.
So based on what you and DX are saying, IF Wilmington and its metro area was where Dover is, THAT Wilmington market would have more radio stations and yes some of its own TV stations, because then Philly stations would get a far smaller if any significant amount of the Wilmington market's listeners/viewers vs what Philly stations now get with Wilmington being only 23 miles away from Philly vs about 70 miles distance from the "Pretend" Wilmington market being in Dover.
So in one sense, the Wilmington market is dead, or dieing as it will never grow and never have TV and down the road when AM radio finally bites the dust, the Wilmington market will only really have WSTW and WJBR, plus the three non-comms. THEN Arbitron will probably want to absorb the Wilmington Radio market into Philly's as was done with TV back in the 1950's.
Then Delaware will have another oddity to add to its claims to fame such as being the only state with no commercial TV (NJ has TV in Atlantic City), and the only state without any scheduled airline service. Also the only state without a National Park. We'll then be the only state without any rated radio market. As the realtors say: Location, location, location.
I think even that's a little overly pessimistic, Mike.
Yes, Wilmington would likely have more stations in its market if it were another 40 or 45 miles south of Philadelphia. But that still doesn't make it "dead," or "dying," or even rule out growth.
All it means is this: if Wilmington were where Dover is, nearly all of the 600,000 or so sets of ears in the market would be listening to Wilmington-market radio...and so each of the local stations would likely enjoy higher audience shares and would thus probably be able to charge more.
Instead, Wilmington's local stations fight to get to a total of perhaps a 30-35% share of that audience, with 55-60% or so of listening going to Philadelphia stations and the rest to Baltimore, York, etc.
Now consider this: being under Philadelphia's media umbrella also leaves Wilmington-market advertisers with fewer places to put their ads. If Wilmington had local TV, those local TV stations would probably suck up more than half of all the local ad revenue. But Wilmington advertisers can't afford to buy Philadelphia TV just to reach Wilmington viewers...so the absence of local OTA TV means those advertisers have to consider using more radio, which helps to bring radio revenues back up closer to where they'd be in an "isolated" market without all the Philadelphia leakage.
It is highly unlikely that Wilmington would become part of the Philadelphia radio market any time soon. The Philadelphia signals aren't universally good enough over Wilmington, and it's unlikely that adding Wilmington would ever be the deciding factor in keeping Philadelphia in the top 10 radio markets. (Compare that to the Boston market, which keeps adding counties to the north and west in hopes of maintaining its top-10 status.)
And Wilmington's not even all that unique in being "under the umbrella." Because radio waves don't respect state lines or arbitrary market boundaries, there are plenty of other places with substantial population but disproportionately little local broadcast service. The residents of San Jose, Riverside/San Bernardino, northwest Indiana, Worcester, and, yes, even Trenton and Reading and Long Island and the Hudson Valley all feel the same effects. None of those places has local commercial TV to speak of, but I know people making money doing radio in all of them.
Yes, Wilmington would likely have more stations in its market if it were another 40 or 45 miles south of Philadelphia. But that still doesn't make it "dead," or "dying," or even rule out growth.
All it means is this: if Wilmington were where Dover is, nearly all of the 600,000 or so sets of ears in the market would be listening to Wilmington-market radio...and so each of the local stations would likely enjoy higher audience shares and would thus probably be able to charge more.
Instead, Wilmington's local stations fight to get to a total of perhaps a 30-35% share of that audience, with 55-60% or so of listening going to Philadelphia stations and the rest to Baltimore, York, etc.
Now consider this: being under Philadelphia's media umbrella also leaves Wilmington-market advertisers with fewer places to put their ads. If Wilmington had local TV, those local TV stations would probably suck up more than half of all the local ad revenue. But Wilmington advertisers can't afford to buy Philadelphia TV just to reach Wilmington viewers...so the absence of local OTA TV means those advertisers have to consider using more radio, which helps to bring radio revenues back up closer to where they'd be in an "isolated" market without all the Philadelphia leakage.
It is highly unlikely that Wilmington would become part of the Philadelphia radio market any time soon. The Philadelphia signals aren't universally good enough over Wilmington, and it's unlikely that adding Wilmington would ever be the deciding factor in keeping Philadelphia in the top 10 radio markets. (Compare that to the Boston market, which keeps adding counties to the north and west in hopes of maintaining its top-10 status.)
And Wilmington's not even all that unique in being "under the umbrella." Because radio waves don't respect state lines or arbitrary market boundaries, there are plenty of other places with substantial population but disproportionately little local broadcast service. The residents of San Jose, Riverside/San Bernardino, northwest Indiana, Worcester, and, yes, even Trenton and Reading and Long Island and the Hudson Valley all feel the same effects. None of those places has local commercial TV to speak of, but I know people making money doing radio in all of them.
D
DX
Guest
Scott, as usual, hits the nail on the head.
His point about the lack of television in Wilmington is important. One of the reasons the Salisbury--Ocean City, Maryland area is such a difficult place in which to make any money: The presence of two commercial TV stations there charging low radio-style rates. It triggers a race-to-the-bottom mentality when it comes to radio commercial rates, and the cost-cutting that we've seen.
Wilmington radio benefits in that respect. Of course, as you know, the TV "competition" in Wilmington shrunk some years ago with the demise of cable channel 2 news, and more recently, a nightly half-hour newscast on WHYY TV 12. That's why WDEL has been able to capitalize to such an extent with the video stories on its website, and that website has become an even greater revenue stream.
To an earlier point, even if WDEL ever got the power upgrade to 10,000 watts, don't forget WDEL would still have to protect the stations it protects now, notably Hamilton, Ontario; it's not as though WDEL's signal would suddenly become non-directional.
His point about the lack of television in Wilmington is important. One of the reasons the Salisbury--Ocean City, Maryland area is such a difficult place in which to make any money: The presence of two commercial TV stations there charging low radio-style rates. It triggers a race-to-the-bottom mentality when it comes to radio commercial rates, and the cost-cutting that we've seen.
Wilmington radio benefits in that respect. Of course, as you know, the TV "competition" in Wilmington shrunk some years ago with the demise of cable channel 2 news, and more recently, a nightly half-hour newscast on WHYY TV 12. That's why WDEL has been able to capitalize to such an extent with the video stories on its website, and that website has become an even greater revenue stream.
To an earlier point, even if WDEL ever got the power upgrade to 10,000 watts, don't forget WDEL would still have to protect the stations it protects now, notably Hamilton, Ontario; it's not as though WDEL's signal would suddenly become non-directional.
J
jhguthlac
Guest
Mike, When the spring ratings are released you need to look at it carefully. What percentage of listening is going to Wilmington stations? Putting the numbers in rough terms, WJBR/WSTW take around 20% in total. WDEL/WILM another 10% in total. WXCY/WDSD maybe another 8% in total. Approximately TWO-THIRDS is listening to out of town stations, primarily Philly, but Baltimore also.
We get only a small share of the listener pie.
We get only a small share of the listener pie.
Thank all three of you, for explaining the details of how it works. It is complicated, but between what the three of you said, it does make sense.
I guess the other competitor for ad revenue that would affect Wilmington radio would be Wilmington cable TV ads by local advertisers. I don't watch that much TV, but usually am surprised at how many local ads I do see when I watch cable ( I view far more of my TV viewing from Net Flix or Xfinity online so no local ads). Having lived here all of my life (a life without real local TV, so no local TV ads) I'm not used to seeing Wilmington/Newark TV ads here, even on cable. But I guess that is where the local TV ads are for this market, on cable TV rather than OTA TV. My guess is the cable TV ads costs are closer to the radio ad costs vs OTA TV even a Wilmington OTA TV station, so Wilmington radio is able to still get a decent piece of the ad pie here.
I guess the other competitor for ad revenue that would affect Wilmington radio would be Wilmington cable TV ads by local advertisers. I don't watch that much TV, but usually am surprised at how many local ads I do see when I watch cable ( I view far more of my TV viewing from Net Flix or Xfinity online so no local ads). Having lived here all of my life (a life without real local TV, so no local TV ads) I'm not used to seeing Wilmington/Newark TV ads here, even on cable. But I guess that is where the local TV ads are for this market, on cable TV rather than OTA TV. My guess is the cable TV ads costs are closer to the radio ad costs vs OTA TV even a Wilmington OTA TV station, so Wilmington radio is able to still get a decent piece of the ad pie here.
J
jhguthlac
Guest
Mike, when you add that Wilmington does not have TV you are only partly right. While we do not really have a station, we have hundreds of stations taking ad REVENUE. That cable tv money really adds up. Particularly during the election cycle. Think how much money the candidates are pouring into the production and airing of tv ads, aimed primarily at the cable-only market? That money used to go to the radio stations. Doesn't anymore!
Good point Jim, its kind of invisible TV money, but as you said radio used to get it, but now isn't getting that ad revenue. So Comcast has cut into Wilmington's radio revenue stream.
As I said, I just don't watch cable TV ( I have the very basic broadcast cable service) so I only see those cable ads if I'm visiting someone else's home who usually have way more cable than I'm willing to spend money to have and I'm shocked at how many local TV ads there are. It seems so odd, because I never see those ads on channels 3,6,10, 17, 29, 48, 57, or 61, and of course not on non-comm channel 12.
As I said, I just don't watch cable TV ( I have the very basic broadcast cable service) so I only see those cable ads if I'm visiting someone else's home who usually have way more cable than I'm willing to spend money to have and I'm shocked at how many local TV ads there are. It seems so odd, because I never see those ads on channels 3,6,10, 17, 29, 48, 57, or 61, and of course not on non-comm channel 12.
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