WTAM coverage problem

[gr8oldies]

Didnt the feds license a couple of Ks east of the Miss recently as well?

 

[SonoSational18]

Didnt the feds license a couple of Ks east of the Miss recently as well?

You mean like KYW, KDKA, and KQV?
Seriously, the FCC has recently relaxed what was a standing policy where the Mississippi was the general line of demarcation (in the early 20's it was the Rockies, so that's why there are some old W stations in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.). Since the Mississippi divides Minneapolis and St Paul, most Minneapolis stations begin with W... while most St. Paul stations begin with K.

As for the Fargo area station running full daytime power at night, they don't need WTAM's permission, they just have to inform them (along with the FCC).

 

[gr8oldies]

no within the last year not the eastern Ks that have been around forever

 

[radioman148]

no within the last year not the eastern Ks that have been around forever

I'm not aware of that. What stations would those be?

 

[w9wi]

Didnt the feds license a couple of Ks east of the Miss recently as well?

You mean like KYW, KDKA, and KQV?
Seriously, the FCC has recently relaxed what was a standing policy where the Mississippi was the general line of demarcation (in the early 20's it was the Rockies, so that's why there are some old W stations in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, etc.). Since the Mississippi divides Minneapolis and St Paul, most Minneapolis stations begin with W... while most St. Paul stations begin with K.

As for the Fargo area station running full daytime power at night, they don't need WTAM's permission, they just have to inform them (along with the FCC).

The FCC has not relaxed the K/W/Mississippi River callsign policy. At least not intentionally. They have made a few mistakes recently.

They did propose to eliminate the policy (allow K calls everywhere and W calls everywhere) but the industry shot it down.

The first recent mistake was KTGG(AM) near Jackson, Michigan. Rumor has it a clerk thought "MI" was "Missouri". There was also a TV station near Shreveport, Louisiana that was assigned WPXJ. (later changed to KPXJ; of course Louisiana lies across both sides of the Mississippi but this station was clearly west of the river) Other recent ones I know of:

• KBUD(FM) Sardis, Mississippi (roughly 80 miles east of the river)
• KOUI (FM) Louisville, Mississippi (roughly 150 miles east of the river, though I have a vague recollection it was initially licensed in Louisiana and moved across the river)
• WJTJ (FM) Cameron, Missouri (northwest Missouri, not too far from Kansas City)

(this list is probably not complete)

Stations in the Minneapolis, St. Louis, and Memphis markets occasionally change cities-of-license across the river and are not required to change callsigns when they do so. For example, there's now a WHHL(FM) in Hazelwood, Missouri, but the station was for decades licensed to Jerseyville, Illinois.

_________________________________________________

Regarding Minneapolis/St. Paul, 63% of the stations licensed to Minneapolis have K calls - though that is a lower proportion than in St. Paul, where 80% of stations have K calls. Ironically, most of Minneapolis lies west of the Mississippi River, including the heart of downtown. Nearly all of St. Paul lies east of the river. (actually, north of the river, which makes a sharp bend at the border between the two cities)

_________________________________________________

WZFG didn't require advance permission from anyone to engage in that emergency nighttime operation. At least, not beyond the permission implicit in FCC regulation 73.1250 which allows such emergency operation. The station is required to file a report with the FCC after the fact explaining what they did and why. I see nothing in 73.1250 requiring any notification whatsoever to WTAM. (though it may well have been done as a courtesy, or at the informal request of Commission staff.)

There is a somewhat confusing additional regulation along these lines referenced in 73.1250. The way I read it, an AM station in an emergency can, without further permission, either use its normally licensed nighttime facilities, or its normally licensed daytime facilities. If it wishes to operate in any other way, it must seek advance permission (through an informal application) from the FCC. Presumably WZFG's 25kw nighttime operation towards the end of this emergency would have required such prior permission. (I would imagine the application was filed by, and approved by, e-mail)

 

[gabigley1]

There is a somewhat confusing additional regulation along these lines referenced in 73.1250. The way I read it, an AM station in an emergency can, without further permission, either use its normally licensed nighttime facilities, or its normally licensed daytime facilities. If it wishes to operate in any other way, it must seek advance permission (through an informal application) from the FCC. Presumably WZFG's 25kw nighttime operation towards the end of this emergency would have required such prior permission. (I would imagine the application was filed by, and approved by, e-mail)

This email from the WZFG, 1100 AM, Chief Engineer should answer most of these question. This is to me and dated April 2, 2009:

Artie;

"The first CP for the station was KKFL. It was then changed to WZFN by the the party that held the CP and constructed the facility. When it was purchased by the current owner the call was changed to WZFG. I don't know how they got it changed to a "W". I've been told that some stations have just applied for a "W" call where it should be a K and the FCC approves it. I'm not certain that is true, but it's what I've heard.

"The FCC rule provide that a station operating under 73.1250 may operate at full daytime facilities during nighttime hours without further authority, which means no need to ask permission. All that is required is that the FCC be notified upon ending emergency operation and a showing provided as to why it was necessary. Our owner did however inform the FCC informally of our action the day after we began. Also as a courtesy we communicated with WTAM and we agreed that 25kw was sufficient to cover the geography needed. Your comment that ND is a pretty rural state is accuarte and the Red River runs from the SD border to the Canadian border. WTAM was more than cooperative and understanding."

Jim Offerdahl

 

[w9wi]

This email from the WZFG, 1100 AM, Chief Engineer should answer most of these question. This is to me and dated April 2, 2009:

Artie;

"The first CP for the station was KKFL. It was then changed to WZFN by the the party that held the CP and constructed the facility. When it was purchased by the current owner the call was changed to WZFG. I don't know how they got it changed to a "W". I've been told that some stations have just applied for a "W" call where it should be a K and the FCC approves it. I'm not certain that is true, but it's what I've heard.

"The FCC rule provide that a station operating under 73.1250 may operate at full daytime facilities during nighttime hours without further authority, which means no need to ask permission. All that is required is that the FCC be notified upon ending emergency operation and a showing provided as to why it was necessary. Our owner did however inform the FCC informally of our action the day after we began. Also as a courtesy we communicated with WTAM and we agreed that 25kw was sufficient to cover the geography needed. Your comment that ND is a pretty rural state is accuarte and the Red River runs from the SD border to the Canadian border. WTAM was more than cooperative and understanding."

Jim Offerdahl

I don't know that it answers how they got a W call, but it certainly answers the permission from WTAM thing...

I do agree that it seems occasionally if someone west of the Mississippi asks for a W call, they get it, and vice-versa.

Minnesota has been a difficult case, because some parts of the state are *NORTH* of the Mississippi, not east or west -- the river rises, what, somewhere near Grand Rapids? I'm told the informal policy is to consider the line as extending due north from the headwaters of the Mississippi to the Canadian border, which it meets just west of International Falls. That doesn't explain why every station licensed to International Falls has a "K" callsign though!

 

[oldiesfan6479]

The first recent mistake was KTGG(AM) near Jackson, Michigan. Rumor has it a clerk thought "MI" was "Missouri".

No doubt that clerk will be appointed as the next Postmaster General. ;D

Wasn't there a station on Long Island, NY that was assigned a "K" call
recently? I have not seen anything further on the goof.

 

[w9wi]

Wasn't there a station on Long Island, NY that was assigned a "K" call
recently? I have not seen anything further on the goof.

I forgot about that one. A non-commercial station in Napeaque (sp?). I think they drew KCBE if I remember properly.

It got changed to WEGB. (and the old K call disappeared from the database)

 

[davideduardo]

Again, the community of Fargo, and all of eastern ND are very very very well serviced by many AM and FM radio stations providing information to the public.

As several have noted, the area affected by the floods was extensive, and not well covered by radio due to the sparse population.

The only decent Fargo signals are 970 and 790, but at night, the coverage areas of these two are very limited... and vastly less than the daytime coverage due to the many cochannel stations on those frequencies.

The FMs, even full C's, have a line of sight coverage area... far less than the flood zone.

WZFG has crossed into abuse, where this station is being selfish and trying to establish this new less than full market at night station in the market of Fargo at the expense of listeners to 1090, 1100, and 1110 over a huge part of the country, and the EAS system millions of people that depend upon, depends upon this station NOT blocking reception for EAS data.

That is even beyond hyperbole. The only affected station might be WTAM, which is far away. No other 1100 station likely received much interference, and 1090 and 1110 outside the primary coverage area of the Fargo MSA station is nil.

No EAS broadcast would have been blocked anywhere.

For example WDAY in the Fargo area my have only 5,000 watts but because of the frequency, soil conductivity, and more importantly because they are on a quiet channel, that signal goes from South Dakota to Canada just fine.

Not at night... the night interference free contour is nowhere comparable to what could be provided on 1100.

There has to be some limit. If a station is the "only game in town" providing a service, well that is what the rule of 73.1250 was written to allow, not this. Not a station who SIGNED ON JUST MONTHS AGO, as WZFG did, and needs to make a name for itself and is doing so by hurting services to others. The FCC needs to step up to the bar and say what is abuse of process and what is not. If this is the new standard, then every time there is a floodwatch, or an Amber alert, then someone who is not happy with his night service is going to abuse rule and hurt someone else.

The rule encourages all stations in a disaster zone to be on the air. The idea is that some or many of them may not be able to stay on the air, but the more that do... and the more that are already providing service... the better the guarantee that there will be some coverage.

Back in the 50's and 60's when AM channels were much clearer at night, I can remember hurricane and storm coverage that I heard in NE Ohio... often I could hear every station in a city or area (like Biloxi / Gulfport) on the air. That was the intent of the FCC, in fact, and they have allowed this sort of operation with no challenges for the last 50-some years.

I also lived many a hurricane in Puerto Rico during the decades I worked there, and we all tried to stay on the air because we knew how fragile the installations of most stations were in the environment of a small island in the middle of the ocean.

If you want to complain about interference to WTAM, then complain about the auroral effect that any number of times let 10 kw Venezuelans or Colombians on 1100 override WTAM within Cuyahoga County at night in the lae 50's and early 60's.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

I'll try to ask this Q in all seriousness, however with my distaste
for a certain product used on some AM transmissions, I'm not sure
if I can ask it without some bias...

When an AM is doing emergency coverage for their area (as is the
case in Fargo) by using its daytime facilities (day power, ND) at
night, are they, or shouldn't they be, required to turn off I-CRAP?

While I have no qualms with any temporary interference to other
stations on the center freq. due to the nature of the emergency
coverage, why should stations on the first- and second-adjacent
freqs. be impacted by the high-powered hash?

 

[The Beave]

Old Gringo,

For the FIRST time I agree with what you said below 100%
The folks in Phoenix said you were full of it.

Pure facts on this one. 8)

 

[The Beave]

I'll try to ask this Q in all seriousness, however with my distaste
for a certain product used on some AM transmissions, I'm not sure
if I can ask it without some bias...

When an AM is doing emergency coverage for their area (as is the
case in Fargo) by using its daytime facilities (day power, ND) at
night, are they, or shouldn't they be, required to turn off I-CRAP?

While I have no qualms with any temporary interference to other
stations on the center freq. due to the nature of the emergency
coverage, why should stations on the first- and second-adjacent
freqs. be impacted by the high-powered hash?

WTAM may have I-crap... We never did at WZFG. (atleast to the best of my knowlege)

"We are just a Class B station with the work ethic of a Class A Clear."

 

[franksandhotdogs]

I meant to say WTAM was notified (which isn't required) by WZFG. My bad.

The Mississippi begins at Lake Itasca, southwest of Bemidji. Dilworth is west of the river.

 

[cgould]

WTAM may have I-crap... We never did at WZFG. (atleast to the best of my knowlege)

"We are just a Class B station with the work ethic of a Class A Clear."

Actually, the IBOC system for WTAM has been off for over a week now (since I've noticed). Don't know if this has something to do with the Fargo station night time emergency, or if its been broken, or they decided to turn it off. Whatever the reason, it's been really nice to hear full bandwidth AM audio on WTAM again :-D

-C

 

[radioman148]

I haven't heard Fargo here in the Chicago area here for several nights. Apparently they're back on low power.

 

[w9wi]

I'll try to ask this Q in all seriousness, however with my distaste
for a certain product used on some AM transmissions, I'm not sure
if I can ask it without some bias...

When an AM is doing emergency coverage for their area (as is the
case in Fargo) by using its daytime facilities (day power, ND) at
night, are they, or shouldn't they be, required to turn off I-CRAP?

Seriously, no, there is no requirement to suspend digital operation during emergency daytime-facilities operation.

Should there be? Trying (unsuccessfully) to avoid releasing my similar prejudice

The theory is that digital operation doesn't cause harmful interference outside the station's own channel. I mean, if it *did*, then WTAM couldn't operate in digital at night -- it would interfere with stations in the 1080-1120 band like WTIC, WBAL, WBT, and KMOX.

WZFG's 50,000 watts analog power (and (hypothetical) proportional digital power) are no more capable of causing interference in 1080-1120 than WTAM's.

So if the theory is accurate, there is no need to require suspension of digital operation in these cases.

(of course, many observers believe that theory is NOT accurate)

 

[radioman148]

Indeed we do.

 

[The Beave]

I haven't heard Fargo here in the Chicago area here for several nights. Apparently they're back on low power.

Back on low power a week ago Thurs.

 

[radioman148]

That explains it. Thanks!