Would Merlin flip EMP to Alternative?

[RadioPhillyFan]

Seriously Merlin. NewsTalk FM clearly is a bad idea - You own an FM in the largest market in the English Speaking world, how bout using it for the last format gap?

I know, everyone is going to agree here that NYC needs an alternative station. Here in Philly, our 104.5 gets so much praise, Radio 104.5 IS perfect for NYC. Merlin needs to try something like it.

So, my fellow "radio freaks", how about we do something about it? Maybe if we mass-contact Merlin, and tell them we want an Alternative station, they'll listen? I don't think anyone in their right mind would ignore a board of "radio-freaks".

This kind of thing has worked before.

 

[HHH]

Part of the reason why talk and news-talk can be attractive is that you can generally run more advertizing in those formats than you can in music-driven formats. Every feature.....traffic, sports, weather, time, somebody opens a door, can be sold with a "sponsored by...."

Actually, I still think that a country format, run lean but with good drive time shows, would be successful in New York.

It is the biggest music format that has no representation in the Big Apple.

 

[nd2023]

Maybe they could buy 94.7 and bring RXP back.

 

[TimeIsTight]

So, my fellow "radio freaks", how about we do something about it? Maybe if we mass-contact Merlin, and tell them we want an Alternative station, they'll listen? I don't think anyone in their right mind would ignore a board of "radio-freaks".

The Merlin guys did a whole lot of expensive and extensive homework before they ever spent a dime on station licenses. They are well aware of the options, and they also read the "radio boards," although they probably discount most posts as coming from the clueless. ( if you've been in the business you know how the "suits" think)

Because the core of the NY Market has certain ethnic population characteristics, certain formats like alternative, country, and even rock now work fine in the rimshot suburbs, but are a waste of signal in the city itself, and in the surrounding urban counties.

WNYE offers "Alternative" six-hours every morning on a full-market signal. Take a look at the ratings for yourself, 86,000 listeners a week. WFUV offers adult alternative on a core market signal, with 274,000 listeners a week. Up in Westchester rimshot commercial Alternative WXPK, draws 200,000 listeners a week. The music is there, the big audience is not. Merlin will do better sticking with news than with an alternative like Alternative. It already has more listeners than all the Alternative formats in the market combined. And I say that as an Alternative listener.

 

[Jeffrey]

Actually, I still think that a country format, run lean but with good drive time shows, would be successful in New York.

With all due respect comments like this typically come from those who don't know New York, understand it's demographics, jaded attitude and commuting habits. New Yorkers don't have cars. It's not called drive time here and country doesn't, hasn't and won't work.
Not to mention the northern and southern suburbs now have local country stations so the likelyhood of a class A county station is even less than it has been in a while.

 

[Jersey Maiden]

So, my fellow "radio freaks", how about we do something about it? Maybe if we mass-contact Merlin, and tell them we want an Alternative station, they'll listen? I don't think anyone in their right mind would ignore a board of "radio-freaks".

The Merlin guys did a whole lot of expensive and extensive homework before they ever spent a dime on station licenses. They are well aware of the options, and they also read the "radio boards," although they probably discount most posts as coming from the clueless. ( if you've been in the business you know how the "suits" think)

Because the core of the NY Market has certain ethnic population characteristics, certain formats like alternative, country, and even rock now work fine in the rimshot suburbs, but are a waste of signal in the city itself, and in the surrounding urban counties.

WNYE offers "Alternative" six-hours every morning on a full-market signal. Take a look at the ratings for yourself, 86,000 listeners a week. WFUV offers adult alternative on a core market signal, with 274,000 listeners a week. Up in Westchester rimshot commercial Alternative WXPK, draws 200,000 listeners a week. The music is there, the big audience is not. Merlin will do better sticking with news than with an alternative like Alternative. It already has more listeners than all the Alternative formats in the market combined. And I say that as an Alternative listener.

First of all, many insiders from Merlin blabbed to the media about how Walter Sabo apparently didn't do any homework on what women wanted to hear (shoes and chocolate anyone?) Second, you really can't compare WNYE and WFUV to commercial stations like WRXP and WRFF even though they all fall under the alternative format. The Alternative Side's hardcore hipster playlist has A LOT more in common with a college station than RXP. Which by the way, had a final book of 2.5 and more than half of the 0.7 that EMP got for February. Even Free FM managed to crack the 1.0 mark. Personally, I believe that had RXP not been sold, it could have got similar numbers to Hot 97 in a few more months.

To Philly Fan, there was once a New York Times article about the public comment files of TV and radio stations. They mentioned that WEMP had a whole "stack" of papers from angry fans demanding for the return of RXP.

 

[TimeIsTight]

First of all, many insiders from Merlin blabbed to the media about how Walter Sabo apparently didn't do any homework on what women wanted to hear (shoes and chocolate anyone?)

That may be very true, but the Big Money Boys, the Chicago investment bankers, first had to be sold on the concept as far as target market revenue generation and the prospects for long-term investment gains. They are interested in building a major market news brand with growing value, not in owning a few somewhat profitable music stations in major markets.

It appears, Sabo did not do his homework on what women wanted to hear, or, at least, how they wanted it presented and how best to promote its existence and usefulness to them. To be fair, it didn't last long and wasn't pushed on TV or in other ad media.

Which by the way, had a final book of 2.5 and more than half of the 0.7 that EMP got for February.

Unfortunately, RXP had longer than normal chance to prove itself, and didn't. Didn't it exist for about 3.5-years? If the decision hadn't been made to sell the station because Emmis had a big loan payment due last September, the format would have been dumped a lot sooner.

Second, you really can't compare WNYE and WFUV to commercial stations like WRXP and WRFF even though they all fall under the alternative format. The Alternative Side's hardcore hipster playlist has A LOT more in common with a college station than RXP.

Granted there would be a playlist and appeal difference on a commercial station, but not enough, and the cume WRXP left with, and the cume figures for NYE and FUV show there isn't adequate interest in the format to maximize profits from a full market signal.

Don't forget there are also the income, education, and lifestyle differences that many advertisers look at when selecting which format to place their spots on. Those differences impact the numbers that really matter, which are on the very bottom line that says "profits." An all news station can theoretically have a smaller audience than a music station, but take in a lot more ad revenue and possibly make a bigger profit because it has a foreground audience, can squeeze in more spots an hour, and its audience may have higher incomes and a more desirable lifestyle.

there was once a New York Times article about the public comment files of TV and radio stations. They mentioned that WEMP had a whole "stack" of papers from angry fans demanding for the return of RXP.

That always happens when a station changes formats, and since the FCC doesn't involve itself with format choices the complaints fall on very deaf ears even if the FCC decides to look through the public files.

By the way, just in case you didn't know. In order to get RXP and the new Chicago FM News station, Merlin also had to take a second Chicago FM to make the deal happen. It still owns Classic Rocker WLUP in Chicago, which has a 3.5 and a cume of 1.5-million. That is the same size cume as WBBM, which is the CBS all newser in Chicago, and which is also in second place in the ratings with a 4.7. Merlin knows it could do better in the short term by playing music, but it's big money backers are more interested in being very profitable long term news investment tortoises, than quick buck music format rabbits.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Merlin still owns Classic Rocker WLUP in Chicago, which has a 3.5 and a cume of 1.5-million. That is the same size cume as WBBM, which is the CBS all newser in Chicago, and which is also in second place in the ratings with a 4.7. Merlin knows it could do better in the short term by playing music, but it's big money backers are more interested in being very profitable long term news investment tortoises, than quick buck music format rabbits.

WLUP is Merlin's life support, though. Without it, they might have had to flip one of their news stations. I don't think Merlin will make it here in Philly, and they're looking at just the Philly Markerwould be a critical mistake - KYW covers the cities that are in the Philly Metro but arbitron gave their own market. (Wilmington, Trenton, etc) If Merlin doesn't cover traffic and news there, who would bother? And Merlin ready mispelled some of our suburbs, their first mistake before they even went on-air. If they ignore our metro as a whole, they're missing out on some of our highest growing areas, and highest populated. New Castle County, De it can't get KYW as well as Delaware County, PA (county just above New Castle County, DE) so Merlin could use that to it's advantage.

Unless they're pelting their columns with "sponsered by" - they more then likely are in the poorhouse. Granted, long term investments should pay off, once that shoes and chocolate stunt is forgotton.

But as most people say "Why fix what's not broken?" - so why would they change their news radio to Merlin at all? I honestly don't notice a big enough difference in sound quality with KYW AM's sound and a talker FM like 101.5 NJ to care. KYW can't reach some people, but WIP-HD2 covers where they were forced to null for XEEP. And then there's parts of Philly's Metro but not market that are some fifty miles away and can't pick up KYW.

Merlin needs to know this kind of thing before it starts here in Philly, they need to know about Philly Radio is being listened to everywhere within an hour and a half, KYW has share in Allentown and Reading - although they aren't in the Philly Metro (although they are connected by SEPTA and the areas in between Philly and these cities are built up).

If Merlin ignores Salem, Cecil, New Castle, Cumberland and Berks counties, they'll fail. Because that's at least 1,000,000 potential listeners who will label it as "downtown only" content.

Is Merlin covering all of NYC? Is their content good?

These questions are important.

Wilmington, Trenton, Vineland - three cities that are vital to our Philly economy and metropolitan area. Not in our market, but KYW covers what goes on there. It'd be like Merlin ignoring long island to NYC. Many people live there and travel from there to the hub of the metro (and country in this case.) New York City.

I'm honestly expecting Merlin to have to flip the Philly News FM by 2014 to pay for the larger markets to try and keep them alive.

 

[recto101]

Seriously Merlin. NewsTalk FM clearly is a bad idea - You own an FM in the largest market in the English Speaking world, how bout using it for the last format gap?

I know, everyone is going to agree here that NYC needs an alternative station. Here in Philly, our 104.5 gets so much praise, Radio 104.5 IS perfect for NYC. Merlin needs to try something like it.

So, my fellow "radio freaks", how about we do something about it? Maybe if we mass-contact Merlin, and tell them we want an Alternative station, they'll listen? I don't think anyone in their right mind would ignore a board of "radio-freaks".

This kind of thing has worked before.

I listened to WEMP airchecks they seem more like a gossip station. I say make WEMP more like Etv or TMZ on radio.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't think Merlin will make it here in Philly, and they're looking at just the Philly Markerwould be a critical mistake - KYW covers the cities that are in the Philly Metro but arbitron gave their own market. (Wilmington, Trenton, etc) If Merlin doesn't cover traffic and news there, who would bother? And Merlin ready mis pelled some of our suburbs, their first mistake before they even went on-air. If they ignore our metro as a whole, they're missing out on some of our highest growing areas, and highest populated. New Castle County, De it can't get KYW as well as Delaware County, PA (county just above New Castle County, DE) so Merlin could use that to it's advantage.


If Merlin ignores Salem, Cecil, New Castle, Cumberland and Berks counties, they'll fail. Because that's at least 1,000,000 potential listeners who will label it as "downtown only" content.

The transactional business is based on ratings in the 8 county metro. In those areas, WIP and WKDN cover, with a 5 mv/m and 65 dbu respectively, almost identical populations. Neither, in fact, puts a great signal over all those 8 counties... although both put signals where most of the population is concentrated (KYW's only moderately deep null is to protect 1050 in NY... the null towards Mexico is truly very gentle and does not affect metro coverage all that significantly).

The battle will be fought in those 8 counties because few radio buys consolidate other markets (Trenton, Wilmington, Atlantic City) for analytics. The key elements, beyond programming, will involve the unhipness of AM and the better quality of FM.

 

[TimeIsTight]

KYW covers the cities that are in the Philly Metro but arbitron gave their own market. (Wilmington, Trenton, etc) If Merlin doesn't cover traffic and news there, who would bother?

If Merlin ignores Salem, Cecil, New Castle, Cumberland and Berks counties, they'll fail. Because that's at least 1,000,000 potential listeners who will label it as "downtown only" content.

Merlin will be selling spots to advertisers who are interested in the Arbitron Philly Market, and will base their purchases on the numbers there. Extra listeners in other markets won't matter in that math. If Arbitron doesn't count areas as Philly, neither will the advertisers, and listeners there won't show up in the ratings that matter either. No real point in making extra efforts to reach them and adding confusing clutter to traffic reports etc.

Merlin does cover the entire NY Radio Market.

But as most people say "Why fix what's not broken?" - so why would they change their news radio to Merlin at all?

What's broken is that a lot of younger people NEVER change bands and listen to ANYTHING on AM, more-so in Philly than in NYC.

Merlin is trying to create an all-news alternative for them. It's top executives have said that they aren't going after existing AM all news stations, they are trying to build a new younger base of all news listeners who do their listening on FM.

The question really is: Are these younger FM-only listeners really interested in the information all-news radio has to offer?

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

What's broken is that a lot of younger people NEVER change bands and listen to ANYTHING on AM, more-so in Philly than in NYC.

Philly has two top ten AM's (PHT only really during Phillies games)

KYW, the cities most listened to and known radio station.

PHT, lesser known to many, but still a popular AM station. I think a lot of people listen to AM radio here, WFYL-AM also gets a 1.0 share, which truly is barely worth anything. The 12.0 KYW pulled a few books ago was proof AM isn't dead, yet.

Point is, people in Philly do listen to AM. Few months back, one of my sons friends, asked me to put on KYW actually once. I was surprised someone so young actually listened to AM. I asked him what else he listened to, he said 96.5 and 93.3.

 

[TimeIsTight]

PHT, lesser known to many, but still a popular AM station. I think a lot of people listen to AM radio here, WFYL-AM also gets a 1.0 share, which truly is barely worth anything. The 12.0 KYW pulled a few books ago was proof AM isn't dead, yet.

Currently, without the Phillies, but with Rush Limbaugh, WPHT has 363,000 individual listeners a week (cume)

That compares with a cume of 1.7-million for AC station WBEB-FM, and a cume of 1.2-million for PHT's sister FM, Classic Hits WOGL.
And there are other Philly FM's playing in that same league, but the only AM that comes close is KYW.

Unfortunately, WFYL-AM doesn't have a 1.O, it has a 0.1. It's cume in the latest period is 25,000 and it didn't even show up in the prior two ratings periods.

Other than CBS-owned KYW, and WPHT during baseball season, most Philly AMs are out rated in the Philadelphia market by rimshot FMs from nearby markets like WSTW from Delaware, and WKXW and WPST from Trenton. It's going to be interesting to see how much WPHT-AM's ratings are hurt this coming season because the baseball Phillies will also be heard on FM 94 WIP this year. CBS, which owns both stations, is hurting its AM with this move, but the team may insist that the games be carried on PHT for years to come because its AM signal keeps so many out of town fans in touch with the team, but those out of towners don't count in the station ratings.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

PHT, lesser known to many, but still a popular AM station. I think a lot of people listen to AM radio here, WFYL-AM also gets a 1.0 share, which truly is barely worth anything. The 12.0 KYW pulled a few books ago was proof AM isn't dead, yet.

Currently, without the Phillies, but with Rush Limbaugh, WPHT has 363,000 individual listeners a week (cume)

That compares with a cume of 1.7-million for AC station WBEB-FM, and a cume of 1.2-million for PHT's sister FM, Classic Hits WOGL.
And there are other Philly FM's playing in that same league, but the only AM that comes close is KYW.

Unfortunately, WFYL-AM doesn't have a 1.O, it has a 0.1. It's cume in the latest period is 25,000 and it didn't even show up in the prior two ratings periods.

Other than CBS-owned KYW, and WPHT during baseball season, most Philly AMs are out rated in the Philadelphia market by rimshot FMs from nearby markets like WSTW from Delaware, and WKXW and WPST from Trenton. It's going to be interesting to see how much WPHT-AM's ratings are hurt this coming season because the baseball Phillies will also be heard on FM 94 WIP this year. CBS, which owns both stations, is hurting its AM with this move, but the team may insist that the games be carried on PHT for years to come because its AM signal keeps so many out of town fans in touch with the team, but those out of towners don't count in the station ratings.

I didn't mean FYL, I meant NTP. Sorry, mixed up which station was which.

Also, Rush is off PHT now.

Also, rimshot PST has had a 2.5 before. It's beaten many Philly FM's. And it's a CHR that only reaches about 50% of Philly. Just goes to show Q102 needs to change a few things...

 

[TimeIsTight]

Also, Rush is off PHT now.

I am assuming you mean that Rush is off for the weekend????

If Rush were not still on CBS-owned WPHT's schedule in Philadelphia, it would be BIG NEWS.

The station did drop both Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck from its schedule and neither are currently
heard in the full Philadelphia market. Although dedicated Hannity fans can pick him up on WABC from New York, or WILM out of Wilmington, Delaware and put up with the static. Beck fans in Philly (and New York) are out of luck.

I didn't mean FYL, I meant NTP. Sorry, mixed up which station was which.

Not to split hairs, but WNTP (once 50-kw AM rock and roll legend WIBG) only had 141,000 listeners a week in the latest rating period, and had a 0.9 average rating. Again, below the audience size of out of town rimshot FMs, and a small fraction of the audience of most local FMs. Again, KYW is the "only" AM station that is really still in the Big Game in Philly radio, and WPHT is down and fading fast.

 

[RadioPhillyFan]

Also, Rush is off PHT now.

I am assuming you mean that Rush is off for the weekend????

If Rush were not still on CBS-owned WPHT's schedule in Philadelphia, it would be BIG NEWS.

The station did drop both Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck from its schedule and neither are currently
heard in the full Philadelphia market. Although dedicated Hannity fans can pick him up on WABC from New York, or WILM out of Wilmington, Delaware and put up with the static. Beck fans in Philly (and New York) are out of luck.

I didn't mean FYL, I meant NTP. Sorry, mixed up which station was which.

Not to split hairs, but WNTP (once 50-kw AM rock and roll legend WIBG) only had 141,000 listeners a week in the latest rating period, and had a 0.9 average rating. Again, below the audience size of out of town rimshot FMs, and a small fraction of the audience of most local FMs. Again, KYW is the "only" AM station that is really still in the Big Game in Philly radio, and WPHT is down and fading fast.

Yes, I meant he was off for weekend

And yes, 0.9 is nothing at all.

And yes again, PHT was once in the top seven now it's in bottom seven.

and once more yes again - KYW is the only thing really keeping AM radio in Philly.

Do you know what I always say?

"The death of AM radio is when Flagship AM's move to FM".

So, when Philly loses KYW-AM, Pittsburgh loses KDKA-AM and Erie loses WJET-AM - AM will be history in PA!

 

[Jersey Maiden]

Granted there would be a playlist and appeal difference on a commercial station, but not enough, and the cume WRXP left with, and the cume figures for NYE and FUV show there isn't adequate interest in the format to maximize profits from a full market signal.

Don't forget there are also the income, education, and lifestyle differences that many advertisers look at when selecting which format to place their spots on. Those differences impact the numbers that really matter, which are on the very bottom line that says "profits." An all news station can theoretically have a smaller audience than a music station, but take in a lot more ad revenue and possibly make a bigger profit because it has a foreground audience, can squeeze in more spots an hour, and its audience may have higher incomes and a more desirable lifestyle.

Hold on, wasn't RXP's final cume similar PLJ's numbers? It's not a blockbuster number but it's not a small one either. I'll remind you again, Free FM actually cracked the 1.0 mark and look at how long they lasted. WEMP has yet to do that. Sure, there are quite a few spoken word formats that are doing well in other cities but the vast majority of them didn't start from scratch like Merlin's stations.

That said, I do agree that sometimes, the demographics are more important than the actual numbers. What's the stereotype of a typical alternative fan? Hipsters. And quite a few of them are pretty anti-consumerist (one of the most anti-mainstream things I can think of). That would scare off the advertisers. When my parents put on 880, I tend to hear a lot of commercials for bling like Rolex and luxury cars. But I don't believe Merlin is going for the same affluent audience as 880 (or getting enough numbers from ANY demographic for that matter).

 

[TimeIsTight]

Hold on, wasn't RXP's final cume similar PLJ's numbers?

You're right, RXP and PLJ had cume numbers in the same ballpark. But there was a "reported" big difference in billing, that could be attributed to the differences in advertiser attraction to the Adult Contemporary PLJ audience versus the RXP Rocker types.

In the embedded suburban New Jersey market of Middlesex-Somerset-Union, PLJ was up near the top, and RXP was pretty far down. Parts of those NJ counties are in the "NJ Wealth Belt" an area of great interest to advertisers.

The attraction is that "soccer mom" thing, targeting listeners who have professional corporate jobs, higher incomes, live in McMansions, drive SUVs and buy lots of consumer goods. While neither RXP nor PLJ was setting the ratings world on fire, PLJ was taking in a lot more money (thanks to their devoted soccer mom audience) than RXP, and the bottom line is the bottom line.

Free FM actually cracked the 1.0 mark and look at how long they lasted. WEMP has yet to do that.

Free FM was CBS, and all they wanted was to continue to make money in a certain target demo with stations they already had, while Merlin is a startup, that acquired stations to specifically build a certain national brand with a longer term specific investment goal in mind. Times are different, reasons are different, and the companies are very different, there is no reason that Merlin needs to follow anybody else's timetable for measuring success or failure.

Unfortunately, the RXP format was doomed to go away, whether the station was sold or not, it just didn't bring in the bucks it needed to. And unfortunately for rock fans, even if Merlin eventually throws in the towel on news, it's not going back to RXP, that format has already proved itself "inadequate." And for those of us who also like jazz, Merlin won't bring back the "Smooth Jazz" format that held the frequency for so many year prior to RXP, either. It will probably try some other spoken word foreground format designed to appeal to the same target demos it was originally aiming at with news. Its all about pulling in the listeners that advertisers "most" want to talk to, and getting as much of their close up attention as possible. And those listeners are definitely not Hipsters. But, no doubt, Hipsters are now having more fun. Hard to believe, but you're likely to be a soccer mom sooner than you think, so Rock On while you can, even if you can't always hear the music you want on the radio. That is what they made i-Pods for.

 

[Jersey Maiden]

Hold on, wasn't RXP's final cume similar PLJ's numbers?

You're right, RXP and PLJ had cume numbers in the same ballpark. But there was a "reported" big difference in billing, that could be attributed to the differences in advertiser attraction to the Adult Contemporary PLJ audience versus the RXP Rocker types.

In the embedded suburban New Jersey market of Middlesex-Somerset-Union, PLJ was up near the top, and RXP was pretty far down. Parts of those NJ counties are in the "NJ Wealth Belt" an area of great interest to advertisers.

The attraction is that "soccer mom" thing, targeting listeners who have professional corporate jobs, higher incomes, live in McMansions, drive SUVs and buy lots of consumer goods. While neither RXP nor PLJ was setting the ratings world on fire, PLJ was taking in a lot more money (thanks to their devoted soccer mom audience) than RXP, and the bottom line is the bottom line.

RXP was actually in the middle of the pack for Middlesex-Somerset-Union. Over there, they pulled in a 3.0 for their final book. That's about the same as Hot 97's latest numbers (which was apparently losing ad revenue even when its ratings were better). But you're right that soccer moms are bigger cash cows than hipsters. At least there's DHA for rock, even if it plays too much of the classics you can always get on the Q.

And unfortunately for rock fans, even if Merlin eventually throws in the towel on news, it's not going back to RXP

I believe that from the way Randy Michaels swoons over spoken word. But let's see how long Merlin lasts first. I wonder if the stations will automatically go back to Emmis or if they'll just get sold again when they go broke.

 

[TimeIsTight]

I wonder if the stations will automatically go back to Emmis or if they'll just get sold again when they go broke.

Actually, Emmis holds an ownership stake in Merlin, that was part of the deal for the stations. Emmis, had this big debt payment due last September, and it had to make a deal that gave it enough cash to pay the debt off. That is why it had to sell three stations, it made a deal with Merlin to get the cash it needed and then took an ownership stake on top of that.

The stations will not go back to Emmis, unless it suddenly has a lot more money to pay Merlin's other investors.

And no, Merlin will not go broke. The deep pockets investors may decide to sell, but they have more than enough money to keep Merlin floating for however long it takes to get the right price.

Right now, it looks like the investors are still committed to all-news, they just put up the money to buy that FM in Philadelphia. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't have faith that Merlin will succeed. They also have quite a track record in making lots of money by starting new companies that take several years to click. This kind of early disappointment is all part of the risk/reward game they play, and have played well.