WPEN-FM HD2

[rtetro]

I was dial twisting on the HD receiver in my office this morning, and found that WPEN-FM's HD2 channel is running classical music. The last time I listened a few weeks ago, I believe they were running a jockless vestige of the old NOW format. It's a very interesting switch when most HD2 channels in Philly are doing more mainstream (define that as you like) pop and rock formats with their HD2 channels.

I like the format, even though there are no announcers. The program readout identifying the piece of music helps overcome the lack of voices. I'm just a bit surprised that they took their HD2 channel in a totally different direction.

 

[aindik]

People are using "more" mainstream formats, but putting a format on HD-2 that's a carbon copy of a format that's still on someone else's main signal doesn't really make any sense at all.

CBS is starting to experiment with out-of-market sports talk stations on HD-2s and HD-3s of in-market FM sports stations. I think they are going to put WFAN and WIP on HD in DC.

 

[Bill_W]

I was dial twisting on the HD receiver in my office this morning, and found that WPEN-FM's HD2 channel is running classical music. The last time I listened a few weeks ago, I believe they were running a jockless vestige of the old NOW format. It's a very interesting switch when most HD2 channels in Philly are doing more mainstream (define that as you like) pop and rock formats with their HD2 channels.

I like the format, even though there are no announcers. The program readout identifying the piece of music helps overcome the lack of voices. I'm just a bit surprised that they took their HD2 channel in a totally different direction.

I think they put the NOW 97.5 Christmas music on, the format that they had between jazz and the official launch of NOW a year ago. 97.5 HD-2 was classical before they put the Christmas music on. I think it's the guilt that GM must still feel about taking WFLN away from Philly.

 

[rtetro]

I think it's the guilt that GM must still feel about taking WFLN away from Philly.

That thought crossed my mind, but I dismissed it. It seems a bit - well - puerile for a major broadcast company to institute a format based on guilt (even an HD2 format). Still, there are a lot of people in the area who still have not forgiven them for silencing WFLN.

 

[Bill_W]

People are using "more" mainstream formats, but putting a format on HD-2 that's a carbon copy of a format that's still on someone else's main signal doesn't really make any sense at all.

CBS is starting to experiment with out-of-market sports talk stations on HD-2s and HD-3s of in-market FM sports stations. I think they are going to put WFAN and WIP on HD in DC.

Will CBS be required to "black out" Philly pro sports play by play on say WIP's broadcast say in DC? I'd like to have WBZ-FM here in Philly on a CBS HD-2 or HD-3 as I am originally from Boston, or I can listen online minus the Pats and Bruins.

 

[qtpieislit]

I think it's the guilt that GM must still feel about taking WFLN away from Philly.

Radio conscience? If you believe that one, I've got some newly discovered swamp land on City Line Av. for sale real cheap. Comes with parking lot. Great for building skyscrapers or TV towers. Tax abatements. Cash only.

 

[MarcB]

Will CBS be required to "black out" Philly pro sports play by play on say WIP's broadcast say in DC? I'd like to have WBZ-FM here in Philly on a CBS HD-2 or HD-3 as I am originally from Boston, or I can listen online minus the Pats and Bruins.

I believe they're using internet feeds of the stations so play-by-play is blacked out.

 

[8638]

I think it's the guilt that GM must still feel about taking WFLN away from Philly.

Still, there are a lot of people in the area who still have not forgiven them for silencing WFLN.

Count me as one of those. There was something about listening to a commercial classical station. It says something about a city's cultural vibrancy. The economic viability of such has been discussed ad nauseum, yet I have seen posted that 95.7 has yet to bill what it did as WFLN.

 

[rtetro]

There was something about listening to a commercial classical station. It says something about a city's cultural vibrancy.

Very true. I've been listening extensively to WQXR in NYC and WCRB in Boston since their respectful moves to the world of non-com radio. Both stations have changed signifcantly since the switchovers. WCRB makes no contention about the station now being WBGH's baby. For instance, on their web site there is narry a mention of WCRB. It's all WGBH this, and WGBH that. (I'm talking about WCRB's webite here, not WGBH.) The station has largely lost two important things: it's identity and the long-proven music programming that had made it a viable commodity - and something worth listening to. Now WGBH has only kept two of the pre-merger announcers, who have obviously been forced into the WGBH mold. And their music has often goes way over into the terribly esoteric - music that is not as well know by classical music fans. They have, for the most part, retained their 'persona.'

Moving on to the WQXR changes; the one positive thing one can say about WQXR's migration from commercial to non-com is that the new owners, WNYC, kept much of the WQXR music in place, along with most of the announcers. Apart from the change in frequency from 96.3 to 105.9 and the lower power, the station -- by that I mean the "station sound" -- remains largely remains intact. There are, of course, differences here and there, but it remains listenable and sounds fairly commercial.

New York and Boston are the two most cultured centers in the northeast, with Philadelphia being third. In those two markets they found a way to keep 24/7 classical radio on-the-air, albeit non-commercially. Should classical music radio rate a full-time 24/7 radio station here - either non-com or commercial? Or is 12 hours a day on WRTI enough? I believe it does deserve a fulltime presence...even if it is on an HD2 channel. But, of course, you know that once Greater Media finds something more viable that will bring in additional cash, they'll dump the format like a hot potato. That's not a jab at GM...if it were me, I'd probably do the same.

 

[fybush]

New York and Boston are the two most cultured centers in the northeast, with Philadelphia being third. In those two markets they found a way to keep 24/7 classical radio on-the-air, albeit non-commercially. Should classical music radio rate a full-time 24/7 radio station here - either non-com or commercial? Or is 12 hours a day on WRTI enough? I believe it does deserve a fulltime presence...even if it is on an HD2 channel.

In fairness, Rene, it should be noted that WRTI does maintain a 24/7 classical presence - when the main channel of 90.1 goes to jazz at 6 PM, 90.1-HD2 goes classical through the night. (And vice versa for jazz fans, who get WRTI jazz on 90.1-HD2 from 6 AM until 6 PM.) Those listening to WRTI's webstreams don't even know the programming they're hearing is going from analog/HD1 to HD2; there's simply a 24-hour "WRTI Classical" stream and a 24-hour "WRTI Jazz" stream.

Is it as good as the days when WRTI was doing jazz 24/7 on 90.1 and WFLN was doing classical 24/7 on 95.7? No, of course not - but it's something, at least.

 

[nd2023]

People are using "more" mainstream formats, but putting a format on HD-2 that's a carbon copy of a format that's still on someone else's main signal doesn't really make any sense at all.

CBS is starting to experiment with out-of-market sports talk stations on HD-2s and HD-3s of in-market FM sports stations. I think they are going to put WFAN and WIP on HD in DC.

Will CBS be required to "black out" Philly pro sports play by play on say WIP's broadcast say in DC? I'd like to have WBZ-FM here in Philly on a CBS HD-2 or HD-3 as I am originally from Boston, or I can listen online minus the Pats and Bruins.

WFAN was carrying a Jets or Giants NFL broadcast on Tampa's 94.1 WLLD-HD3

 

[aindik]

WFAN was carrying a Jets or Giants NFL broadcast on Tampa's 94.1 WLLD-HD3

What time of day was it?

WFAN doesn't carry the local Jets PBP. They carry the Giants, and they carry the Sunday Night game from Westwood One (which, this week, featured the Jets).

I would think WW1 would prohibit them from redistributing their feed in any place other than on the air @ 660 (and maybe also on 92.3 HD-3 in New York).

 

[rtetro]

In fairness, Rene, it should be noted that WRTI does maintain a 24/7 classical presence - when the main channel of 90.1 goes to jazz at 6 PM, 90.1-HD2 goes classical through the night. (And vice versa for jazz fans, who get WRTI jazz on 90.1-HD2 from 6 AM until 6 PM.) Those listening to WRTI's webstreams don't even know the programming they're hearing is going from analog/HD1 to HD2; there's simply a 24-hour "WRTI Classical" stream and a 24-hour "WRTI Jazz" stream.

Of course, WRTI's 24/7 classical presence (which is appreciated) is contingent upon having an HD Radio - which most people still do not have, or being near a computer or wifi radio, which is for the most part unavailable in a car. It is a rather schizophrenic exprience, however, having to change back and forth to get the same programming. It reminds me of listening to HF Radio. "BBC World Service is now closing down its service to Central and South American on 15260. Retune to 5975 to continue listening."

Still, it is better than nthing.

 

[aindik]

If I put this URL into my blackberry's browser, the WRTI classical stream launches in the media player:
http://wrti-ice.streamguys.net:80/classical-247-mp3

I can listen to it anywhere and connect it to my car. This would likely work on an iPhone, too.

 

[DanStrassberg]

It reminds me of listening to HF Radio. "BBC World Service is now closing down its service to Central and South American on 15260. Retune to 5975 to continue listening."
Still, it is better than nthing.

Maybe 20 years ago, Canada had two dual-frequency AMs (or maybe that should read two dual-frequency PAIRS of AMs, because each station had two sets of call letters--one for days; the other for nights). In both of those cases, the day and night operations were not on first-adjacent channels CHIR/CHYR (Leamington ON, near Detroit) were on 710 days and 730 nights. In Gravelbourg SK, CFGR/CFRG were on 710 days and 1290 nights. The US's sole dual-frequency AM, WNZK Dearborn Heights MI (Detroit market), is on 690 days and 680 nights. I've heard (but have not been able to confirm) rumors that WNZK uses the Kahn PowerSide to shift modulation to the lower sideband of 690 by day and the upper sideband of 680 by night. This supposedly makes it unnecessary for listeners to retune their radios when the station switches between its day and night operations. But no technology could take care of that problem for the Canadian stations. I've heard audio of the Leamington handoff; they made quite a production out of it. Anybody know where there might be audio of the handoffs at WNZK or the SK stations? The SK pair broadcast in French--and by now must certainly have moved to FM--the population of Gravelboutg is substantially Francophone.

 

[wcradio2]

Dan, I've noticed AMs in the UK having dual frequencies as well. But the frequencies aren't next to each other as per your example of 680 and 690 in Dearborn. What is the advantage of doing this? (the dual frequencies I mean) Is it just day/night broadcasting regulations? If so, why not just go with the one better signal or around the clock signal? Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I'm new to this. Thanks

 

[DanStrassberg]

Dan, I've noticed AMs in the UK having dual frequencies as well. But the frequencies aren't next to each other as per your example of 680 and 690 in Dearborn. What is the advantage of doing this? (the dual frequencies I mean) Is it just day/night broadcasting regulations? If so, why not just go with the one better signal or around the clock signal? Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I'm new to this. Thanks

In the US and Canada (when it was done in Canada), it was a legal thing. Apparently, the FCC didn't like it and after WNZK went on the air, the FCC ruled that WNZK would not be considered to be a precedent nor would the FCC accept any applications for new dual-frequency stations or improvements in the facilities of existing dual-frequency stations. Without that ruling, the US probably would now have a hundred or more dual-frequency AMs. Because WNZK was the only dual-frequency AM that had been built in the US at the time of the FCC ruling, the ruling about changes to such stations applies only to WNZK. Just recently, WNZK applied to increase its daytime power on 690 from 2.5 kW to 10 kW. The FCC returned the application in only a day or so. Fastest I have ever seen them act!

Anyhow, The reasons for most of these dual-frequency setups were international regulations and protection of existing stations. CHIR/CHYR was on 710 days only because 710 was a US Class IB channel on which Canada was then prohibited from building full-time stations. 730 was a Mexican IA channel, which Canada was allowed to use at night. But there must have been daytime issues on 730. My guess is that CBL was the problem. Similarly, CFRG/CFGR was on 710 daytime only for the same reason (710 unavailable at night). Before it was granted the daytime move to 710, the SK station had been on 1290 full-time. Back then, Canadian Class IIIs were limited to 10 kW and the daytime move to 710 greatly increased the station's daytime coverage. As for WNZK, it could not operate on 690 at night because of the need to protect what was then CBF. Even today, it could get only a few watts at night on 690 because of required protections of the Canadian border. So why not operate day and night on 680? There might be problems with WSCR, and there might also be problems with co-channel WDBC in northern MI.

 

[DanStrassberg]

I erred in my previous message about 710 being unavailable to Canada at night back in the day. In fact, there was a full-time station on 710 (CKVM, I believe) in northwest Quebec province. That station was grandfathered, however--REALLY grandfathered--WOR had to protect it, and when WOR moved its TX a couple of miles a few years back, it had to protect NW Quebec even more to comply with the ratchet rule. No sooner did WOR get its new site on the air than the Quebec station moved to FM. I'm not sure whether there are any other instances of a US Class IB station protecting a co-channel Canadian Class II, but I suspect that there are not. There are only a few examples of a US IB having to protect a US Class II. One I know of is also on 710--KIRO protects KSPN. And in the east, WLAC protects WWZN.

Anyhow, what I should have said was that 710 was unavailable to Canada at night EXCEPT for the grandfathered station.

 

[8638]

Rene, I agree fully with you regarding the new WQXR. Living in Central Jersey, the signal OTA is useless, except on my Sony HD tuner, which pulls 105.9 quite well. I've not listened to WCRB since its change. I've always commended WRTI for doing classical days. I think they do it quite well! I wish their HD signal made it to me for nighttime classical use. Still, having grown up with WFLN, I do miss it.

There was something about listening to a commercial classical station. It says something about a city's cultural vibrancy.

Very true. I've been listening extensively to WQXR in NYC and WCRB in Boston since their respectful moves to the world of non-com radio. Both stations have changed signifcantly since the switchovers. WCRB makes no contention about the station now being WBGH's baby. For instance, on their web site there is narry a mention of WCRB. It's all WGBH this, and WGBH that. (I'm talking about WCRB's webite here, not WGBH.) The station has largely lost two important things: it's identity and the long-proven music programming that had made it a viable commodity - and something worth listening to. Now WGBH has only kept two of the pre-merger announcers, who have obviously been forced into the WGBH mold. And their music has often goes way over into the terribly esoteric - music that is not as well know by classical music fans. They have, for the most part, retained their 'persona.'

Moving on to the WQXR changes; the one positive thing one can say about WQXR's migration from commercial to non-com is that the new owners, WNYC, kept much of the WQXR music in place, along with most of the announcers. Apart from the change in frequency from 96.3 to 105.9 and the lower power, the station -- by that I mean the "station sound" -- remains largely remains intact. There are, of course, differences here and there, but it remains listenable and sounds fairly commercial.

New York and Boston are the two most cultured centers in the northeast, with Philadelphia being third. In those two markets they found a way to keep 24/7 classical radio on-the-air, albeit non-commercially. Should classical music radio rate a full-time 24/7 radio station here - either non-com or commercial? Or is 12 hours a day on WRTI enough? I believe it does deserve a fulltime presence...even if it is on an HD2 channel. But, of course, you know that once Greater Media finds something more viable that will bring in additional cash, they'll dump the format like a hot potato. That's not a jab at GM...if it were me, I'd probably do the same.