WQXR AUDIO CHAIN

[PHRaCaS]

Let us not forget that "Hunt & Pump" composite limiter in the Digit......worthless.

I guess to be fair I should say that I personally like the Digit when using the analog input module.
I still have several in front line operation in this configuration and they sound good.

 

[Studio1]

Interesting reading this thread.

I've not worked with ANY of the equipment mentioned, not even worked with digital gear.

It seems fairly evident however from the comments made here that digital is not the solution (in this application anyway).

How many times have I heard this before? How many times have I seen stations investing heavily in digital equipment, only to chuck it all after a few years and return to analog? (Believe me, it happens here - and therefore I would say it happens elsewhere too).

Personally I don't see the need or reason to go out and spend thousands on digital gear when analog works perfectly Ok.

Why fix something that ain't broke?

 

[cgould]

The problem isn't 'digital'. It's all designer implementation of digital tools.

I was reading this thread and laughing my &%^$ off as I thought this debate died years ago.

Mr. Fry: No one is denying that if you fed an old outdated 8200 processor running at 32 kHz into the digit, the modulation will be nice and tight. Problem is that 8200 is a
glorified boat anchor now, so it's just a waste of time talking about it.

What Harris has basically said for the Digit is that in order to use it, don't expect the AES version to be 'backwards compatible' with the way broadcast processing has been traditionally been done. Heh. Typical Harris response, and typical of the way they deal with things. And I thought they were possibly coming around to where we all are now.

If your customers want to use a system a certain way, and that way is *PERFECTLY LEGAL* why call them dumb asses because they aren't doing it the way YOU want it done? For you, 90% of the customers are 100% WRONG, I guess. Typical.

There is more than one way to skin a cat in broadcast, and I guess the other transmitter folks figured that out!

32kHz sample band limiting on heavily processed audio makes the high end sound like the front of a jet engine at high velocity. Not pretty. At higher sample rates, it sounds much more pleasant, as many have attested to here. I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears that. So many people hear this, and you don't. Guess what?

Looks like your hearing is shot! ;-)

I learn so much from you when you talk RF! You are the RF Guru, and I bow to you there - you will forget more on RF than any of us will ever remember, or will ever know know on that topic, but when it comes to this 'Digit' topic, it gets really irritating really fast as it reeks with all that we've come to hate about Harris!

-C

 

[PHRaCaS]

Straying slightly. Have the Digit problems been addressed/fixed in the Flexstar?
Anyone using the Flexstar?

 

[Play Freebird]

The problem isn't 'digital'. It's all designer implementation of digital tools.

We could start a whole new thread on the topic of digital products that were supposed to be a big improvement over analog, but completely flopped.

I nominate:

1) Fidelipac's digital "cart" machine that used 3-1/2" floppies

2) Come to think of it, ITC's attempt at a digital cart machine (the thing that used "streaming" tape backup cartridges) wasn't any better.

3) QEI's "Quick Link" RPU -- wasn't that supposed to make Marti units obsolete?

4) Gentner's digital "LAZER" and "PRIZM" processors

5) BE's "Predator" FM exciter

 

[syvjeff]

Play Freebird has a great point. Sadly I've attended my fair share of NABs with vaporware and neon signs of digital is better and if you are not "you suck".

However digital is better if it's designed and implemented for the real world. I'm personally tired of our industry either utilizing cheap consumer grade parts to make an industrial strength equipment or overly industrial equipment that doesn't make any sense.

 

[LA_Guy]

Most engineers that i have known thru many years will agree that continental and BE make the best exciters and TONS of them are still in service.Califzeke, i had that same problem at various installations.Harris does not have the balls to admit they were wrong.that irks me more than anything.had a mw1 that had variac transformer problems the FIRST week it was installed.All i got was good lip service and alot of doubletalk.

The best sounding/performing exciter out there by far is the Nautel. Not only is it a good digital design, but they used premium opamps in the analog audio section (OP-275), and a high quality film capacitor as a DC blocker for the composite. It's the ONLY exciter that does not require modifications right out of the box....unless of course you believe that composite audio sent through TLO74's and 5532's sounds good!

 

[cgould]

A friend once said "You can tell the pioneers by counting the arrows in their backs" ... well, he didn;t invent that phrase, but he used it in regards to this very topic.

As I said earlier, there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with "Digital stuff", just wrong ways to implement it. Some of these wrong ways aren't very obvious at first --
especially if you are one of the first out of the gate with new tech, but as time goes on, issues are exposed, and good designers will re-design and adapt accordingly.

This thread in all its glory has certainly exposed that!

DSP Audio processing has been maturing in recent years, and I think you'll be seeing the true power of this platform emerge in the next few years from all the big players.

If you're watching, and listening closely to the designers of this new tech, you should be noticing the beginnings of some pretty cool concepts taking hold....

-C

 

[wgliradio]

Harris? Shortsighted design? No! Not Harris?

 

[wgliradio]

[We're speaking technically here, not sales. Proof is in the technical performance of the product, or lack of performance

So, Frank, if the DIGIT was / is unable to perform as excellently as it does with a digitally compatible modulation processor, to what do you attribute its commercial success?

RF

The same as I attribute to the 8200, the only processor that worked with it. People are obsessed with DIGITAL as a buzzword and are stupid and buy things blindly on that basis alone "back in the day" The early digital stuff was brutal, the 8200 was a "what color coathanger" for this abortion, the DIGIT the portal to introduce horrible audio to the masses.

And the usual Harris "15 minutes later it is no longer supported". I tell you, anyone who even looks at Harris should have their head examined. There are better studio/router offerings from SAS, Axia, Logitek and Wheatstone. There are better transmitters from Nautel and BE, companies with better tech support. There are a million better options for television other than Harris. Bigger is not better. Bigger means a Hindenberg style collapse. How this company is still in business is beyond me. They hit and run, are sloppy, poor tech support, poor follow up, discontinue parts for early runs of current models. STAY AWAY.

 

[chrish]

To Frank Foti, Since there are thousands of these Digit exciters now in use and
are sure to be in primary and secondary use as most plants are upgraded to digital
It would be amusing to see Telos Omnia come out with a Digital input module that
makes the Digit work correctly with AES.
Seems like there might be a pretty good market for them starting with the four I would buy.

 

[Studio1]

I'm personally tired of our industry utilizing cheap consumer grade parts to make industrial strength equipment. (abridged)

Yes, the Denon DN-961 and associated CD players were a good example of this kind of thinking.

Essentially a domestic transport mechanism shoved into an odd size box, and some big "studio style" buttons added to the front.

They still died in a short space of time just like a domestic CD player would.

[Sorry, I know the thread is not about this as such, but as soon as I read that part, this concept came to mind]

 

[littlejohn]

I got DNF-951s (Samesame except they used the cart cases for the cds) that are '01 models which run just fine. The 961s differ only in the drawer mechanism. If that isn't what's busting, you got some sort of a problem in your place which is breaking them.

 

[Sgeirk]

Way off subject, but I had a Denon CD changer in my trunk for about 8 years, it only had to be repaired once. It operated in temperatures from -15 below to probably 150 and only experienced an issue ONCE.

The Denon broadcast CD changers? Bearings every 6 months. They were/are a mess.

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

Essentially a domestic transport mechanism shoved into an odd size box, and some big "studio style" buttons added to the front.

Although professional broadcast equipment also has its shortcomings. Look at the famous Tascam 112 MK II cassette deck.

That's one solid, nice-sounding tape machine.....except for the fact that it eats idler wheels for breakfast. :

 

[wgliradio]

To Frank Foti, Since there are thousands of these Digit exciters now in use and
are sure to be in primary and secondary use as most plants are upgraded to digital
It would be amusing to see Telos Omnia come out with a Digital input module that
makes the Digit work correctly with AES.
Seems like there might be a pretty good market for them starting with the four I would buy.

As a manufacturer, I wouldn't cover up for misdesign of another company, especially when that design has been shown to be inferior. My advice to the end user would be that you would have to find an out of date processor to interface to the AES, or budget for a new exciter or use the analog side.

I feel bad that you are stuck with these exciters and the fact that Harris lied to the whole world when they were the latest but never greatest, but technology marches way beyond.