WNYM, WWRL What's the deal

[Mike Schwartz]

In reviewing the March ARBs, I noticed that both stations seemed to have dropped off the sample. How could these specialized talkers go from 148,000 and 117,000 to nothing in a month? Does anyone know the back story?

http://www.radio-info.com/markets/new-york

 

[Mike Schwartz]

I just discovered the answer elsewhere on the web.


"As of April 16, 2012, Arbitron will no longer report audience estimates for stations that do not subscribe to their ratings service".

I guess that ARB data doesn't matter since most of the ads are brokered anyway.

 

[scott5]

And we dont get to see anymore how NYC stations are doing in LI or in Morristown NJ etc.

 

[wadio]

"As of April 16, 2012, Arbitron will no longer report audience estimates for stations that do not subscribe to their ratings service".

Well, there's an impartial survey methodology!

Wasn't Clear Channel at one time considering not subscribing to Arbitron? Something like that could spell the end of this ridiculous monopoly. We can only hope! ;D

 

[WNTIRadio]

So "******y" of Arbitron. You really think anyone is selling off of topline numbers? Or any agency is buying from those 6+ numbers?

Well, there's no point for a station to encode PPM now if they're not going to print that. Maybe if their subscription price was somewhat affordable, more stations would subscribe. This is going to have the opposite effect than what they want. My NJ clients who are smaller stations can't shell out the $20k for the book. The topline number wasn't used for sales, but it at least let you know which way the wind was blowing in a general sense.

It really is time for someone else to come in and measure radio, and do a better job than Arbitron does. The PPM sample size is a joke, especially if you're not a top rated station. 5 people could control your destiny out of the entire sample.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, there's no point for a station to encode PPM now if they're not going to print that.

Agencies see the full numbers, even if the station can not sell off them. Since it costs nothing to encode, why would anyone not encode.

Maybe if their subscription price was somewhat affordable, more stations would subscribe.

It costs what it costs. Arbitron is entitled to a profit, and the methodology of the PPM is very expensive.

This is going to have the opposite effect than what they want.

What they want is for stations that sell with the data to pay for it. if they don't pay for it, then they need to find a different way of selling. Simple.

My NJ clients who are smaller stations can't shell out the $20k for the book.

A station that does not find a good return on investment for ratings is likely one that could not convert the cost of ratings into sales anyway. Thus, this is a moot point.

The topline number wasn't used for sales, but it at least let you know which way the wind was blowing in a general sense.

I can't count how many times I have seen local direct salespeople using copies of 12+ rankers from the newspaper or some online or trade source. It won't make a sale, but can help... so why should they get this stuff for free.

The PPM sample size is a joke, especially if you're not a top rated station.

The PPM sample is the size that radio is willing to pay for. Arbitron is always willing to increase sample if all subscribers in a market are willing to pay the cost. This is a matter that is clearly not Arbitron's fault... and nobody is going to be able to do it for less, either.

 

[xmusicmatt]

There is still a reason to encode, people who sub get the full numbers.. They removed non subscribers from the public listings...

Kinda stinks... We'll never know what WFME's share is now and it appears KLove doesn't subscribe either..or WBAI-FM which always holds down at the bottom despite it's decent signal...

I read in one of the trades a spokesperson from Arbs said they made this change starting with the March #s to protect their Intellectual property. So I am guessing if someone doesn't sub. we'll never see the "beauty contest" (6+ numbers) ever again in public..

 

[WNTIRadio]

They charge what they charge, but it's time for someone else to enter the game. Just because a car costs $80,000 doesn't mean it's worth it.

The public broadcasters I contract for get it through the RRC for a reasonable price. Some kind of break is needed for a smaller operator. A big market operator can eat that kind of cost in returns. To a small market operator, that's a salary. So I don't believe that it's a moot point. When you're the only game in town, you can gouge. Go to Long Island or some other place with limited ingress and egress and buy some gasoline (Catalina Island too) and see what it costs. Same principle here. Not saying that Arb shouldn't exist, but that there should be competition in the ratings market. Time for someone else to step up to the plate.

 

[reelyreal]

They charge what they charge, but it's time for someone else to enter the game. Just because a car costs $80,000 doesn't mean it's worth it.

The public broadcasters I contract for get it through the RRC for a reasonable price. Some kind of break is needed for a smaller operator. A big market operator can eat that kind of cost in returns. To a small market operator, that's a salary. So I don't believe that it's a moot point. When you're the only game in town, you can gouge. Go to Long Island or some other place with limited ingress and egress and buy some gasoline (Catalina Island too) and see what it costs. Same principle here. Not saying that Arb shouldn't exist, but that there should be competition in the ratings market. Time for someone else to step up to the plate.

Isn't that exactly what Nielson tried to do for two years before it dropped radio in 2010?

There's also Eastlan, which is no fan of Arbitron's new policy:

http://www.fmqb.com/article.asp?id=2431661

Eastlan's in about 90 markets.

 

[TimeIsTight]

Since it costs nothing to encode, why would anyone not encode.

At first, you would expect all stations to want to encode, but, apparently, there are stations that don't want prove-able facts to obfuscate their sales pitches and procedures. Without any ratings numbers it is far easier to convince a local small businessman that the station has far more listeners or influence than it really does.

In the NYC area, there are several "block time" AM broadcasters which don't encode. There is also, at least, one group owned station that caters to the "retirement crowd" that purposely doesn't encode, but has shown up in diary books in other states that its signal reaches. Whether it doesn't encode to avoid charges of using information it doesn't pay for, or because it doesn't want the reality of its local audience size to influence its spot sales to smaller and less sophisticated local businesses, many of whom buy spots mostly because the business owner listens to the station and likes to hear it advertised on the radio, is a good question.

Surprisingly, some once big name AM call letter stations have disappeared from the ratings because they, apparently, don't subscribe to or sell spots by ratings. Salem's Christian block time WMCA, and its sister 50-kw Conservative Talk WNYM aren't rated. Bloomberg's 50-kw business news station WBBR is not rated either, nor is Disney's WQEW, along with some college stations, and suburban stations, which do subscribe in embedded markets but also have a large enough audience to show up in the metro ratings. From now on, the "local" stations will only be rated in their embedded or adjacent markets, and the metro stations will only show up in the publicly reported metro ratings and "never the twain shall meet." They will both exist only in separate universes as far as the general public can tell.

There are indications Arbitron executives understand that the changes will make news stories and buzz about the radio industry less interesting and less accurate, but apparently there were so many sales type free loaders who were illegally profiting from public information paid for by others that Arbitron, and its customers thought the changes were necessary.

 

[badjef]

A station that does not find a good return on investment for ratings is likely one that could not convert the cost of ratings into sales anyway.

The key line to the whole argument.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[Mike Schwartz]

This is really turning into some joke. I just checked the Nassau Suffolk rangings and found just 6 stations listed!!

http://www.radio-info.com/markets/nassau-suffolk

 

[TimeIsTight]

This is really turning into some joke. I just checked the Nassau Suffolk rangings and found just 6 stations listed!!

The Hamptons-Riverhead market on Long Island will probably show less than that.

It's the same story all over the country, in New Jersey the Middlesex-Somerset-Union market just shows four stations, Monmouth-Ocean will probably show in the same ballpark, while the Sussex, Morristown, and Trenton markets may now only show two stations each.

Several big NYC AMs, WFAN, WOR, WABC, WCBS, often showed up in the public Philly reports and never will again.

As I said earlier in this thread:

From now on, the "local" stations will only be rated in their embedded or adjacent markets, and the metro stations will only show up in the publicly reported metro ratings and "never the twain shall meet." They will both exist only in separate universes as far as the general public can tell.

It seems a lot of stations around the country weren't paying for Arbitron ratings, but were still, illegally, using the publicly published information to sell advertising. Arbitron was getting ripped off, and stations that did pay for ratings were complaining.

 

[davideduardo]

The Hamptons-Riverhead market on Long Island will probably show less than that.

The Hamptons Riverhead market was retired two years ago. There is no book... just the Nassau Suffolk one.

 

[badjef]

This is really turning into some joke. I just checked the Nassau Suffolk rangings and found just 6 stations listed!!

The Hamptons-Riverhead market on Long Island will probably show less than that.

It's the same story all over the country, in New Jersey the Middlesex-Somerset-Union market just shows four stations, Monmouth-Ocean will probably show in the same ballpark, while the Sussex, Morristown, and Trenton markets may now only show two stations each.

Several big NYC AMs, WFAN, WOR, WABC, WCBS, often showed up in the public Philly reports and never will again.

As I said earlier in this thread:

From now on, the "local" stations will only be rated in their embedded or adjacent markets, and the metro stations will only show up in the publicly reported metro ratings and "never the twain shall meet." They will both exist only in separate universes as far as the general public can tell.

It seems a lot of stations around the country weren't paying for Arbitron ratings, but were still, illegally, using the publicly published information to sell advertising. Arbitron was getting ripped off, and stations that did pay for ratings were complaining.

The Monmouth/Ocean stations don't have market-wide coverage. And you are only talking (commercially, Hubcity): 92.7, 94.3, 95.9, 99.7, 98.5, 100.1, 105.7, 106.3, and 107.1. On AM: 1160, 1310, 1410. Out of that, there are only 3 owners.

Welcome to the future.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[wadio]

It's a smart business model to give something away as a tease for your "premium" product. Software makers know that and Arbitron has wisely been doing it for years. This new anal-retentive lock-down will surely lead to shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[reelyreal]

It's a smart business model to give something away as a tease for your "premium" product. Software makers know that and Arbitron has wisely been doing it for years. This new anal-retentive lock-down will surely lead to shooting themselves in the foot.

I disagree. Those who have always bought the book to sell the book will continue to buy the book. There's still some tease out there, just not as much of a tease. Besides, they're the only game in town until you get down into the small markets where Eastlan operates.

They've got a lock on the game, there's nobody else to go to. Arbitron will continue to rake in an obscene amount of money.