Would Salem Flip WNTP?

[John1]

In Boston, Salem is flipping its talk station on 1150 to Spanish Contemporary Christian according to the Boston board. The station had somewhat the same hosts as WNTP from the Salem talk lineup. The Boston market is much more competitive with AM & FM talk stations than Philadelphia, but would Salem give up on WNTP here and maybe go (back) to Contemporary Christian music or another format? Thw WNTP ratings have never really grown. I doubt they'd go to a Spanish format here, but could they decide to drop the talk?
In New York they run two AM Christian talk stations on 570 and 970 - maybe that would be another choice for 990?

 

[amfmsw]

WNTP, the once great Rocker of the East, is a radio station waiting to happen. It's like a Shakespeare tragedy. Very sad. I know the owners are trying their best, but the recipe just doesn't cook. They have their political and religious agenda, and prime outlets for them. It's their's to use as they wish. But the Delaware Valley doesn't want to hear it. Same as WMCA in New York.

I just saw the ratings for Ft. Wayne. The stalwart Rocker of the '60 there, WOWO-AM is still #1. WABC is very respectable, as is WBZ, WEEI, WWKB, WBT for a not-so-gracefully aging medium in the 21st century. Both Philly's old friends, WFIL & (WIBG) WNTP have better signals than in their heyday, but no ones home. Both are like a deserted mansion, proud and beautiful in their day, now just greying and old in our day.

I think it begs the question: What would YOU do with those signals in 2008?

 

[WTUX]

Salem's original game plan sounded good. Take the heritage AM Top 40 stations that baby boomers grew up with, turn them into religious for the boomers who moved on with their lives into families, careers, etc.

In Philadelphia, they were able to get both 560 and 990. In New York City, they had to settle for just WMCA, since WABC was obviously not up for grabs. But the results show their plan did not work. What else could be done with them? Not much at this point. The folks at WABC, WBZ, WOWO, WBT, etc. did not let their stations die. They re-invented themselves for the 80's 90's and the new century. WFIL and 990 were basically allowed to die. You cannot bring a dead AM radio station back to life.

 

[wesdev224]

[quote I just saw the ratings for Ft. Wayne. The stalwart Rocker of the '60 there, WOWO-AM is still #1.[/quote]

Back in the 70's, early on Sunday morning after SNL and SCTV would end, I used to DX and was able to pick up WOWO very clearly in Lower Bucks. There was a woman who did an overnight talk show on WOWO at that time. I realize this is asking alot, but does anyone remember her name? One feature I remember, is every week after SNL went off, a young kid used to come on her show and recap the 90 minutes of SNL. His perspectives were interesting for a child of his age.

 

[Phillyradiogeek]

I'm sure Salem is making money with WFIL, as it's largely, if not exclusively, brokered, but I can't see them having any success with WNTP, unless they're REALLY bringing in the dough on those national spots. If their quasi-network is successful in other markets, perhaps it justifies the Philly clearances, but how are their political talk stations in other markets (besides the also limping WMCA in NY)?

 

[DanStrassberg]

I'm sure Salem is making money with WFIL, as it's largely, if not exclusively, brokered, but I can't see them having any success with WNTP, unless they're REALLY bringing in the dough on those national spots. If their quasi-network is successful in other markets, perhaps it justifies the Philly clearances, but how are their political talk stations in other markets (besides the also limping WMCA in NY)?

You sure WMCA is limping? I haven't heard WMCA in a LONG time, but I'm skeptical about the report. A brokered-time station doesn't have to bill all that well to be highly profitable. Also, at Salem's WWDJ 970, also in the New York market, and also, AFAIK, running brokered preaching and teaching (like WMCA), the engineers are in the midst of building out a CP to increase the station's daytime power to 50 kW. To implement that change, Salem paid quite a good price (I read it but can't remember it; I think maybe over $2 million) for a low-power co-channel AM in (IIRC) Aberdeen MD, which has to power down somewhat make WWDJ's power increase work. Remember that a decade or more ago, Salem held a CP to increase WMCA to 50 kW-D/30 kW-N but decided against it and let the CP lapse. Yet, despite the addition of WWDJ to the company's New York cluster, WMCA remains Salem's more prominent New York-area property.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Philly and NYC are liberal Democrat cities, so it's not too surprising that Salem's conservative talk isn't selling well. What conservatives there are would be listening to Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity on WPHT and WABC respectively. It would be interesting to see how Salem's talk stations in more conservative cities fare.

As far as Philly is concerned, I'd have 990 go back to airing CCM/Praise music, but maybe this time use a broader play list including CCM gold from the past 30 years than their competition, the CCM Top 40 oriented WXHL from Christiana, DE that has translators in Delaware County and Philly while keeping 560 Christian Talk and preaching.

 

[WTUX]

When I wrote in my previous post about Salem's game plan, music was very much a part of it. They would buy the two former Top 40 powerhouses in the major markets, try to lure listeners with memories of the call letters (they couldn't get WIBG in Philly, unfortunately) and air preachers and Gospel teaching on one station, CCM on the other.

They faced the same fate of many AM stations trying to air CCM or any form of Gospel music. So little money is coming in that paying prechers have to be aired to pay the bills. Listening drops off and soon you are all brokered talk.

CCM did not make it on 990, in part because they had to add so much time to paying preachers. So they opted to make it all talk. This thread started with the idea of Spanish CCM. I can't see that working any better than English CCM. The music just will not pay the bills on AM.

 

[kzewdude]

I don't think any of the Salem news/talk stations do better than a 1.0 share 12+. Most are .6s, .7s and .8s. Been that way for several years, so it's not like they haven't given the format time to grow. The Salem "talent," Bennett, Gallagher, Hewitt, Medved, etc., is ultra-conservative and deadly dull. That said, I'd guess Salem makes money off the news/talk product as a national entity. Otherwise, they'd make changes. It's a shame, because they have some decent AM signals.

 

[amfmsw]

Reply to Dan:

Yes, WMCA is limping. WOWO-AM is #1 with a 8+ share. WMCA /WWDJ do not even rank in the Top 20. Period.

Now, what WOULD make WFIL/WNTP market leaders again? Music? What format? Talk/News? What programming? Promotions? Marketing?

Would High Fidelity audio help? Could they revive their heritage? Dinosaurs? Relics? If they were FM, what would YOU program?

What would YOU put on the carrier to make them Top 5?

 

[DanStrassberg]

Yes, WMCA is limping. WOWO-AM is #1 with a 8+ share. WMCA /WWDJ do not even rank in the Top 20. Period.

You've completely missed the point! In a market of any size, a brokered-time station does not need to achieve reportable ratings or even a very high portion of market revenues to make a tidy profit for its owner! In the largest of all US markets, that is especially true. I suspect that WMCA's top line must be in the neighborhood of $4 million (I'm basing that on the report that Salem's WEZE Boston had a top line of $2 million last year and its WROL Boston--a Class D AM with low night power--had a top line of $1 million. Those revenue numbers at first appear laughably low for Boston--until you remember that both are brokered-time stations that have very low expenses; the independent program producers bear most of the costs that stations with a "conventional" business model must pay out of revenues.) My guess is that a well-managed brokered-time station with revenues of $4 million can easily bring $2 million to the bottom line and that a station with a conventional business model would need revenues of roughly $16 million to do the same thing. In the brokered-time business, ratings are a complete red herring!

 

[amfmsw]

No, no. I completely agree to your points. I think, however, we're talking about different things. I agree with you that the stations are operated for profitablity, not ratings. In this matter and form, they are as successful as the owners wish.

I'm failing to explain my querry for RATINGS. What would you do to restore these great stations to high listenership levels again?

 

[Rockin Rob]

If Salem were making any profit from the CCM version of 990, one would think they would still be CCM. Salem, to their credit, was one of the first corporate broadcast firms to invest in COMMERCIAL relligious properties. Not only spread the word, but line the pockets. Which is why ZZD started carrying sporting events, to generate a revenue while hoping the fans of the teams would stay around after the game to experience the word of the Lord. Low overhead, yes. However, most people figured this out, but I digress.

The CCM music that can be heard on Reach/Word FM is programmed by Salem ("The Word In Music"), along with "The Word In Praise" (which, I believe, is being used by WBYN and WCHR). Also, "Today's Christian Music" is another SRN-fed/programmed offering, which was the service used on ZZD, it was, esentually, in-house. I do wonder if these stations signed any form of "market exclusivety" clause. Then again, Salem could pull a Clear Channel and demand their programming be pulled back to CC O&O's. I doubt it, but anything is possible.

Why did News Talk 990 fail? Outside of Laura Ingraham, Mike Savage and Dennis Leary, not a strong enough line up. Hugh Hewitt et al are not marquis names, such as Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck. Bill Bennett's "Mornings in America" was the same and doomed to bomb.

So, what to do with WNTP and sister WFIL? With 560, nothing. They are clearly the breadwinner. 990 is a mess. Spanish religion would work as it is a niche format. After sunset, listeners of 690 really have no alternative (figuring 1590 might not hit the segments of the market WPHE can tap during the day). Otherwise, it becomes a dumping ground for brokered and, if Salem is involved, it would retain a religious overtone. They could tap a different audience with "Span-igious" on 990am. I could see Salem launching a "El Word en Espanol" service and run it on NTP 24/7.

Of course, there are other sat-fed formats to go to (ABC's "Timeless" or Jones' "Music Of Your Life" come to mind), outside of the CCM family, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Not only spread the word, but line the pockets. Which is why ZZD started carrying sporting events, to generate a revenue while hoping the fans of the teams would stay around after the game to experience the word of the Lord. Low overhead, yes. However, most people figured this out, but I digress.


I'd not assume the idea was to line their pockets, but maybe to pay some bills and make an income for their corporation ( I don't know if they are considered a non-profit or not, but that would also make a difference), which is what all radio stations try to do. However, your comment brings up another point that needs to be made in regards to religious radio. Many assume it is a evanglistic tool. Sometimes it might work that way as you suggested that someone listening to a game on WZZD would then stay and listen to some CCM music and get saved. More often than not, the only people who listen to religious stations are those of that same faith. So CCM, dollar a hollar, Family Radio, hymns stations pull in those of faith that like that particular format. Those who are not of that faith will tune out as soon as they pick up on the fact that the music is religious. So my guess is WZZD aired sports to help pay the bills rather than as a evangelistic tool.

The problem for WZZD being a music station is that CCM music appeals to a younger demo than hymns or preachers. So being on AM is a liability. If WZZD was on FM, then they probably would do just fine with CCM and CCM gold. The only music you hear on AM today is ethnic music, hymns, Big Band, and Oldies (these last two are becoming very hard to find anywhere AM or FM). All other music is on FM. Maybe WZZD could get Harold Camping to sell them their Family Radio FM station (WKDN 106.9 Camden) to them, then they'd have a chance to succeed with music in the Philly/Wilmington/Trenton area.

Of course, as non-comms do not show on Arbitron 12+ numbers, we don't know how well WDKN (Family Radio) is doing, but as they are listener supported like WHYY-FM or WRTI they must be pulling in enough listeners who contribute to keep that powerful FM signal running and on the air. My guess is if Family Radio ever decides to sell WDKN there will be some major money to be made as that station has a strong signal from Trenton to Wilmington making it a viable station for the Philly market and Wilmington and Trenton. I know a few years ago Family Radio sold an FM station on the West Coast and bought an AM station, because it was less expensive to operate, so who knows, maybe someday Family Radio will move to 990 and Salem will move to 106.9.

 

[New Castle]

WNTP is not a bad sounding station when it comes to its basic shell. They are smoother in their on-air operation than WPHT. It is put together pretty well. Their news and traffic breaks seem to be to the point and sound as good as anything in Philly. However, I do think they rely on some weak talk shows. They are too high brow conservative for the working class that dominates Philly, and anyone who can afford to leave the nightmare that has become the Philadelphia metro generally does as soon as they retire. Dennis Prager is a snooze; Medved is a Philly boy by birth, but not too exciting; Hugh Hewitt doesn't do much for me either. Their best programs are Bennett and Ingraham and Savage who they hide in overnights, and the weekends are dreadful. The biggest problem is all the DB programs. Granted, there isn't much in the way of really successful syndicated talk radio out side of Rush, Hannitty, Savage, Beck, Ingraham and Levin. They do have Ingraham and Savage. Here's my line-up:
6-9a Bennett
9-Noon Ingraham
Noon-3 Dennis Miller (Db'd only a few hours so it's still fairly fresh)
3-6p Randi Rhodes (she isn't as kooky left as she was a few years ago and is a pretty good broadcaster. You can sample her on 1520. She might have enough charm to dent Hannity)
6-9p Savage
9-6a run the Salem shows like Hewitt, Medved and Gallager, or maybe Bohannon or Bruce Williams or Hendrie. (do overnights matter on that screwball pattern they have anyway)

There really just isn't that much demand for syndicated talk radio in Philly. Philly doesn't need another foreign language station or another Bible beater, but I think having a talk alternative to 1210 is of value.

I'm more concerned about 1210. Outside of Rush, Hannity and the Phils what do they have going for them, except maybe Dom G. And who is this Lou Costello sound alike on in the early evening? Talk about "I think I'll watch Action News". Give me Levin. Smerconish just has never done it for me either. Go back to the bar counselor. Dom G. should be the morning guy. Most of 1210 makes me long for the return of Joel Spivak, Ed Harvey, Bernie Herman, and Bill Corsair. I realize that these guys are probably on some mic in the next dimension, but come on, there must be someone that can do decent local talk in this top 10 market. Their PD Grace must have her head really stuffed in a moist stinky place. There are so many topics in the city of Brother Lee Love that just anger me to no end, and are great fodder for talk radio. There has to be someone to fill the void. If Evil Irv wasn't so much of an oddball, I'd throw him back on the air. Where is Larry Kane and why is he just on cable? I think Wee Willie is still around town. Somebody, anybody..CANADIAN PLEASE!!
There is plenty of cume on AM. Look at 1060.
Really, years ago the big problem in Philly was that KYW sold their CPM so cheaply that no body else could afford to pay the freight for the talent that was needed to make it work. Is that still the case today?

 

[DG02816]

Doubtful Salem would flip 990, but I for one would love seeing something along the lines of a NJ101.5 presentation here, minus the overdone reverb and slam-it-to-the-wall audio processing.
One can dream.....

 

[Rockin Rob]

Not only spread the word, but line the pockets. Which is why ZZD started carrying sporting events, to generate a revenue while hoping the fans of the teams would stay around after the game to experience the word of the Lord. Low overhead, yes. However, most people figured this out, but I digress.


I'd not assume the idea was to line their pockets, but maybe to pay some bills and make an income for their corporation ( I don't know if they are considered a non-profit or not, but that would also make a difference), which is what all radio stations try to do. However, your comment brings up another point that needs to be made in regards to religious radio. Many assume it is a evanglistic tool. Sometimes it might work that way as you suggested that someone listening to a game on WZZD would then stay and listen to some CCM music and get saved. More often than not, the only people who listen to religious stations are those of that same faith. So CCM, dollar a hollar, Family Radio, hymns stations pull in those of faith that like that particular format. Those who are not of that faith will tune out as soon as they pick up on the fact that the music is religious. So my guess is WZZD aired sports to help pay the bills rather than as a evangelistic tool.

The problem for WZZD being a music station is that CCM music appeals to a younger demo than hymns or preachers. So being on AM is a liability. If WZZD was on FM, then they probably would do just fine with CCM and CCM gold. The only music you hear on AM today is ethnic music, hymns, Big Band, and Oldies (these last two are becoming very hard to find anywhere AM or FM). All other music is on FM. Maybe WZZD could get Harold Camping to sell them their Family Radio FM station (WKDN 106.9 Camden) to them, then they'd have a chance to succeed with music in the Philly/Wilmington/Trenton area.

Of course, as non-comms do not show on Arbitron 12+ numbers, we don't know how well WDKN (Family Radio) is doing, but as they are listener supported like WHYY-FM or WRTI they must be pulling in enough listeners who contribute to keep that powerful FM signal running and on the air. My guess is if Family Radio ever decides to sell WDKN there will be some major money to be made as that station has a strong signal from Trenton to Wilmington making it a viable station for the Philly market and Wilmington and Trenton. I know a few years ago Family Radio sold an FM station on the West Coast and bought an AM station, because it was less expensive to operate, so who knows, maybe someday Family Radio will move to 990 and Salem will move to 106.9.

Actually, it was BOTH points, at least that is what management and a few staffers told me. It was set up as a "win-win", these sports get major market clearance and the station gets the revenue from the team brokering the time out. Take Penn State, for example. The plus, as far as ZZD was, was to get the listener to "linger longer" after the game to hear programming that would "change lives".

AFAIK, Salem is run like a corporation (read "for profit"). But, whereas Radio One focuses solely on programming towards African-American audiences, Salem's forte is primarily religious and, recently, conservative secular talk. Sure, music on AM was hamstrung, but they're format was tailored more as a "christian Hot AC", where stations like Reach FM and Word FM are Christian CHR's. TWIP is the traditional religious format, time tested standards of the Christian world.

If Family were to sell KDN to Salem, I would predict a live and local Christian Hot AC/Top 40 format, under the moniker "106.9 The Fish". It would be programmed like a secular CHR, complete with high energy productions and jingles, just the music would be culled from the CCM charts.

 

[wprt949]

If Family were to sell KDN to Salem, I would predict a live and local Christian Hot AC/Top 40 format, under the moniker "106.9 The Fish". It would be programmed like a secular CHR, complete with high energy productions and jingles, just the music would be culled from the CCM charts.
[/quote]

b101.1 would crush the fish if that happend




2008 is the year family radio sells off 106.9