WNYC-fm iboc vs. multipath aircheck

[LinoNYC]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9y4r1p

This 24mb wav will give you an idea of what has happened to FM here in NYC.

Years ago a 30" length of wire was all it took for good local FM stereo now eventhough I'am well above street level it's a pain to receive clean FM. Unfortunately, my other two FM favorites WNYE and WQXR do not use this system yet.

For this recording, I switched the acurian off station and back @ ;29 and :44 to get back to analog while the set locked and buffered back to digital.

Here's a short seg of WPLJ, these highly processed stations tend to just sound smeared under adverse conditions and the difference between digital and analog is less dramatic.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/hcd56p .WAV 5mb

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Your recording has no relevance to anyone except yourself, at your exact location, only with the exact antenna conditions, stations and antenna configuration you use. Even people or pets moving around the room, opening a metal framed window, door, etc. or changes in weather, temperature, or humidity can change multipath patterns.
Move the radio or antenna a few feet, change the polorization, length, antenna type or height, change station, frequency, or move objects in the area and the multipath patterns change.
At my location I get no multipath from any of the stations you mention. Does that indicate I get perfect reception?

 

[vsa]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9y4r1p

This 24mb wav will give you an idea of what has happened to FM here in NYC.

Years ago a 30" length of wire was all it took for good local FM stereo now eventhough I'am well above street level it's a pain to receive clean FM. Unfortunately, my other two FM favorites WNYE and WQXR do not use this system yet.

For this recording, I switched the acurian off station and back @ ;29 and :44 to get back to analog while the set locked and buffered back to digital.

Here's a short seg of WPLJ, these highly processed stations tend to just sound smeared under adverse conditions and the difference between digital and analog is less dramatic.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/hcd56p .WAV 5mb

Lino

WNYE is unfortunately still not streaming, however, WQXR has a pair of very high quality 96kbps streams in Windows Media and Real Audio formats at this link below:

http://www.wqxr.com/cgi-bin/iowa/air/listen/index.html

WQXR is booming in here in Los Angeles without any multipath or other signal problems. It's listed on my Roku Soundbridge M1001 Wi-Fi radio along with many other excellent stations.

Personally, the radio listener in me is winning out over the radio geek in me.

 

[LinoNYC]

Your recording has no relevance to anyone except yourself, at your exact location, only with the exact antenna conditions, stations and antenna configuration you use. Even people or pets moving around the room, opening a metal framed window, door, etc. or changes in weather, temperature, or humidity can change multipath patterns.
Move the radio or antenna a few feet, change the [polarization ,] length, antenna type or height, change station, frequency, or move objects in the area and the multipath patterns change.

The "antenna conditions" are the supplied dipole placed where it works best in compromise for the three stations I mentioned. Since the other two are analog only at this time, placement was more important for them, the iboc takes care of WNYC. I'am going to try a rabbit ears to try and improve things without junking up the dining table that the set is located on.

At my location I get no multipath from any of the stations you mention.

Out in the sticks where the tallest building is an outhouse, multipath isn't a problem.
Here in New York and in all major urban areas it certainly is a problem.

Lino

 

[LinoNYC]

WQXR is booming in here in Los Angeles without any multipath or other signal problems. It's listed on my Roku Soundbridge M1001 Wi-Fi radio along with many other excellent stations.

...And I often stream KNX (have a friend in Santa Monica/We-Ho) but neither stands to benefit from listeners 3200 miles away.

You could theoretically apply the network radio model and have a local station go after nationwide advertisers, but the problem here will be the sheer number of streaming stations dillute the value of any one signal.

Another point came to mind today and I called someone I know up near where we once had a weekend house on Lake George. They never did get cable tv service and internet is still dial-up although there is atleast a chance for dSl eventually.

There are vast stretches of this country where the density/ROI may never make wifi economically practical. Perhaps local stations and businesses will team-up with ISP's or local governments to facilitate wi-fi, it might be in their interest.

Lino

 

[Chuck]

Another point came to mind today and I called someone I know up near where we once had a weekend house on Lake George. They never did get cable tv service and internet is still dial-up although there is atleast a chance for dSl eventually.

There are vast stretches of this country where the density/ROI may never make wifi economically practical. Perhaps local stations and businesses will team-up with ISP's or local governments to facilitate wi-fi, it might be in their interest.

Lino

I wouldn't bank on a long term lack of Internet access for rural areas, especially for lake communities that attract people. Perhaps it will be a long time for it to get to the corn fields of Iowa, but even those folks have Hughes Net satellite service.

I live in what qualifies as "Rural America." It is unincorporated, but we still have two high speed Internet options, not counting satellite. One is through a local independent Wireless ISP, and another is from my cell phone carrier (Alltel). Both work quite well thanks. This weekend I went to visit a neighbor who is a good 10 miles further away from town than I am who really does live out in a field. His driveway is nearly a mile long. To my total amazement, he had DSL and was busy listening to streaming audio over it.

Perhaps it is the under populated areas in the eastern part of the country that are slow to deploy high speed Internet? If I were a service provider, I'd probably aim at the bigger targets (like major cities) too. If you are out in the middle of nowhere, with no big targets around, you tend to go with what you have. Amazingly, that idea seems to work and people are willing to pay for it.

 

[vsa]

WQXR is booming in here in Los Angeles without any multipath or other signal problems. It's listed on my Roku Soundbridge M1001 Wi-Fi radio along with many other excellent stations.

...And I often stream KNX (have a friend in Santa Monica/We-Ho) but neither stands to benefit from listeners 3200 miles away.

You could theoretically apply the network radio model and have a local station go after nationwide advertisers, but the problem here will be the sheer number of streaming stations dillute the value of any one signal.

Another point came to mind today and I called someone I know up near where we once had a weekend house on Lake George.  They never did get cable tv service and internet is still dial-up although there is atleast a chance for dSl eventually.

There are vast stretches of this country where the density/ROI may never make wifi economically practical.  Perhaps local stations and businesses will team-up with ISP's or local governments to facilitate wi-fi, it might be in their interest. 

Lino

Therein lies the challenge and the opportunity going forward for terrestrial radio. Like many others, KNX sells and streams Internet-only spots. It isn't all that hard to stream spots that target localities, regions, nations or continents by the listener's IP address. There is nothing to keep any station from selling on a local, regional, national and international basis. The problem for broadcasters lies in the likelihood that their programming content will have to be either very local, best of breed or both. Gone will be the days of being able to air infomercials, unless you choose to become THE infomercial station. There is another kind of local that you might call the "new local" - programming that is local in the sense of reaching a particular psychographic, life-style or "tribe" with specialized interests. Those who take advantage of these unique opportunities can become big winners. Those who spend all of their efforts on dead ends are falling behind. As cool as it is to hear digital radio on the AM or FM dial, and I admit that it's a cool idea to this seasoned broadcaster, the same thing is being done in a better way on the web. Disruptive technologies are like that. And radio on the web is growing rapidly.

 

[Chuck]

And radio on the web is growing rapidly.

I'll credit Radio World for this tid-bit, but I may be wrong on my source. Whoever it was claimed that 38% of Internet radio listening is to existing over the air radio stations. I'll bet that is so. The broadcasting industry should look upon this as a golden opportunity as content providers. It's potentially a very big pie that will probably end up making HD look like a minor inconvenience. In fact, HD may even accelerate the switch to Internet based delivery, especially if the problems with night time IBOC turn out to be as predicted. I guess we’ll all see about that. Even if they are true, people will still continue to listen to broadcasting. The question is, "Will they do it on AM?"

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Your recording has no relevance to anyone except yourself, at your exact location, only with the exact antenna conditions, stations and antenna configuration you use. Even people or pets moving around the room, opening a metal framed window, door, etc. or changes in weather, temperature, or humidity can change multipath patterns.
Move the radio or antenna a few feet, change the [polarization ,] length, antenna type or height, change station, frequency, or move objects in the area and the multipath patterns change.

The "antenna conditions" are the supplied dipole placed where it works best in compromise for the three stations I mentioned. Since the other two are analog only at this time, placement was more important for them, the iboc takes care of WNYC. I'am going to try a rabbit ears to try and improve things without junking up the dining table that the set is located on.

At my location I get no multipath from any of the stations you mention.

Out in the sticks where the tallest building is an outhouse, multipath isn't a problem.
Here in New York and in all major urban areas it certainly is a problem.

Lino

A circularly polarized FM receiving antenna should reduce or solve your multipath FM problems. No need for adjacent channel jamming, HD radio.

http://www.wryr.org/Antenna_instructions.pdf
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm

 

[clouseau]

Your recording has no relevance to anyone except yourself, at your exact location, only with the exact antenna conditions, stations and antenna configuration you use. Even people or pets moving around the room, opening a metal framed window, door, etc. or changes in weather, temperature, or humidity can change multipath patterns.
Move the radio or antenna a few feet, change the [polarization ,] length, antenna type or height, change station, frequency, or move objects in the area and the multipath patterns change.

The "antenna conditions" are the supplied dipole placed where it works best in compromise for the three stations I mentioned. Since the other two are analog only at this time, placement was more important for them, the iboc takes care of WNYC. I'am going to try a rabbit ears to try and improve things without junking up the dining table that the set is located on.

At my location I get no multipath from any of the stations you mention.

Out in the sticks where the tallest building is an outhouse, multipath isn't a problem.
Here in New York and in all major urban areas it certainly is a problem.

Lino

A circularly polarized FM receiving antenna should reduce or solve your multipath FM problems. No need for adjacent channel jamming, HD radio.

http://www.wryr.org/Antenna_instructions.pdf
http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm

As you continue with your "jamming" nonesense, you just continue to look more and more foolish. All these stations have the full support of the regulating authority. I will agree with you on the facts of what you say...

That is...
I believe all "JAMMERS" should be removed from the air. However I also support the use of legally auithorized HD radio. Apparently you don't know the difference.

Your attempt to infer that HD broadcasters are "JAMMERS" is indicative of your level of understanding of the topic.

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

Supercaster does a good job of hiding the depth of his expertise in RF engineering.
His slant on the issue, "jamming" is a perfectly understandable translation into lay terminolgy.
Once in a while he has participated in some other technical threads making it clear he IS qualified to hold his opinion.

ibiquity's mode is the very embodiment of all the things good RF engineers have fought years to avoid,
interfering with others and giving the best audio possible.
Making bad engineering practice legal and standard for those who choose to interfere with the public's airwaves is no different from
making it legal to dump your refuse on your neighbor's front doorstep. It is still morally reprehensible.

IF I were employed in broadcast engineering and had to implement this train wreck, I'd be speaking out just as he is.

 

[clouseau]

Supercaster does a good job of hiding the depth of his expertise in RF engineering.

Agreed. His stated background and attraction to the dogma are a brilliant disguise. I'm buying it.



As I see it, the reality of broadcast engineering (And lots of OTHER engineering for that matter) is changing. Very possibly not for the better, too.

Most things are engineered "More Effieienctly" and thus more Cheaply.

It would be interesting to see how we would allocate FM spectrum if we started from scratch today. I would bet we'd have half the bandwidth and twice the channels. It's actually pretty cool that they gave FM 100KHz. I doubt that would happen today. But times change. And often it's not for the better.

Clouseau

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

As I see it, the reality of broadcast engineering (And lots of OTHER engineering for that matter) is changing. Very possibly not for the better, too.

Most things are engineered "More Effieienctly" and thus more Cheaply.

Your view is correct. Engineers are being marginalized out of the profession they invented, and the best example of this is, regrettably, HD Radio. Back when I learned engineering, no engineer worth his salt would have given any thought to implementing a system which causes interference. It goes against every standard of responsible engineering and responsible broadcasting to transmit signals which deliberately interfere with other stations, inside what is supposed to be the stations' interference-free contours. I've already read, on other boards and remailers, dozens of such complaints from career broadcasters (both engineers and non-engineers), and we don't even have nighttime HD on AM yet. The fact that the government's regulating body has approved it doesn't change the fact that it's poor engineering. I have yet to hear any such interference on FM-HD or see any reports of it, but my concerns with that have to do with the economics of multicasting, not with engineering.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Supercaster does a good job of hiding the depth of his expertise in RF engineering.

Agreed. His stated background (???) and attraction to the dogma (???) are a brilliant disguise. I'm buying it.



As I see it, the reality of broadcast engineering (And lots of OTHER engineering for that matter) is changing. Very possibly not for the better, too.

Most things are engineered "More Effieienctly" and thus more Cheaply.

It would be interesting to see how we would allocate FM spectrum if we started from scratch today. I would bet we'd have half the bandwidth and twice the channels. It's actually pretty cool that they gave FM 100KHz. I doubt that would happen today. But times change. And often it's not for the better.

Clouseau

FM channels in the USA are 200KHz wide and spaced accordingly, not 100KHz as you erroneously stated.

I think you just disqualified yourself from criticizing anyone else's broadcast engineering abilities. ;D

Try to keep from being attracted to and stepping in your own dogma, don't worry about me. I'm fine thanks.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

clouseau said about supercaster:

I am showing how many of the positions you espouse here are unfounded, exagerrated, inflammatory and just plain wrong.

See my post above.

 

[clouseau]

FM channels in the USA are 200KHz wide and spaced accordingly, not 100KHz as you erroneously stated.

The comments are in reference to usable space or BANDWIDTH, not "Channel Width" (as it clearly says in the post). As I'm sure an expert such as yourself understands, there is NOT 200KHz of usable bandwidth on an FM channel but 100 KHz with the other half used by the other side of the carrier. . Or are you ok with just blazing up your SCA at the 145 KHZ mark? After all 145KHz IS less than 200. Ought to fit, right?

I think you just disqualified yourself from criticizing anyone else's broadcast engineering abilities.

Yeah, you're probably right, I guess I don't know much of anything. Time to tear up my SBE card, return the granted licenses I did the spacing and technical work on and withdraw the pending apps at the commission.

Since I'm apparently not qualified to do what I get paid to do every day, I'll need to contract out come FM and LPTV application preparation in the near future. Can you help me out with that?

Clouseau

 

[SUPERCASTER]

You get paid every day for personal attacks on other engineer's?
From iBiquity and the HD cartel?