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rfrus said:
Years ago they were licensed to Largo. How did they manage to get a COL change back then to a lager city, which was virtually impossible? Happened in the early 80s.
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WTSP Illegal ID
- Thread starter rfrus
- Start date
Years ago they were licensed to Largo. How did they manage to get a COL change back then to a lager city, which was virtually impossible? Happened in the early 80s.
Channel 10 has always been allocated to St. Petersburg, but back when WLCY-TV originally came on the air, they only had a 500ft tower and couldnt city grade St. Petersburg, thats when the COL was changed to Largo. When they built the 1549ft tower they could city grade St. Petersburg so the COL was just changed back to St. Petersburg where the channel was allocated all along.
Sarasota/Bradenton actually lost ABC TV when channel 10 went on the air. You could get WSUN-TV channel 38 in Sarasota, but not channel 10.
Sarasota/Bradenton actually lost ABC TV when channel 10 went on the air. You could get WSUN-TV channel 38 in Sarasota, but not channel 10.
The ID is gone...
WXLT/40 originally had its transmitter east of Venice and was ABC for both Sarasota and Ft. Myers. When channel 26 in Ft. Myers came on the air, channel 40 moved their transmitter to Parrish where it is today.
Today Sarasota has no over the air CBS as you cant pick up channel 10 or channel 11(9 soon to be 50) reliabley.
Today Sarasota has no over the air CBS as you cant pick up channel 10 or channel 11(9 soon to be 50) reliabley.
Comcast does not use the OTA for WWSB. If fact, if they wanted to, they wouldn't have to use the call letters at all on the cable.rfrus said:
The Parrish antenna was off the air one day about 20 years ago and none of the viewers noticed.
The license is for that OTA transmitter only - not for the broadcasted information.
IF you check any cable channels, you will not see an OTA legal ID because they are cable only and not licensed as an OTA station.
Check out SNN6 or Bay News 9. There is no call letters and COL. It is not WSNN-Sarasota or WBNN-Largo.
Scott has seen many TV transmitters, but I guess the question never came up in conversation because of all the other informtion the engineers are more than happy to give. I found, in the past, the engineers were more than happy to receive guests interested in their equipment and the technology.
If you want to see confusion, check out WNET. Their ID is WNET-Newark which quickly disolves into WNET-New York - but it's legal.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
badjef said:
And it appears that way both OTA and on cable and satellite.
I do, in fact, often ask the very question Jeff seems to think I haven't asked, and the answer is always the same: the feed to cable is the same MCR output that goes to the OTA transmitter. The legal ID at most stations these days is part of a production element, usually a promo or a newscast open. Why go to the trouble of creating a separate legal ID-free production element just to spare cable viewers a glancing look at a set of call letters?
At the particular station where I work, our OTA transmitter goes off the air from time to time for planned (and sometimes unplanned) maintenance. We have a fiber feed to cable that remains active, and those viewers still see "WXXI-TV Rochester" even when we're not on the air on UHF. The same is true of everyone else in town.
Jeff, can you cite an actual example of a station that's doing what you describe (no legal ID on the MCR output, ID inserted at the transmitter only for OTA viewers), or are you just surmising?
Just to reinforce Scott's post...
Jeff is correct, in that it is technically possible to provide cable/satellite a separate feed without legal IDs, and it would be legal to do so.
However, Scott is also correct, at least to the best of my knowledge, in that I've never heard of a station that actually does it that way.
These days, the legal ID is almost always integrated as a graphic element in a promo spot. The ID is placed on the promo as part of the editing process in the promotions department.
Providing a feed without the ID would require running a separate spot playback channel. It would also require the promo editors to produce two versions of each spot. (one with ID, one without)
It's simply not worth the effort.
Jeff is correct, in that it is technically possible to provide cable/satellite a separate feed without legal IDs, and it would be legal to do so.
However, Scott is also correct, at least to the best of my knowledge, in that I've never heard of a station that actually does it that way.
These days, the legal ID is almost always integrated as a graphic element in a promo spot. The ID is placed on the promo as part of the editing process in the promotions department.
Providing a feed without the ID would require running a separate spot playback channel. It would also require the promo editors to produce two versions of each spot. (one with ID, one without)
It's simply not worth the effort.
And I'll add more reinforcement to Scott's post...since I've been with him to many of those TV stations. (A fraction, admittedly...when Scott says he's been at a lot of TV stations, it is a HUGE understatement!)
You could theoretically splice in a character generator at the transmitter, and superimpose "WXXX Smallville" on only the OTA signal once an hour automatically, but why bother going to that time and expense and trouble?
I will confirm that in every visit I've made with Scott to a TV MCR, all of the non-OTA cable feeds get the same feed off of the control board that the transmitter does. And it's a question *I* will ask, too.
You could theoretically splice in a character generator at the transmitter, and superimpose "WXXX Smallville" on only the OTA signal once an hour automatically, but why bother going to that time and expense and trouble?
I will confirm that in every visit I've made with Scott to a TV MCR, all of the non-OTA cable feeds get the same feed off of the control board that the transmitter does. And it's a question *I* will ask, too.
I think I can think of one counter-example, actually - some years back, Daystar appeared to be sending the Boston-area Comcast signals the direct Daystar network satellite feed rather than the feed of its WYDN 48 Worcester/Boston. WYDN OTA viewers saw the Daystar feed with a crude "WYDN 48 Worcester" Chyron in one corner, while Comcast viewers didn't see the ID. Even that has changed now.
(And now that I think about it, that particular example raises another interesting question: Daystar had asserted must-carry rights for WYDN on Comcast's Boston system, and in order to do so it had to deliver a usable signal to Comcast's headend at its own expense. It chose to do so by installing a downlink to receive the Daystar satellite signal directly, rather than going to the greater expense of getting the WYDN signal itself from its old analog site near Worcester to the headend. I have a very, very vague recollection of seeing an FCC ruling at one point in which a cable system had challenged a station's similar attempt to deliver its signal for must-carry in such a way, and had ordered it to deliver the actual as-aired programming, presumably complete with legal IDs. I don't recall the exact circumstances of the ruling anymore, alas.)
(And now that I think about it, that particular example raises another interesting question: Daystar had asserted must-carry rights for WYDN on Comcast's Boston system, and in order to do so it had to deliver a usable signal to Comcast's headend at its own expense. It chose to do so by installing a downlink to receive the Daystar satellite signal directly, rather than going to the greater expense of getting the WYDN signal itself from its old analog site near Worcester to the headend. I have a very, very vague recollection of seeing an FCC ruling at one point in which a cable system had challenged a station's similar attempt to deliver its signal for must-carry in such a way, and had ordered it to deliver the actual as-aired programming, presumably complete with legal IDs. I don't recall the exact circumstances of the ruling anymore, alas.)
Two points, Daystar (thought that rang a bell) is still in the news:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B10RL20101202
and as far as WWSB, some people still watch OTA television and for some reason, even though Channel 40's/26 actual channel/psuedo channel 7's tower is a relatively short stick near Parrish, I manage to pick it up better than WFTS. (I seem to be in dead zone for some of the transmission out of Riverview)
From what I've read and recall Channel 40 came on the air in late 1971. So there were several years that people in the Sarasota/Bradenton area had to reach out to get a signal for ABC; with channel 10's original short stick, sometimes it was a challenge to receive channel 10 in parts of St. Pete as well.
drt
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B10RL20101202
and as far as WWSB, some people still watch OTA television and for some reason, even though Channel 40's/26 actual channel/psuedo channel 7's tower is a relatively short stick near Parrish, I manage to pick it up better than WFTS. (I seem to be in dead zone for some of the transmission out of Riverview)
From what I've read and recall Channel 40 came on the air in late 1971. So there were several years that people in the Sarasota/Bradenton area had to reach out to get a signal for ABC; with channel 10's original short stick, sometimes it was a challenge to receive channel 10 in parts of St. Pete as well.
drt
Scott Fybush said:
Scott, I'm curious to know what this "separate ABC feed" entails.
B&W kinnies of Dark Shadows a week late?
Nah, it's not as intriguing as that.
The defacto ABC affiliate in the Monterey/Salinas market for many years was KNTV/11 San Jose, which of course, is actually in the San Francisco/San Jose/Oakland market, and was its secondary ABC affiliate after KGO/7.
KNTV dumped ABC, and was eventually bought by NBC after that network severed ties with long-time affiliate KRON/4 - new owner Young Broadcasting declined to pay network clearance fees.
With the move to NBC, it messed up KNTV's status as the ABC affiliate serving Monterey/Salinas. The market has a long-time NBC affiliate, KSBW/8.
KGO-TV then mounted a cable only feed of its own ABC programming, which filled the void (to some degree). IIRC, it is not just a straight KGO-TV feed with Monterey/Salinas market ads...I think they have to observe syndex protection in the market, and pre-empt syndicated programming seen otherwise on the market's other existing stations.
The defacto ABC affiliate in the Monterey/Salinas market for many years was KNTV/11 San Jose, which of course, is actually in the San Francisco/San Jose/Oakland market, and was its secondary ABC affiliate after KGO/7.
KNTV dumped ABC, and was eventually bought by NBC after that network severed ties with long-time affiliate KRON/4 - new owner Young Broadcasting declined to pay network clearance fees.
With the move to NBC, it messed up KNTV's status as the ABC affiliate serving Monterey/Salinas. The market has a long-time NBC affiliate, KSBW/8.
KGO-TV then mounted a cable only feed of its own ABC programming, which filled the void (to some degree). IIRC, it is not just a straight KGO-TV feed with Monterey/Salinas market ads...I think they have to observe syndex protection in the market, and pre-empt syndicated programming seen otherwise on the market's other existing stations.
Scott Fybush said:
I wonder if TBN feeds some of the local systems with the national feed, vs. WDLI/17 OTA.
You are correct, of course, that graphics originate from MCR. The ID becomes part of the graphic. And it is probably to keep the audience familiar with the station. WOR-TV made a big deal when they were sent to solitary confinement in Secaucus. But the transmitter remained on Empire. The reality was they only changed their COL. The studio change, extra “W”, and ownership x2 (or x3) came later.Scott Fybush said:
I never said the stations offered a separate feed. It was a suggestion that that might be where it was and why they hadn’t seen it if they were watching on cable/dish.
But, I am not surmising, either.
There is a transmitter and a studio. The transmitter is FCC licensed, the studio is not.
Since the call letters are not assigned to a studio, only the transmitter, only the transmitter needs to see the legal FCC assigned ID. WTSP, I have noticed it and TiVo’d it to be sure. But WTSP is a great example of a station that would be in a perfect position to do it. I have my antenna turned toward Ft. Myers for the blacked out Bucs games. WTSP won’t come in on the backside anymore since digital.
At some time in the not so distant future OTA television will have the final nail in the coffin. With cable, dish, and internet offering so many other choices for the eyeballs, it will not be worth the electricity to keep OTA on.
Why aren’t the broadcasters in NYC going ahead with the rebuild downtown? Stay at the temporary Empire. It isn’t worth the effort even in #1 to move. (but nothing is etched in stone there, either)
If radio goes completely digital, the same will apply. Show me the call letters and legal ID on an internet only radio station. “Radio Russia – Your Dance Connection” doesn’t count, it would be a slogan. Neither would “KKGO-New York.”
Satellite radio has no ID’s. The closest they came was “XM radio – Planet Earth.” On their 80’s on 8 channel – still not a legally licensed ID, though.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
rfrus said:
Be that as it may, programming is not the issue, here. FCC legal is.
There are channels, set aside, on cable systems for local access. Some of them have, and can be picked up, OTA. Those will have call signs attached and displayed.
SNN6 is not FCC licensed. It is a direct feed to Comcast headend.
I brought up SNN as an example of a local channel with no ID. If they were to simulcast with an OTA LPTV, you would see an FCC assigned call sign and COL, just as the big boys do.
All radio and TV stations have to ID for OTA transmissions, only. Some, in the Public Service, ID in morse code.
Don't you guys listen to scanners?
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
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