WRFF-Thoughts..

[i know]

wexler

i could spend hours explaining the concept of a "current" but i thik it would be lost on you...

as far as hey there delilah...like it or not CC is a research MACHINE...if their numbers indicated that the song was appealing to the 12-18 crowd they would not play it...

have you noticed how many hot ac stations the song is on??? that tell ya somethin about the demo sparky?

dont condescend to me man..the sooner you figure out your personal preference has nothing to do with programming, the better of you will be

 

[Wexler]

what is the proper number of spins for "Hey There Delilah" for the month?

When you calculate, please let their Program Director know, as well as the rest of us message board users.

How about twice a day. 50 spins over a 25 day period is plenty...you want more, have a friggen listener request hour.

They do not have a PD yet - which could be the problem.

See my upcoming response to my boy "i know" regarding compelling content.

 

[Wexler]

wexler

i could spend hours explaining the concept of a "current" but i thik it would be lost on you...

as far as hey there delilah...like it or not CC is a research MACHINE...if their numbers indicated that the song was appealing to the 12-18 crowd they would not play it...

have you noticed how many hot ac stations the song is on??? that tell ya somethin about the demo sparky?

dont condescend to me man..the sooner you figure out your personal preference has nothing to do with programming, the better of you will be

Who "condescended" first? Go re-read your response to me [EDIT] and you just did it again...you can't handle a civil discussion? Fine. I'll bet I touched a nerve cause you keep your cell phone on your belt loop, don't you?

Take everything you thought you "knew" about "currents" and throw it the [EDIT] out the window, ok [EDIT] Have you seen PPM data? Do you now understand that the general public tunes in and out of radio like it's using toilet paper? That NOTHING in a diary world applies to what is going on today in Philadelphia radio!

Why is it that the PPM revealed the shocking truth to programmers, like you, that over-played the over-tested "currents", make the LISTENER feel like you don't care about them. It's all about them, but no one asked them.

The methodology must have been wrong? How is that possible? Radio is just a "reach" medium? How is that possible? Don't talk about "frequency" any more? But the 30 people we have locked in a room really liked hearing "Hey There Delilah", so we should play it 8 times a day!

What the PPM data is just confirming is the age old question you always faced; that when ever you had a conversation with a person and told them that you were associated with a radio station the first question that always came back to you was "why do they play the same songs all the time?" What's the answer? Cause that's what the "testing" showed?

That's what is killing the industry and driving people away to their ipods and satellite...it's about the content stupid (in most cases and certainly with a "new" concept). Hearing the same song, at the same time each day does not work, and the PPM is shocking the "old way" of thinking.

So, relevant to our discussion about a "new" rock radio concept where they are claiming of "do things differently", and trying to beat a 39 year old legend where people turn that station on like pavlov's dog, there is nothing different about me driving in my car today at 3:45, turning on WRFF and hearing "Hey There Delilah"...so you know what I did? Exactly, I turned my Sirius back on and listened to the replay of Stern from this morning.

5 formats in 7 years on that frequency...yep, testing of currents certainly did the trick.


[EDIT-offensive content]

 

[carnyfeet]

Who "condescended" first? Go re-read your response to me [EDIT] and you just did it again...you can't handle a civil discussion? Fine. I'll bet I touched a nerve cause you keep your cell phone on your belt loop, don't you?

Take everything you thought you "knew" about "currents" and throw it the [EDIT] out the window, ok [EDIT] Have you seen PPM data? Do you now understand that the general public tunes in and out of radio like it's using toilet paper? That NOTHING in a diary world applies to what is going on today in Philadelphia radio!

Why is it that the PPM revealed the shocking truth to programmers, like you, that over-played the over-tested "currents", make the LISTENER feel like you don't care about them. It's all about them, but no one asked them.

The methodology must have been wrong? How is that possible? Radio is just a "reach" medium? How is that possible? Don't talk about "frequency" any more? But the 30 people we have locked in a room really liked hearing "Hey There Delilah", so we should play it 8 times a day!

What the PPM data is just confirming is old question you always faced; that when ever you had a conversation with a person and told them that you were associated with a radio station the first question that always came back to you was "why do they play the same songs all the time?" What's the answer? Cause that's what the "testing" showed?

That's what is killing the industry and driving people away to their ipods and satellite...it's about the content stupid (in most cases and certainly with a "new" concept). Hearing the same song, at the same time each day does not work, and the PPM is shocking the "old way" of thinking.

So, relevant to our discussion about a "new" rock radio concept where they are claiming of "do things differently", and trying to beat a 39 year old legend where people turn that station on like pavlov's dog, there is nothing different about me driving in my car today at 3:45, turning on WRFF and hearing "Hey There Delilah"...so you know what I did? Exactly, I turned my Sirius back on and listened to the replay of Stern from this morning.

5 formats in 7 years on that frequency...yep, testing of currents certainly did the trick.
[EDIT-offensive content]

I am now quoting this post because it's author speaks the TRUTH

 

[Beejus]

what is the proper number of spins for "Hey There Delilah" for the month?

When you calculate, please let their Program Director know, as well as the rest of us message board users.

How about twice a day. 50 spins over a 25 day period is plenty...you want more, have a friggen listener request hour.

I doubt 14 spins per week would help set familiarity of the song. 4-5 spins a day (28-35 per week) would make it so the listener would know it.

 

[automationasphyxiation]

5 formats in 7 years on that frequency...yep, testing of currents certainly did the trick.


[EDIT-offensive content]

How does 104.5's history of executing other formats relate to a discussion of 104.5's current strategy?

 

[Wexler]

Most of it was while being owned by the "testing machine".

Test this.

 

[content]

Wexler-
You have some interesting theories. I have some questions based on your comments:

Who "condescended" first? Go re-read your response to me [EDIT] and you just did it again...you can't handle a civil discussion? Fine. I'll bet I touched a nerve cause you keep your cell phone on your belt loop, don't you?

Take everything you thought you "knew" about "currents" and throw it the [EDIT] out the window, ok [EDIT] Have you seen PPM data? Do you now understand that the general public tunes in and out of radio like it's using toilet paper? That NOTHING in a diary world applies to what is going on today in Philadelphia radio! Tune-out/Tune-in patterns identified in PPM may actually legitimize the concept of speeding up rotations. Listeners often like to hear their favorite songs when they come to a radio station, though it doesn't mean they ONLY want to hear their favorites.

Why is it that the PPM revealed the shocking truth to programmers, like you, that over-played the over-tested "currents", make the LISTENER feel like you don't care about them. It's all about them, but no one asked them. Interesting observation, but not sure I understand how this is the case

The methodology must have been wrong? How is that possible? Radio is just a "reach" medium? How is that possible? Don't talk about "frequency" any more? But the 30 people we have locked in a room really liked hearing "Hey There Delilah", so we should play it 8 times a day!

What the PPM data is just confirming is the age old question you always faced; that when ever you had a conversation with a person and told them that you were associated with a radio station the first question that always came back to you was "why do they play the same songs all the time?" What's the answer? Cause that's what the "testing" showed? No. First question is "may I have a T-shirt?"

That's what is killing the industry and driving people away to their ipods and satellite...it's about the content stupid (in most cases and certainly with a "new" concept). Hearing the same song, at the same time each day does not work, and the PPM is shocking the "old way" of thinking. PPM is changing things, and radio has to be mindful of its content. But, I'm not convinced that rotational patterns are the reason radio may have been failing. (I loaded a playlist into my iPod for running purposes, and wouldn't you know I still listen to the same damn playlist every time I run, 'cuz it contains my favorite songs - and I'm too lazy to change it around)

So, relevant to our discussion about a "new" rock radio concept where they are claiming of "do things differently", and trying to beat a 39 year old legend where people turn that station on like pavlov's dog, there is nothing different about me driving in my car today at 3:45, turning on WRFF and hearing "Hey There Delilah"...so you know what I did? Exactly, I turned my Sirius back on and listened to the replay of Stern from this morning. By the fact that you have such a strong knowledge and interest in radio, its quite likely that your listening is atypical to an 'average' listener. Service like Sirius don't have a significant audience base, because not enough people are passionate enough to pay for it.

5 formats in 7 years on that frequency...yep, testing of currents certainly did the trick.


[EDIT-offensive content]

Thanks for sharing your ideas. Your insights are very interesting.

 

[Wexler]

I will do my best to answer...please keep in mind that my answers are in context of WRFF.

Wexler-
You have some interesting theories. I have some questions based on your comments:

Tune-out/Tune-in patterns identified in PPM may actually legitimize the concept of speeding up rotations. Listeners often like to hear their favorite songs when they come to a radio station, though it doesn't mean they ONLY want to hear their favorites.

Radio no longer should want to reward those people. Think about that for a second. Everyone has CUME in the PPM world. Radio is everywhere. Now if you have outrageous cume then who cares about TSL...but when the market is as tight as it is in Philly, content becomes king. The subtle difference in 15 minutes is HUGE now.

What programmers must now do is constantly reward the listener with a compelling mix...that they become "artists" rather than guys just sitting behind a pc trying to slam in the log before lunch with a record rep. PD's must become the station. Simple as that. Their choice, their flavor, their style becomes the station.

I am quite confident that when the PD's actually drill down into the data - cause they have only had it for a few months - and they can look at monitor #X and see at what point relative to the play list the monitor tuned out to another station, and then look at what song the other station was playing...well, after the PD's head falls off they will realize that the guy holding monitor #X didn't like something. That something is one of 3 things on WRFF: song selection, song repeat or commercial.

Interesting observation, but not sure I understand how this is the case

The TSL time went down across the board dramatically. Obviously this is a reflection in methodology, but it also reflects in the fact that very few people turn on and stay in. I believe they turn away due to either content interruptions - commercial breaks, or content disappointment (me with Hey there delilah).

No. First question is "may I have a T-shirt?"
Ok, but I am sure you have been asked why your station plays the same song over and over again. It's terrible, but stations do it because that's what the old world testing said to do. Are you going to tell me that there aren't more than 525 viable songs for WRFF to play?


But, I'm not convinced that rotational patterns are the reason radio may have been failing. (I loaded a playlist into my iPod for running purposes, and wouldn't you know I still listen to the same damn playlist every time I run, 'cuz it contains my favorite songs - and I'm too lazy to change it around)

Yes, but are you running for 1.5 hours a day? That's the point. In order to get people to listen longer they need variety within the chosen genre.

My premise with RFF is that if you are going to go with "all music" or a light spot load, then you MUST add more songs. This is not as much about the selection of songs, but about the limited play list relative to the total amount of songs in rotation. They are going to be penalized by the listener because they are all music - there is a much greater likelihood of repeats because minutes are not being taken up by spots.


By the fact that you have such a strong knowledge and interest in radio, its quite likely that your listening is atypical to an 'average' listener. Service like Sirius don't have a significant audience base, because not enough people are passionate enough to pay for it.


This is a separate topic for conversation. I bough Sirius for Stern, and Stern only. I NEVER listen to the music channels...ever. But what I do do is listen to people when they tell me they can't listen to regular radio any more for one of two reasons: song selection or repetition.

 

[raydofan]

TO EVERYONE:

PLEASE STOP ANSWERING IN COLOR INSIDE THE QUOTE BOX. IT IS ANNOYING.

THANKS.

 

[content]

Hey Wexler-
Wexler, Thanks for all of your thoughts.

In many cases I agree with you. Specifically, with such a low spotload and no DJ's (excluding the voice tracked sounding people on their at the moment - hopefully not the permanent air staff), repetition could be an issue. At the same time, a song like Delilah seems to established itself as a hit, and from my experience listeners do want to hear their favorite hit of the moment. It amazes me how often radio can play hits before the audience becomes familiar with them...and before they get tired of them. (And, I'm not speaking exclusively of call-out - I'm also speaking from cross-reference with Market sales and even requests).

From my ears, WRFF is off to a decent start. Will be interesting to watch it grow.

(and Raydofan, why don't you chill out for a second. I replied to Wexler's post in the quote box to make it easier to differentiate between his thoughts and mine)

 

[raydofan]

(and Raydofan, why don't you chill out for a second. I replied to Wexler's post in the quote box to make it easier to differentiate between his thoughts and mine)

Hey Content:

Content, that's what the inside and outside of the blue box is for.

You silly goose.

 

[RunWithScissors]

They had their worst day yesterday, they sounded fantastic until 6-27-07, why are they throwing Alternative Rap, which has been dead for years in the mix. They better cut it quick.

 

[automationasphyxiation]

Interesting. I listened for awhile yesterday and didn't catch any rap/rock.

What did you hear?

 

[i know]

nice analysis wexler..i disagree with it, but well thought out

i still don't think you are listening like your average listener...

 

[carnyfeet]

nice analysis wexler..i disagree with it, but well thought out

i still don't think you are listening like your average listener...

have you guys ever considered that the conventional idea of "average listener" is underestimating the actual "average listener"?

Most people I know with the means go seek out alternative methods of enterainment -- which I believe squashes the concept you guys like to wave around that people will throw the radio on and just listen to anything. Maybe that was the case before, when people's only choices were FM or AM, but it's not the case anymore. We need to stop treating the listeners like uninformed plebeians that are going to accept whatever we decide to throw on an automation computer and call "radio".

 

[i know]

i will repeat...please dont use.."my friends" or "most people i know" in an argument.. it means nothing

how many of your friends own a nickelback record?? how many have they sold??

 

[Wexler]

nice analysis wexler..i disagree with it, but well thought out

i still don't think you are listening like your average listener...

Much more civil. We can agree to disagree.

Some questions though:

Why do they make 10,000 song iPods?
Why have iPods sold so well, and continue to sell beyond a "fad" faze?
What demo is most likely to purchase an iPod or satellite?

Do you think there are more than 547 "viable" Modern Rock / Alt / Pop-rock songs to spin on WRFF? (That's what they have played since May 17th.)


Don't get me wrong, I think WRFF will do relatively well, but I am not sure if that will be due to the "artistry" of the computer selecting the songs or the void in the market place.

 

[Wexler]

More points to back up my argument regarding the amount (I have changed the operative word so we are all on the same page) of songs in rotation on WRFF:

B101, June 1 to June 28: 696 different songs - and that's with between 8 to 11 spots an hour! And guess what the number one spin was?

Snow Patrol Chasing Cars (94 times).

WMGK, June 1 to June 28: 686 different songs.

WMMR - WRFF's main competition - 922 different songs - and that's with 13 spots an hour!!!


So, let's review...

The number one, two and three stations in the market, that are playing full commercial loads have more songs in rotation than a station that is running 2 minutes in spots an hour? How does that make any sense I Know?

WRFF: 543 songs in rotation, 20% of the spins dedicated to 24 songs.

This has nothing to do with song selection - which is an entirely different argument...like, in the month of June they played the Bodeans "closer to free" 19 times and Pearl Jam's "Corduroy" 10? Yuch.

 

[drog123]

More points to back up my argument regarding the amount (I have changed the operative word so we are all on the same page) of songs in rotation on WRFF:

B101, June 1 to June 28: 696 different songs - and that's with between 8 to 11 spots an hour! And guess what the number one spin was?

Snow Patrol Chasing Cars (94 times).

WMGK, June 1 to June 28: 686 different songs.

WMMR - WRFF's main competition - 922 different songs - and that's with 13 spots an hour!!!


So, let's review...

The number one, two and three stations in the market, that are playing full commercial loads have more songs in rotation than a station that is running 2 minutes in spots an hour? How does that make any sense I Know?

WRFF: 543 songs in rotation, 20% of the spins dedicated to 24 songs.

This has nothing to do with song selection - which is an entirely different argument...like, in the month of June they played the Bodeans "closer to free" 19 times and Pearl Jam's "Corduroy" 10? Yuch.

Corduroy makes sense, that is played a lot on other rock stations....But 19 times for the Bodeans, wow....I don't know if that song was played 19 times a month when it came out