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X 'Cuse Me

I just got back from a week-long road trip from Buffalo, NY to Boston, MA. I'm a radio junkie - and a 30-year vet of the business now working part-time for a Citadel station in Buffalo. Now, I'm not a real audiophile, but I have the stock AM/FM/CD in my car tweaked to sound reasonably flat when listening to FM. I like to hear all of the music - lows, mids, highs, but I'm used to compression. As a matter of fact, I prefer it to uncompressed CD sound.

I listened to radio in Buffalo, Batavia, Rochester, Geneva, Auburn, Syracuse, Utica, Little Falls, Saratoga, Albany, The Berkshires, Hartford, Springfield, Worcester, and most of the Boston signals. Of all the radio I heard, the WORST audio was undeniably in SYRACUSE.

WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE LISTENING TO? I've never heard so many bottom-heavy, overcompressed radio stations in one market. And when I say compressed, I mean to the point of distortion. Most embarassing of all, the Citadel stations were among the worst offenders.

Now, I know that CHRs crank up the bottom end, and I heard that in a lot of places, but at least the bottom end wasn't distorted. Not in Syracuse. Both Hot and NTQ sound worse than comparable formats in other markets.

The worst offender to my ears was 95X. The bottom end is so distorted, and the vocals so hard to hear that it's physically tiresome to listen to. I thought maybe the problem was with the newer music, which I know has the dynamic range of a brick, but I heard the same crappy audio on older songs that sounded fine on other stations. I've heard mp3s streamed over a modem connection that sound better.

The Galaxy stations were among the more listenable from an audio standpoint. Some of the Citadel and Clear Channel stations were terrible.

Now, maybe Interstate 90 isn't the best place to listen from, but I heard the same thing on the way to Boston, and on the way home. As a matter of fact, I stopped for dinner in Syracuse so I'd have a little more time to listen. That makes me think that it's not a short-term problem. I don't know if it's the way music is recorded when it's added to the hard drive, or the processing itself, but the end result is the worst audio I heard in two states. Locally produced commercials were also noticeably worse in audio quality than national ads.

OK. Flame away guys. Say what you want, but that's what I heard. Listen critically, and I think you'll find that I'm not too far off the mark. I heard better audio in freakin' UTICA.

This is strictly an evaluation of the audio quality. Comments regarding air talent would be a bit unfair considering the minimal listening time in the market.
 
I speak for industry and by that I mean the business and say who cares
 
> I speak for industry and by that I mean the business and say who cares

Apparently, not the PD's and engineering staff of the stations mentioned.

You're absolutely right...Hot's audio is offensive. They sound HORRIBLE.
They used to have the best sounding audio chain in the city. Who's running the processing over there? Helen Keller??

"Who cares?"...UGH!

Well...one of the few things terrestrial has going for it now is audio quality.
XM & Sirius can't have all the bells, buzzers & whistles (compression, eq, reverb etc...) due to bandwidth limitations (Mpeggy artifacts etc...) When the time comes (and it will) for FM to start actively counterprogramming against the satellite services, audio quality will be a MAJOR factor and selling point.

So..ya better start caring. Dummy.
 
>
> The Galaxy stations were among the more listenable from an
> audio standpoint. Some of the Citadel and Clear Channel
> stations were terrible.
>


Agreed... Galaxy's TK and WSCP have great audio chains- Best in the market. K-ROCK's is tight with a just right amount of clipping. SUNNY is a little soft for my liking, but very listenable.

B104 & HOT have the worst processing ever. Y94 isn't too far behind. 95X is truly a distored mess and 93Q is all mid-range- I think their Gregg boxes need to be proofed. Digital multi-band boxes are dangerous in the hands of someone who has no clue.

All the Citadel & CC stations have brutal microphone processing as well.

WSEN needs to toss the old Orban 8000 and at least get a 8100 with some pre-processing. The simulated plate verb sound ok. Their stereo separtation is nice, but it makes their percieved modulation sound low.
 
Gregg Labs

Those Gregg boxes were gnarly back in the day IF you had one. Maybe they are too long in the tooth now. As one who had one I always found them a bitch to set up---just not enough control.

Does 95-X still use a Sennheiser 421 as an on-air mic? God bless you if you can make your voice sound good using one, because not many people seem to be able to pull it off.

As far as HOT they used to sound AWESOME for a short time back when Ed LaComb was programming the station. I guess corporate made him get rid of the bitchin' processing because it allegedly sounded "too different" than the rest of the market. Or so I hear the story goes........
 
>
> So..ya better start caring. Dummy.
>

let me check.... NOPE still don't give a crap
 
Re: Gregg Labs

> Those Gregg boxes were gnarly back in the day IF you had
> one. Maybe they are too long in the tooth now. As one who
> had one I always found them a bitch to set up---just not
> enough control.

I used the original Gregg prototype back in '91... He actually installed it personally. The original was really only slightly better than an 8100 Optimod. It was really the same box with different crossover points & a composite clipper built in.

>
> As far as HOT they used to sound AWESOME for a short time
> back when Ed LaComb was programming the station. I guess
> corporate made him get rid of the bitchin' processing
> because it allegedly sounded "too different" than the rest
> of the market. Or so I hear the story goes........
>

True story... The CRL gear was set by Conrad, the Cox Syracuse engineer. Bob Neil made Hot replace it with an 8100, aligned to COX's "CHR settings". Everyone on staff was pissed. Now, they use an OMNIA, but I'm not sure which version... probably version 5.
 
> I just got back from a week-long road trip from Buffalo, NY
> to Boston, MA. I'm a radio junkie - and a 30-year vet of
> the business now working part-time for a Citadel station in
> Buffalo. Now, I'm not a real audiophile, but I have the
> stock AM/FM/CD in my car tweaked to sound reasonably flat
> when listening to FM. I like to hear all of the music -
> lows, mids, highs, but I'm used to compression. As a matter
> of fact, I prefer it to uncompressed CD sound.
>
> I listened to radio in Buffalo, Batavia, Rochester, Geneva,
> Auburn, Syracuse, Utica, Little Falls, Saratoga, Albany, The
> Berkshires, Hartford, Springfield, Worcester, and most of
> the Boston signals. Of all the radio I heard, the WORST
> audio was undeniably in SYRACUSE.
>
> WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE LISTENING TO? I've never heard so many
> bottom-heavy, overcompressed radio stations in one market.
> And when I say compressed, I mean to the point of
> distortion. Most embarassing of all, the Citadel stations
> were among the worst offenders.
>
> Now, I know that CHRs crank up the bottom end, and I heard
> that in a lot of places, but at least the bottom end wasn't
> distorted. Not in Syracuse. Both Hot and NTQ sound worse
> than comparable formats in other markets.
>
> The worst offender to my ears was 95X. The bottom end is so
> distorted, and the vocals so hard to hear that it's
> physically tiresome to listen to. I thought maybe the
> problem was with the newer music, which I know has the
> dynamic range of a brick, but I heard the same crappy audio
> on older songs that sounded fine on other stations. I've
> heard mp3s streamed over a modem connection that sound
> better.
>
> The Galaxy stations were among the more listenable from an
> audio standpoint. Some of the Citadel and Clear Channel
> stations were terrible.
>
> Now, maybe Interstate 90 isn't the best place to listen
> from, but I heard the same thing on the way to Boston, and
> on the way home. As a matter of fact, I stopped for dinner
> in Syracuse so I'd have a little more time to listen. That
> makes me think that it's not a short-term problem. I don't
> know if it's the way music is recorded when it's added to
> the hard drive, or the processing itself, but the end result
> is the worst audio I heard in two states. Locally produced
> commercials were also noticeably worse in audio quality than
> national ads.
>
> OK. Flame away guys. Say what you want, but that's what I
> heard. Listen critically, and I think you'll find that I'm
> not too far off the mark. I heard better audio in freakin'
> UTICA.
>
> This is strictly an evaluation of the audio quality.
> Comments regarding air talent would be a bit unfair
> considering the minimal listening time in the market.
>
I forget the name of the Galaxy engineer out of Utica who always made WRCK sound so great. The guy is an audio genious. It's been a few years since I heard them but 107.3 in particlar and 94.9 sounded awesome.
 
Re: Gregg Labs

> True story... The CRL gear was set by Conrad, the Cox
> Syracuse engineer. Bob Neil made Hot replace it with an
> 8100, aligned to COX's "CHR settings". Everyone on staff was
> pissed. Now, they use an OMNIA, but I'm not sure which
> version... probably version 5.


I just remember it sounding AMAZING. It was very loud and punchy, but at the same time the audio was super clean and transparent.
 
Well I can speak for a fact, that the 3 main reasons that the Galaxy Stations sound so good, is

#1-Dave Doughty...The engineering genius of Galaxy. The man could build a radio station out of a pile of scraps ( and so he has). If it wasn't for his ear, Tim Whatshisname out of the Syracuse Galaxy stations would have all the Syr stations sounding like CC.

#2 is the fact, that all the audio from Galaxy's automation is PURE WAVE. No Mp3 compression at all. At least it was in 2002 when I still worked for them.

#3 Most of the audio chain for the Galaxy Stations is pure Digital... T-1's and such...Can't beam microwave out of either hole (Washington Mills or Walton Street)

Feel free to flame, cause I don't care, I'm 6 hours away and listen to a station that's fringe at best, cause Pittsburgh can't program a decent A/C
 
It's always funny to see people posting on here like they have the inside scoop...

The following information is on behalf of the "Freedom from Disinformation Act"...

It's true, Dave has a great ear, and his stations proove it. And he keeps close tabs on all of the transmitter funniness that can degrade the audio.

It's untrue that I, Tim Whatshisname, want to sound like CC.

Dave and I are on the same page audio-wise. Loudness is important, but not at the cost of the extreme distortion and coloration that the Omnias gone wrong are producing at CC.

As a matter of fact, I was the chief at the Syracuse CC stations for a while and can tell you that, when I had control of the processing, most outside of the building were pleased.

This includes the early days of Hot 107 ala Ed Lacomb.

Unfortunately, politics, programmers, and consultants rule the roost, and people who had no business adjusting processing were given the golden key (or the power to order bad changes). I imagine that is still the case.

Smokey Rivers was also right - the Omnias have a bizillion controls that all interact, so they can be a bear to adjust when you know what you're doing. It can take a couple of weeks of tiny tweaks, but they can sound awesome. Get a PD in there cranking everything to 12 in one sitting and who knows what you'll end up with!

Anyway, hope that sheds some reality on the subject...

Tim "whatshisname" Backer
 
Re: Correction!

> Well I can speak for a fact, that the 3 main reasons that
> the Galaxy Stations sound so good, is
>
> #1-Dave Doughty...The engineering genius of Galaxy. The man
> could build a radio station out of a pile of scraps ( and so
> he has). If it wasn't for his ear, Tim Whatshisname out of
> the Syracuse Galaxy stations would have all the Syr stations
> sounding like CC.
>
> #2 is the fact, that all the audio from Galaxy's automation
> is PURE WAVE. No Mp3 compression at all. At least it was in
> 2002 when I still worked for them.

Let me correct you on a couple of your points... The Galaxy Syracuse processing is a Tim Backer production! Before he got to Walton Street, SUNNY 102 was clipped beyond belief and TK was overly flat. Dave does not deserve the credit for how the stations sound.

Tim also modified ANALOG processing for the station... He really knows how to trick out an 8100 and set up appropriate pre-processing! I believe only KROCK has a digital box. And yes, I believe Galaxy is still non-compressed WAV at 44.1k.

The problem with Omnia, as Tim discusses in the next post, is indeed the amount of controls... You adjust one, and you have to adjust all the others- None are independent of the others. The crossover points are illogical, as well and the box is just plain gritty- Good for Modern Rock and not much else.
 
Re: Correction!

Actually, digital, adjusted properly, can blow away analog.

The Omnia is capable of soo much more smoothness and balance while being wicked loud.

Unfortunately not many know how to get there, or are forced to upload the "Brand" preset from corporate.

Upload your format to the automation, upload your processing settings, upload your RDS text, and BINGO - instant homogenized cookie-cutter format!
 
Re: Correction!

> Actually, digital, adjusted properly, can blow away analog.
>
> The Omnia is capable of soo much more smoothness and balance
> while being wicked loud.
>
> Unfortunately not many know how to get there, or are forced
> to upload the "Brand" preset from corporate.
>
> Upload your format to the automation, upload your processing
> settings, upload your RDS text, and BINGO - instant
> homogenized cookie-cutter format!
>

You're a great guy Tim, but I challange you to find any PD over the age of thirty that likes the sound of digital over analog... Most PD's you ask would gladly throw the Omnia in the scrapheap for a 8100, a pair of Texar prizms and a composite clipper. Not that Digital boxes can't sound great, I just think any PD who worked with analog processing prefers the characteristics- But hell, I love hearing a tune played off a newly loaded cart, so what do I know :)

But, I'll say again- Your Syracuse stations sound great!
 
Re: Correction!

> > Actually, digital, adjusted properly, can blow away
> analog.
> >
> > The Omnia is capable of soo much more smoothness and
> balance
> > while being wicked loud.
> >
> > Unfortunately not many know how to get there, or are
> forced
> > to upload the "Brand" preset from corporate.
> >
> > Upload your format to the automation, upload your
> processing
> > settings, upload your RDS text, and BINGO - instant
> > homogenized cookie-cutter format!
> >
>
> You're a great guy Tim, but I challange you to find any PD
> over the age of thirty that likes the sound of digital over
> analog... Most PD's you ask would gladly throw the Omnia in
> the scrapheap for a 8100, a pair of Texar prizms and a
> composite clipper. Not that Digital boxes can't sound great,
> I just think any PD who worked with analog processing
> prefers the characteristics- But hell, I love hearing a tune
> played off a newly loaded cart, so what do I know :)
>
> But, I'll say again- Your Syracuse stations sound great!
>
They sound great?How do you explain krock?Maybe this "genius" engineer can undo his tool belt and help Pettybone play some good music!
 
Misdirection

> They sound great?How do you explain krock?Maybe this
> "genius" engineer can undo his tool belt and help Pettybone
> play some good music!

Hey, poop, nice try at deflecting the topic, but we're not going for it.

The guy who started this thread addressed audio quality, not programming. Engineers don't deal with programming - fortunately for both engineers and programmers.

The fact that NOBODY from CC or CC Jr. has addressed the original post indicates that they must be aware their audio sounds like poop. Let's hope they're embarassed enough to fix the problem. Studies show that bad, overcompressed and distorted audio shorten listening times and drive away listeners. Loud ain't everything. And, you can't blame it on corporate. CC & CC Jr. stations in other markets DON'T sound as bad as Syracuse.
 
Embrace the future...

> I challange you to find any PD over the age of thirty that
> likes the sound of digital over analog...

It's all in the ear of the beholder.

The now 20+ year old 8100 can still hold it's own, especially if the competition is as, ummmm...'good' at adjusting processing as ours seems to be.

But a properly adjusted, repeat, properly adjusted, Omnia, 8400, DSP-X, etc. will definitely beat it. The bottom line is that digital processing CAN BE cleaner, louder, and more consistent without becomming fatiguing.

Is it possible that you and "any PD over the age of thirty" either haven't heard a properly adjusted digital box, or are mentally hooked on the legend/brand-regognition of "8100 with Prisms"?

Eventually, Galaxy will begin updating to digital boxes. I've played with a few current offerings and have a box in mind. During testing, it was deemed by quite a few golden ears as the most smooth, consistent audio they've heard on a station.

I'm proud of my, ahhh... 'customized' processing, but digital processing will offer all the tools to customize any way we want, out of the box - without modifications.

Time to clean the smoke out of your ears, Smokey - the future is coming and it isn't as bad as you think!

WhatsHisName
 
Re: Correction!

> They sound great?How do you explain krock?Maybe this
> "genius" engineer can undo his tool belt and help Pettybone
> play some good music!

Petibone.... He, well, he hears the beat of his own drum. Really loud sometimes - makes him pace the halls and mumble to himself alot.

Tell ya what, your 'holiness', when my boss decides to cut costs and make me the PD for everything as well as the engineer, I'll take your complaints "under advisement"...

In the mean time, keep an eye on the sky for those damn flying pigs... oh - and thanks for listening to K-Rock so much!

Tim_WhatsHisName
Chief Engineer and Jr. Associate Program Director
 
Re: Correction!

Hey Tango Whiskey,

Careful what you ask for, or else you'll be programming (again) too!

This P-I-M-P guy is a character, isn't he??
 
Re: Clear Channel to Breakup Like Viacom?

> > They sound great?How do you explain krock?Maybe this
> > "genius" engineer can undo his tool belt and help
> Pettybone
> > play some good music!
>
> Hey, poop, nice try at deflecting the topic, but we're not
> going for it.
>
> The guy who started this thread addressed audio quality, not
> programming. Engineers don't deal with programming -
> fortunately for both engineers and programmers.
>
> The fact that NOBODY from CC or CC Jr. has addressed the
> original post indicates that they must be aware their audio
> sounds like poop. Let's hope they're embarassed enough to
> fix the problem. Studies show that bad, overcompressed and
> distorted audio shorten listening times and drive away
> listeners. Loud ain't everything. And, you can't blame it on
> corporate. CC & CC Jr. stations in other markets DON'T sound
> as bad as Syracuse.
> That's because Joel Delmonico runs Syracuse and takes orders from no one.
In fact,the rumor is that Clear Channel is going to break Syracuse off into its own Company like Viacom did yesterday with its stations.You'd have the 1190+ CCU stations trading as "CCU".You'd have the 7 Syracuse stations trading under "JOEL"
 
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