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WPEN and the NEXT real oldies format

M

musicrrrr

Guest
Did anyone REALLY think it would last? It was too good to be true. REAL oldies back on the radio in Philly. It really only lasted for a brief time anyway. On their first day broadcasting they played The Shells "Baby Oh Baby." But within a month it sounded like they were trying to compete with WOGL. They should have known better. Most of the real stuff was gone and they sounded like WOGL did 10 years ago. It didn't have the lustre of a 1520 WKBW or the creativity of 1530 WSAI.

So what's left? WVLT in Vineland? Nah. They have a few good music shows on at night but they lack direction. And like it or not...ON AIR PERSONALITY is an important component especially on oldies shows. The great MUSIC shows lack personality. Truly great jocks are able to SELL and PRESENT the old songs as if they were new. Great music shows are boring if the jocks are boring.

Nettleton was decent but the rest sounded like trained monkeys in my opinion. But that having been said...WILL WE EVER HAVE A REAL OLDIES STATION IN PHILLY AGAIN? I believe the answer is NO. But I hope I am wrong. I heard a rumor about 1310 about a year ago but so far it hasn't happened.

It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local AM that may attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?
 
if WPEN would have had a WFIL or WIBG sound to it maybe it would have worked.it needed a boss jock kinda sound.oldies 950 was bland.when WFIL came back in the 80's it sounded like famous 56 of the 60's and 70's.that's what the oldies should sound like on AM.the right jingles,rockin'jocks and a good mix of music.i loved FIL! that's what WPEN sould have done.
 
Re: WPEN was the LAST real oldies format

> It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local AM that may
> attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?

No, music on AM is a thing of the past. Baby boomers are aging out of the money demos and their oldies are also a thing of the past (like Standards before it).

Don't look for any big changes on AM any time soon. Infinity's KYW, WPHT and WIP are doing OK. Salem's WFIL and WNTP are driven by the company's social agenda. WPEN is the only decent signal left. The rest are poor signal - marginal operations which can only continue operating on some form of brokered programming.

If WPEN's only options if Sports Talk is not profitable are Progressive Talk, Advice/Life-style Talk or Brokered Programming of some sort.

As long as the Geator stays in business, there will be some (brokered) Oldies programming around some place.

> if WPEN would have had a WFIL or WIBG sound to it maybe it
> would have worked.it needed a boss jock kinda sound.oldies
> 950 was bland.when WFIL came back in the 80's it sounded
> like famous 56 of the 60's and 70's.that's what the oldies
> should sound like on AM.the right jingles,rockin'jocks and a
> good mix of music.i loved FIL! that's what WPEN sould have
> done.
>

Recycled WFIL did not last. It did not "work" either. "Work" in radio is determined by ad revenue.
 
> It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local
> AM that may attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?

The only people who would tolerate listening to music on AM are already dead. It's just not a very desirable demo.

Seriously, music formats on the AM band really are no longer viable. I'm sure there are some AM stations someplace where music is working...but it's an anomaly. It definitely isn't gonna fly around here--especially if it's a format with existing competition on the FM band. Oldies 950 was doomed from the get-go. Just about everyone but the freaks at GM predicted that.
 
> Did anyone REALLY think it would last? It was too good to
> be true. REAL oldies back on the radio in Philly. It really
> only lasted for a brief time anyway. On their first day
> broadcasting they played The Shells "Baby Oh Baby." But
> within a month it sounded like they were trying to compete
> with WOGL. They should have known better. Most of the real
> stuff was gone and they sounded like WOGL did 10 years ago.
> It didn't have the lustre of a 1520 WKBW or the creativity
> of 1530 WSAI.
>
> So what's left? WVLT in Vineland? Nah. They have a few
> good music shows on at night but they lack direction. And
> like it or not...ON AIR PERSONALITY is an important
> component especially on oldies shows. The great MUSIC shows
> lack personality. Truly great jocks are able to SELL and
> PRESENT the old songs as if they were new. Great music
> shows are boring if the jocks are boring.
>
> Nettleton was decent but the rest sounded like trained
> monkeys in my opinion. But that having been said...WILL WE
> EVER HAVE A REAL OLDIES STATION IN PHILLY AGAIN? I believe
> the answer is NO. But I hope I am wrong. I heard a rumor
> about 1310 about a year ago but so far it hasn't happened.
>
> It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local
> AM that may attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?
>


Yes....it's WAMS.
 
I think one of the only music formats left on AM that can still make money is Country Classics. You don't need an FM signal, its cheap to run and would have a base loyal audiance. I would think the Beasleys could flip either 800 or 860 and sell it as a combo with powerhouse WXTU. WMID is a great sounding station playing great oldies you don't hear every day, they are also cheap to run and have a loyal audiance. Look what we have here on 1340 compared to Atlantic City. Could one of the Salem outlets grab the WMID sound, probably, but Salem won't do it. I do think if a smaller AM signal would go either CC or WMID type oldies, they would do better than whats on the AM band now-adays. I also do not think the audiance that would listen to AM music is in the grave yet, when WJBR-A was Standards, they had a younger audiance and did pretty well.
 
> I think one of the only music formats left on AM that can
> still make money is Country Classics. You don't need an FM
> signal, its cheap to run and would have a base loyal
> audiance. I would think the Beasleys could flip either 800
> or 860 and sell it as a combo with powerhouse WXTU. WMID is
> a great sounding station playing great oldies you don't hear
> every day, they are also cheap to run and have a loyal
> audiance. Look what we have here on 1340 compared to
> Atlantic City. Could one of the Salem outlets grab the WMID
> sound, probably, but Salem won't do it. I do think if a
> smaller AM signal would go either CC or WMID type oldies,
> they would do better than whats on the AM band now-adays. I
> also do not think the audiance that would listen to AM music
> is in the grave yet, when WJBR-A was Standards, they had a
> younger audiance and did pretty well.
>

Country Classics: Not outside the Deep South; and the audience is still too old.

WJBR: They didn't flip because geezers weren't listening. They flipped because advertisers weren't buying.

WPEN has respectable numbers with Standards but the problem was it was an audience they could not sell.
 
> if WPEN would have had a WFIL or WIBG sound to it maybe it
> would have worked.

No kind of music format would've worked on WPEN once they switched on their wonderful "HD Radio" digital signal. This degrades their audio quality to such an extent that only a talk-based format is tolerable to listen to. The audio fidelity of most AM radios is already bad enough, and WPEN made it even worse by transmitting music that sounded like it was coming through a tinny telephone with a constant hiss in the background. Why would anyone listen to that crappy sound -- plus all the infomercials on weekends, and constant interruptions for baseball games -- when they could switch to WOGL and hear the same exact music with full FM Stereo fidelity, 7 days a week?

Putting Oldies on WPEN was just such a blatantly poor choice that Greater Media would be foolish not to fire any of their employees who ever through it would actually work!
<P ID="signature">______________
noiboc.jpg
</P>
 
Unlistenable audio will kill any music format on AM. And when you have a major FM competitor, you are out of the race before it even starts. If they had left the stereo system on and kept the HD off, they had a chance.

And the jocks? The music system killed them. When the music is programed to play non-stop, giving the jock control only into a stop-set, he/she cannot be very creative.

That is why Jim Nettleton sounded okay. He developed his craft during the days when dj's had to sound good over an 8-second song intro. Quick lines were all you had time for, and he learned well enough to make it to WABC. Liner readers like Charlie and Christy, who are used to only saying what someone else has written, couldn't think fast enough to really sound great. Of course, the best ad-libs are the ones you write and practice long before you open the mike. And when you know before your show starts every song you are going to play, there is no excuse for not being prepared. It takes very good writing ability to make it as a personality jock, which oldies calls for. Unfortunately only Jim has that talent, and even he found it hard given the computer run music system.

One final factor. AM oldies stations at best pull a 1 to 1.5. You know that going into the format.

> Did anyone REALLY think it would last? It was too good to
> be true. REAL oldies back on the radio in Philly. It really
> only lasted for a brief time anyway. On their first day
> broadcasting they played The Shells "Baby Oh Baby." But
> within a month it sounded like they were trying to compete
> with WOGL. They should have known better. Most of the real
> stuff was gone and they sounded like WOGL did 10 years ago.
> It didn't have the lustre of a 1520 WKBW or the creativity
> of 1530 WSAI.
>
> So what's left? WVLT in Vineland? Nah. They have a few
> good music shows on at night but they lack direction. And
> like it or not...ON AIR PERSONALITY is an important
> component especially on oldies shows. The great MUSIC shows
> lack personality. Truly great jocks are able to SELL and
> PRESENT the old songs as if they were new. Great music
> shows are boring if the jocks are boring.
>
> Nettleton was decent but the rest sounded like trained
> monkeys in my opinion. But that having been said...WILL WE
> EVER HAVE A REAL OLDIES STATION IN PHILLY AGAIN? I believe
> the answer is NO. But I hope I am wrong. I heard a rumor
> about 1310 about a year ago but so far it hasn't happened.
>
> It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local
> AM that may attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?
>
 
WSM makes it playing classic country. I can hear them 9 months year in the early morning. They sound great and make money. But they are in Nasville and are a heritage country station. That does not make it viable above the Mason-Dixon line.

WDIA in Memphis makes it playing R&B oldies. They are a heritage R&B station where musician Rufus Thomas worked. They are in the home town of Stax records. Because of this history, it works there. That would not make it work here.

With only rare exceptions, music on AM is dead. We need to accept that and move on.

> I think one of the only music formats left on AM that can
> still make money is Country Classics. You don't need an FM
> signal, its cheap to run and would have a base loyal
> audiance. I would think the Beasleys could flip either 800
> or 860 and sell it as a combo with powerhouse WXTU. WMID is
> a great sounding station playing great oldies you don't hear
> every day, they are also cheap to run and have a loyal
> audiance. Look what we have here on 1340 compared to
> Atlantic City. Could one of the Salem outlets grab the WMID
> sound, probably, but Salem won't do it. I do think if a
> smaller AM signal would go either CC or WMID type oldies,
> they would do better than whats on the AM band now-adays. I
> also do not think the audiance that would listen to AM music
> is in the grave yet, when WJBR-A was Standards, they had a
> younger audiance and did pretty well.
>
 
Remember, the format died there also.

> if WPEN would have had a WFIL or WIBG sound to it maybe it
> would have worked.it needed a boss jock kinda sound.oldies
> 950 was bland.when WFIL came back in the 80's it sounded
> like famous 56 of the 60's and 70's.that's what the oldies
> should sound like on AM.the right jingles,rockin'jocks and a
> good mix of music.i loved FIL! that's what WPEN sould have
> done.
>
 
Re: WPEN was the LAST real oldies format

Music on AM may or may not be dead. With the occasional exception, it probably is. But it can still work if there's a good signal involved, the format fills a market opening and there is no direct competition on FM.

Having said that, it also requires effort - which is something Greater Media didn't apply in the case of Oldies on WPEN. There was no real promotion and no dedicated sales staff - and the presentation was lackluster. Plus the station is only now getting a viable nighttime signal for the 21st century. And when it didn't work, all the industry wonks nodded their heads sagely and said "See? Music on AM is dead." I don't know if Oldies on WPEN would have worked or not. But it was never given a real chance.

If AM ever completely converts to digital and we get past this insane transition period, perhaps music will come back to medium wave. But that won't be a panacea in and of itself. There are plenty of unsuccessful FM's out there as well. In the end, it's all about the programming.

Steve
KC2LDY
 
Re: WPEN and AM clutter

I have another observation on AM. I still love the band, listen to it, and believe it should be given a fighting chance. I strongly believe music is dead on AM, but I was listening to music the other day on 1650 and it sounded good. Even 640 is not that bad if you can stand the kiddie talk.

Another problem is the number of small stations cluttering the band and serving no useful purpose anymore. In the mid-60's, the FCC seemed to want every small town in America to have its own AM station. 250, 500 or 1,000 watts. Most signed-on at sunrise and signed-off at sunset.

At the time it worked. Small towns were proud to have their own station. But now people do not understand the concept of a station not being there 24/7. If you aren't there when they wake up and there when they drive home, what good are you? And major market FMs cover the small towns in areas such as Philly, Wilmington, etc. Do we need these small AM's throughout the suburbs?

Do we need WWDB and 1540, when they cannot be full time? Come December, you won't hear "Imus in the Morning" until 7:30. The morning commute starts at 5 or 6 for most workers in this area. Newark Delaware's 1260 is so unknown that when the News-Journal printed their annual Delaware Guide, the list of radio stations did not even include it! Do we need 1550 in Elkton when most listeners are tuning in WXCY and don't even know 1550 exists? Eliminate these allocations, allow the remaining stations to increase power and/or pattern and the people would be better served by fewer but more useful outlets that could be heard through the static.



> Music on AM may or may not be dead. With the occasional
> exception, it probably is. But it can still work if there's
> a good signal involved, the format fills a market opening
> and there is no direct competition on FM.
>
> Having said that, it also requires effort - which is
> something Greater Media didn't apply in the case of Oldies
> on WPEN. There was no real promotion and no dedicated sales
> staff - and the presentation was lackluster. Plus the
> station is only now getting a viable nighttime signal for
> the 21st century. And when it didn't work, all the industry
> wonks nodded their heads sagely and said "See? Music on AM
> is dead." I don't know if Oldies on WPEN would have worked
> or not. But it was never given a real chance.
>
> If AM ever completely converts to digital and we get past
> this insane transition period, perhaps music will come back
> to medium wave. But that won't be a panacea in and of
> itself. There are plenty of unsuccessful FM's out there as
> well. In the end, it's all about the programming.
>
> Steve
> KC2LDY
>
 
Re: WPEN was the LAST real oldies format

> Music on AM may or may not be dead. With the occasional
> exception, it probably is. But it can still work if there's
> a good signal involved, the format fills a market opening
> and there is no direct competition on FM.
>
> Having said that, it also requires effort - which is
> something Greater Media didn't apply in the case of Oldies
> on WPEN. There was no real promotion and no dedicated sales
> staff - and the presentation was lackluster. Plus the
> station is only now getting a viable nighttime signal for
> the 21st century. And when it didn't work, all the industry
> wonks nodded their heads sagely and said "See? Music on AM
> is dead." I don't know if Oldies on WPEN would have worked
> or not. But it was never given a real chance.
>
> If AM ever completely converts to digital and we get past
> this insane transition period, perhaps music will come back
> to medium wave. But that won't be a panacea in and of
> itself. There are plenty of unsuccessful FM's out there as
> well. In the end, it's all about the programming.
>

Your better off playing oldies on your amateur radio station. All of you guys quit dreaming. There are unsuccessful FM's out there because of over saturation.
How many different formats compared to all the Delaware Valley and the rest of the nation's allocated licenses been issued.. Especially the FCC's laxed rules over the past 15 years, and the music industries tight playlist releases you think everything and every signal has a home. It's like real estate....they'll get you in a house, anyway they can. It's like how many stations would you like to hear Mariah Carey on. Or how many times can "Happy Together" by the Turtles be played. Would it please you if you can hear it on both AM and FM.
With the computer and the phone industries getting into delivered music, who would care. It's alot easier with the latters. You can hear it anytime you want.
As far as power, big deal. Even if it's 50,000 watts, you have very little listeners at night. Only DXers like you would have a thrill thinking that the station is the next big thrill. And that's a small amount. I use to have a thrill DXing in the 70's. It was the only source along with SW that you could pick up a far signal. And you had the feel like you were there. But today the internet and XM goes alot farther. (All over the US & the world). and it's just a few of you squares going around speculating on something that's dying or getting older that you like to revive.
Out here on the west coast, I'll be having my surround sound tuned to 1260 every day waiting one night for WAMS to come in.


> Steve
> KC2LDY
>
 
Re: WPEN and AM clutter

> I have another observation on AM. I still love the band,
> listen to it, and believe it should be given a fighting
> chance. I strongly believe music is dead on AM, but I was
> listening to music the other day on 1650 and it sounded
> good. Even 640 is not that bad if you can stand the kiddie
> talk.
>
> Another problem is the number of small stations cluttering
> the band and serving no useful purpose anymore. In the
> mid-60's, the FCC seemed to want every small town in America
> to have its own AM station. 250, 500 or 1,000 watts. Most
> signed-on at sunrise and signed-off at sunset.
>
> At the time it worked. Small towns were proud to have their
> own station. But now people do not understand the concept
> of a station not being there 24/7. If you aren't there when
> they wake up and there when they drive home, what good are
> you? And major market FMs cover the small towns in areas
> such as Philly, Wilmington, etc. Do we need these small
> AM's throughout the suburbs?
>
> Do we need WWDB and 1540, when they cannot be full time?
> Come December, you won't hear "Imus in the Morning" until
> 7:30. The morning commute starts at 5 or 6 for most workers
> in this area. Newark Delaware's 1260 is so unknown that
> when the News-Journal printed their annual Delaware Guide,
> the list of radio stations did not even include it! Do we
> need 1550 in Elkton when most listeners are tuning in WXCY
> and don't even know 1550 exists? Eliminate these
> allocations, allow the remaining stations to increase power
> and/or pattern and the people would be better served by
> fewer but more useful outlets that could be heard through
> the static.
>
> Your absolutely right. Today we can here about every crime around the nation, political move, or Brittany Spears (I won't go there). We can go above radio to know what's going on in the world, especially if you have access to the internet, CNN, etc. You don't even need the newspapers.
Back in the 60's 70's and before, we lived in a time where we didn't know what was going on in the nation so quickly. Cable and other technologies have filled our niches completely where I really don't need an AM radio except for a few exceptions.
>
> > Music on AM may or may not be dead. With the occasional
> > exception, it probably is. But it can still work if
> there's
> > a good signal involved, the format fills a market opening
> > and there is no direct competition on FM.
> >
> > Having said that, it also requires effort - which is
> > something Greater Media didn't apply in the case of Oldies
>
> > on WPEN. There was no real promotion and no dedicated
> sales
> > staff - and the presentation was lackluster. Plus the
> > station is only now getting a viable nighttime signal for
> > the 21st century. And when it didn't work, all the
> industry
> > wonks nodded their heads sagely and said "See? Music on
> AM
> > is dead." I don't know if Oldies on WPEN would have
> worked
> > or not. But it was never given a real chance.
> >
> > If AM ever completely converts to digital and we get past
> > this insane transition period, perhaps music will come
> back
> > to medium wave. But that won't be a panacea in and of
> > itself. There are plenty of unsuccessful FM's out there
> as
> > well. In the end, it's all about the programming.
> >
> > Steve
> > KC2LDY
> >
>
 
> It won't happen on FM...but any thoughts of a possible local
> AM that may attempt it especailly after the demise of WPEN?
>

For some reason, oldies stations are having trouble convincing national ad buyers that over-54ers have flexible buying habits. They beleve that their ad dollar would be better spent on a younger demo.

Eh - it doesnt matter to me much. Im not into the format(s) that the ad buyers think I should be. Besides, I have satellite now & only listen to local radio on Sat & Sunday nights (or when I feel like DX'ing WWKB).

I do wish 50's on 5 would quit playing the damn standards though....<P ID="signature">______________

AOL IM: wnjoldies or jamminoldies105
CBS-FM lives at http://67.83.125.155:8010
Oldies Board co-moderator</P>
 
Re: WPEN and AM clutter

> > Your absolutely right. Today we can here about every crime
> around the nation, political move, or Brittany Spears (I
> won't go there). We can go above radio to know what's going
> on in the world, especially if you have access to the
> internet, CNN, etc. You don't even need the newspapers.
> Back in the 60's 70's and before, we lived in a time where
> we didn't know what was going on in the nation so quickly.
> Cable and other technologies have filled our niches
> completely where I really don't need an AM radio except for
> a few exceptions.<<

This may be true when it comes to national and international news, although most of what you see on TV and read on the Internet is repackaged material from fewer and fewer independent sources. But when it comes to local news, there are even fewer options. Even the newspapers are cutting back on local coverage and the Internet, when it comes to local content, simply repackages what the newspapers print. You may (or may not) say that most people, aside from traffic and weather, no longer care about local news. And in most cases you'd be right - and our democracy is weaker for it. Don't get me wrong: As a former owner of a radio station, I understand that news departments are no longer financially feasible for small AM's. But the lack of local content on AM helped to hurry along the demise of the band.

Steve
KC2LDY
 
Re: WPEN and AM clutter

>>Do we need these small AM's throughout the suburbs?<<

In the current economic and media environment, probably not.

>> Come December, you won't hear "Imus in the Morning" until
7:30.<<

I wonder how long it'll be before WPEN picks up Imus? Or am I the only one who thinks that could happen?

>>Eliminate these allocations, allow the remaining stations to increase power and/or pattern and the people would be better served by fewer but more useful outlets that could be heard through the static.<<

Sounds like a plan, but I'll bet it would be tied up in the courts for decades. Meanwhile, will digital transmissions solve the static problem? Perhaps it doesn't matter. Maybe even with 24-hour-a-day digital signals, now that most downtown businesses in small towns are gone in favor of big-box stores out on the highway, perhaps there still isn't enough economic base for a small station to survive. Maybe non-profit community broadcasters should take over these frequencies.

Steve
KC2LDY
 
Re: WPEN was the LAST real oldies format

> Your better off playing oldies on your amateur radio
> station. All of you guys quit dreaming. There are
> unsuccessful FM's out there because of over saturation.
> How many different formats compared to all the Delaware
> Valley and the rest of the nation's allocated licenses been
> issued.. Especially the FCC's laxed rules over the past 15
> years, and the music industries tight playlist releases you
> think everything and every signal has a home. It's like real
> estate....they'll get you in a house, anyway they can. It's
> like how many stations would you like to hear Mariah Carey
> on. Or how many times can "Happy Together" by the Turtles be
> played. Would it please you if you can hear it on both AM
> and FM.<

Sounds a lot like you're proving my point. It's all about the programming. Most of us who would like to hear music on medium wave realize that AMers can't compete on an even basis with a similar format on FM. And we realize there are plenty of AM stations that are simply too technically challenged to ever compete in today's world (see my response to another post below).

But we do think that, given the right signal, programming, promotion and sales support, niche formats that are ignored by the biggies can run in the black while pleasing a lot of disenfranchised listeners. Hell, there are even non-niche formats being ignored by the biggies because the idiots at the ad agencies can't see beyond thier noses.

If you've been reading these boards for long, you'll realize most people who were cheering for Oldies on WPEN were not waiting to hear "Happy Together." Leave that for WOGL. They wanted real Philadelphia Oldies form the 50's and early 60's. But it required work, something Greater Media wasn't prepared to give (which makes me wonder how successful Sports Talk will be on 950). If the Geator can make money with Philly Oldies, so could the station talking his money.

I was an early adaptor of computers and the Internet and of XM satellite radio. But I'll still be happy to listen to a well-programmed AM if it offers something I want to hear.

Steve
KC2LDY
 
Re: WPEN and AM clutter

I returned to radio sales in 1990, after being away from it for several years. The change was unbelieveable. I had not fully understood how major the change was from small loclly owned stores to the mega chains. It is the locally owned stores with owners having life long ties to the community that supported local AM stations. Once they started to disappear, the "Fashion Bugs" and "Ace Hardwares" of this world took over. Marketing in handled by young managers in New York City, not Newark Delaware. They often have never listened to an AM radio station. And they will not advertise on a local station just becuase it is part of the community.

And I do hope WPEN picks up Imus. The 660 station in Cuba is so strong now that winter is approaching, I can't hear QFAN at all at 6am.

> >>Do we need these small AM's throughout the suburbs?> Come
> December, you won't hear "Imus in the Morning" until
> 7:30.>Eliminate these allocations, allow the remaining
> stations to increase power and/or pattern and the people
> would be better served by fewer but more useful outlets that
> could be heard through the static.
>
 
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