Yet *ANOTHER* terrible move by the Eagle

[Rudy Fitzneris]

Let us continue, because you can only attach 5 images on this forum.

HOUSTON:




WASHINGTON:




ATLANTA:




PHILLY:




BOSTON:




Philly has a 3rd sports station, and it has a 1.1.

A lot of the discussion about ratings on this forum are difficult at best, when we cannot see the demo break downs, the cume, or the TSL. We can't go back in time and see fluctuations either, IE. what happened when Eagle acquired the Mavs...

From a personal standpoint, I DO know a lot about the rock format, and what the Eagle was doing was never going to be any better than the high 1 shares. I've stated a million times on this board the very simple things wrong, that if fixed, could repair that station to be back in the top 10, 12+. (For those who missed it - stop playing oldies, stop playing alternative, drop the talk shows, drop the mavs asap, hire a edgy morning show, and apologize like crazy for the past few years of getting it wrong. ADMIT IT and beg for forgiveness.)

From a business angle. No, the Eagle sucked - however, no one had an ear to repair it. One of the big problems with AOR right now is you have a lot of OLD MEN programming ACTIVE ROCK stations. So there are a lot of people that JUST look at the numbers and say, "Hey that 'rock' station ain't doing good. Lets change it." I digress, so yes in that scenario, since you're going to change it, now you have to figure out to what.

Here's where I'm completely lost. Sports? A THIRD SPORTS STATION? Okay okay okay - let's also go ahead and give credit to Mike Rhyner (who I think is overrated, but anyway), Ben Rogers and Jeff ‘Skin’ Wade (whom I think are weak as a TALK show. Maybe they are better at more sports.), Julie Dobbs and Mike Sirois. KRLD is 23rd rank and The Ticket is 7th. KRLD sounds very good. I've been listening for the past 2 or 3 months. And of course, the Ticket is incredible. Back to business. Where do you see the station being in 6 months, a year, 2 years, 3 years? How long do you give it to succeed in market #5?

Here's another question that I've seen no one ask - how will the Ticket AUDIENCE see the move of Rhyner to 97.1? He is coming out of retirement to work for a radio station called "THE FREAK"? I've looked at his social media accounts, and there is a VERY LOW amount of response or interaction on them. Will the audience really care if he comes back? I understand his background, relevancy, and success - don't get me wrong. But I think those questions are worth asking. There is a BIG chance this gamble is going to lose, both ratings-wise and monetarily.

We'll see though, won't we? We can revisit this thread in one year and see who was right and who was wrong.

 

[davideduardo]

For giggles, let's look at the top 10 markets and see if any of them have a 3rd Sports station, and if they do, how well they're doing.

Just for giggles.

NEW YORK:
LOS ANGELES:
CHICAGO:
SAN FRANCISCO:
DALLAS:

Granted, yes, this is 12+, but in the top 5 markets, the highest a 2nd sports station got was a 1.8.

None of the top 5 markets has more than one sports station.

You are missing the point that sports stations almost universally outbill their ratings significantly.

Again, for about the 25th time I have said this: the best example is the station that for two decades was around 15th in 12+ in New York City... but #1 in revenue... WFAN. And that performance is neither rare nor exceptional.

Today, in Dallas KTCK is #1 in billings, and KRLD-FM is 10th
In Chicago, WSCR is 3rd in revenue.
In LA, KLAC is 9th or 10th in revenue.
In NYC, WFAN is tied for 3rd and only about 5% or so away from #1. WEPN ranks twice as high in revenue as it does in share.

Those stations a giggling all the way to the bank.

So a second or even third sports station will do much better than its 12+ share... and not have to worry about music audiences moving over to streaming alternatives.

 

[Rudy Fitzneris]

I get it. WE GET IT. You know everything.

We'll see.

 

[davideduardo]

Let us continue, because you can only attach 5 images on this forum.

Philly has a 3rd sports station, and it has a 1.1.

Yet it bills like a 3 share music station.

A lot of the discussion about ratings on this forum are difficult at best, when we cannot see the demo break downs, the cume, or the TSL. We can't go back in time and see fluctuations either, IE. what happened when Eagle acquired the Mavs...

And you can't see how sports stations overindex on revenue almost universally.

From a personal standpoint, I DO know a lot about the rock format, and what the Eagle was doing was never going to be any better than the high 1 shares. I've stated a million times on this board the very simple things wrong, that if fixed, could repair that station to be back in the top 10, 12+. (For those who missed it - stop playing oldies, stop playing alternative, drop the talk shows, drop the mavs asap, hire a edgy morning show, and apologize like crazy for the past few years of getting it wrong. ADMIT IT and beg for forgiveness.)

That might have worked in the diary two decades ago. But not in a market that is totally changed in its ethnic composition and in a world where most people under 40 are into rhythmic music, not rock. Oh, and where the PPM severely punished high TSL low cume formats.

From a business angle. No, the Eagle sucked - however, no one had an ear to repair it. One of the big problems with AOR right now is you have a lot of OLD MEN programming ACTIVE ROCK stations. So there are a lot of people that JUST look at the numbers and say, "Hey that 'rock' station ain't doing good. Lets change it." I digress, so yes in that scenario, since you're going to change it, now you have to figure out to what.

Age has nothing to do with it. We program based on finding out what different listener groups like, and use our experience to assemble a format that pleases them.

Here's where I'm completely lost. Sports? A THIRD SPORTS STATION? Okay okay okay - let's also go ahead and give credit to Mike Rhyner (who I think is overrated, but anyway), Ben Rogers and Jeff ‘Skin’ Wade (whom I think are weak as a TALK show. Maybe they are better at more sports.), Julie Dobbs and Mike Sirois. KRLD is 23rd rank and The Ticket is 7th. KRLD sounds very good. I've been listening for the past 2 or 3 months. And of course, the Ticket is incredible. Back to business. Where do you see the station being in 6 months, a year, 2 years, 3 years? How long do you give it to succeed in market #5?

You are using ratings as the measure of success. Sports can carry higher spot loads, and the format is favored by clients as well as being eligible for sports marketing dollars as well as ad budgets.

Here's another question that I've seen no one ask - how will the Ticket AUDIENCE see the move of Rhyner to 97.1? He is coming out of retirement to work for a radio station called "THE FREAK"? I've looked at his social media accounts, and there is a VERY LOW amount of response or interaction on them. Will the audience really care if he comes back? I understand his background, relevancy, and success - don't get me wrong. But I think those questions are worth asking. There is a BIG chance this gamble is going to lose, both ratings-wise and monetarily.

Every new enterprise is a gamble. In fact, using the word "gamble" the best marketer in the world, P&G, introduces new products often and regularly. About half fail in the first two years and are retired... despite positive market research, test marketing, sampling and all kinds of stuff P&G has learned in their century or so of marketing.

We'll see though, won't we? We can revisit this thread in one year and see who was right and who was wrong.

Based on P&G's example, you have about a 50-50 chance of being right. But this is still a viable alternative and a good gamble in an effort to get away from an aging all-white format in a market that ain't very white any more.

 

[davideduardo]

I get it. WE GET IT. You know everything.

Just presenting the facts, which you seem to ignore when they contradict your defense of a format and type of music that is of interest to fewer and fewer people in that market every year.

 

[Rudy Fitzneris]

AGAIN . . . we geeeetttttttttttttttt it. You know everything.

We got it.

 

[LibertyNT]

Hey its not like David has decades of experience in radio in multiple continents or anything. I'm not personally thrilled by the new direction they are going but such is life.

Maybe The Eagle isn't gone forever, they might put it on an HD2.

 

[b-turner]

Okay Rudy. We're getting tired of it. You will hate anything but what you want and the rest of the world is wrong if it doesn't agree with you. Buy a station and do it your way. You pay the bills. You make the choices.

 

[CTListener]

I grew up with rock. I loved it in the '60s, '70s and '80s. But it's been obvious to me since the '90s that young Americans of all races and ethnicities are increasingly going rhythmic. I don't fully understand hip-hop and its appeal, but I'm not supposed to -- it's the voice of a generation twice removed from mine, which is an eternity when it comes to trends in popular music. (I also don't fully understand why there's so little interest in non-rhythmic genres like rock among African Americans when whites have been eager consumers of rhythmic music made by African Americans for decades. Maybe it's an oppressor/oppressed thing; that's for the sociologists to debate.) The militant denial of reality by rock partisans alternately frustrates and amuses me.

 

[Least]

Others said it better, so I'll summarize. Looking at ratings is only a small part of the equation. Look at how much the station makes.

 

[TheBigA]

For giggles, let's look at the top 10 markets and see if any of them have a 3rd Sports station, and if they do, how well they're doing.

Where is active rock or alternative rock in any of those Top 5 markets?

Will it be an uphill climb for a 3rd sports station? Yes. Nobody said it was easy. But status quo isn't good either.

 

[JeremyAndrews]

Sports can have a 0.1 in the 6+ and survive. In fact, iHeart actually promoted a Sports station that was getting a 0.1 to FM. Now they get at or around a 1 share (at least for now) It's about the billing. Not the numbers. Lots of that Sports marketing money. No problem getting certain advertisers even without ratings. These advertisers all have Sports radio in common. You'll hear their ads on the other low rated Sports stations as well.

As far as cost, in some cases the hosts on these stations will literally do their show as a side gig for whatever else they do. They can go out and get their own advertisers to sponsor it. They are familiar with these advertisers from their other job. The advertiser wants to be associated with them, so they'll advertise and sponsor the show. Features, the studio, the phone line, everything is sponsored.

 

[Old Grey Coyote]

I grew up with rock. I loved it in the '60s, '70s and '80s. But it's been obvious to me since the '90s that young Americans of all races and ethnicities are increasingly going rhythmic. I don't fully understand hip-hop and its appeal, but I'm not supposed to -- it's the voice of a generation twice removed from mine, which is an eternity when it comes to trends in popular music. (I also don't fully understand why there's so little interest in non-rhythmic genres like rock among African Americans when whites have been eager consumers of rhythmic music made by African Americans for decades. Maybe it's an oppressor/oppressed thing; that's for the sociologists to debate.) The militant denial of reality by rock partisans alternately frustrates and amuses me.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that after Nirvana it changed from Sex, Drugs, Rebellion and Rock and Roll to Suicide, Depression, Confusion and Rock and Roll. I understand it has to do with the angst of young people, but it is hard to take after a while. Listen to any five songs on the current KEGL and tell me that doesn't make you depressed.

Just a thought.

 

[Rudy Fitzneris]

The point is, with easy, clear fixes, the EAGLE could be in the top 10. EASILY. I'll say it again, no one has an ear for MODERN DAY ACTIVE ROCK. No one is LISTENING to their audience.

As an obvious fan, a past employee there, and a fan of the music - yes, it's really disappointing to see something that was once so great, being absolutely sh*t on - yet again. There are some AMAZING bands out right now. Dorothy, Jelly Roll, Ice Nine Kills, Beartooth - and THEN you have Dad rock bands that have top 20 hits right now like Nickelback, Ozzy, Shinedown, Papa Roach, 5 Finger Death Punch, Metallica, Alter Bridge. They are massive, and when there are rock shows in Dallas, look how many people go to them. If you're actually IN this market, KNOW the music, the culture and the listeners, then you get it. If you aren't in the market, don't know the music or the culture, then besides making a case for another sports station based on numbers - well then you're just another bean pusher. And it's okay to be a bean pusher.

The last I checked, the title of this thread is YET ANOTHER TERRIBLE MOVE BY THE EAGLE.

Someone should make one that asks the question: Is there room, based on you living in this market, for another sports station?

 

[ksradiogeek]

The point is, with easy, clear fixes, the EAGLE could be in the top 10. EASILY. I'll say it again, no one has an ear for MODERN DAY ACTIVE ROCK. No one is LISTENING to their audience.

As an obvious fan, a past employee there, and a fan of the music - yes, it's really disappointing to see something that was once so great, being absolutely sh*t on - yet again. There are some AMAZING bands out right now. Dorothy, Jelly Roll, Ice Nine Kills, Beartooth - and THEN you have Dad rock bands that have top 20 hits right now like Nickelback, Ozzy, Shinedown, Papa Roach, 5 Finger Death Punch, Metallica, Alter Bridge. They are massive, and when there are rock shows in Dallas, look how many people go to them. If you're actually IN this market, KNOW the music, the culture and the listeners, then you get it. If you aren't in the market, don't know the music or the culture, then besides making a case for another sports station based on numbers - well then you're just another bean pusher. And it's okay to be a bean pusher.

The last I checked, the title of this thread is YET ANOTHER TERRIBLE MOVE BY THE EAGLE.

Someone should make one that asks the question: Is there room, based on you living in this market, for another sports station?

I get the music and culture - a lot of my class listened to it, and hard rock is part of the soundtrack of my life. Same with hip hop, classic soul, dance and a lot more.

I was like you - I worked in radio for awhile. I know the ins and outs of the industry quite well and am quite versed in how it works, especially in what listeners don’t see behind the scenes. I get your passion, as you’ve made very clear here.

But what I’ve learned during my time in radio, however, is that what you personally like and care for does not always translate to business sense. It doesn’t matter if there are sold out shows at the arenas in the Metroplex (which are not always a true measure of a success study for a format) - if the music/format as a whole is not testing/resonating well with the market as a whole, you have to do something different. It doesn’t matter how many times you tweak it to make it work - songs from only the last 5 years, dropping the talk and Mavs games, whatever you’re advocating for here. If it won’t work, it won’t work. The audience for a full-time format like this has been shrinking for sometime; ratings may have been good, but that likely came from Russ. Now, it appears the market can only handle one current rock-based station, active or alternative. Sorry, but c’est la vie.

 

[Marcos_C]

None of the top 5 markets has more than one sports station.

Did you mean more than two sports stations because if you did, then New York City has three sports stations. The third one is WEPN (1050 AM), which airs mainly national ESPN Radio programming. WEPN doesn't have any ratings, which is why it doesn't show up on the ratings table. The link below includes the schedules of both WEPN-FM and WEPN to demonstrate the differences in their schedules, with the FM side having a more local focus.

ESPN New York

I think that 97.1 The Freak will do better in Dallas than 1050 ESPN has done in New York because it will be on the FM dial and because it will air programming for a local audience. However, realistically, I think that it will have an uphill battle against the other two more established sports radio stations.

 

[Mikey Radio]

I know it's been mentioned in other threads on this site, but it would be wonderful if someone could invent a "programming simulator" where you could plug in all the details about a particular market and station..Frequency, wattage, demographics, coverage area, etc. and the proposed format or music choices and watch it play out in a simulation... Before making a potentially costly (in more ways than one) programming mistake or change.

Until then, we'll need to rely on market research, history and experience.

 

[b-turner]

Has everyone forgotten the 'man talk' programming added? It seems The Freak will be a Sports/Man Talk station that likely does not compete directly with KTCK and KRLD.

 

[CTListener]

Did you mean more than two sports stations because if you did, then New York City has three sports stations. The third one is WEPN (1050 AM), which airs mainly national ESPN Radio programming. WEPN doesn't have any ratings, which is why it doesn't show up on the ratings table.

Same in Boston. When WEEI's programming moved from 850 to 93.7 -- replacing a Jack knockoff format -- 850 was left with satellite-fed syndicated programming and national sports play-by-play. When it shows in the ratings, it's usually 0.1 or 0.2, but it doesn't lack for advertising and with no local talent its operating costs are minimal.

 

[Old Grey Coyote]

I already know that advertisers don't want me. I'm too old and my musical tastes are not shared by the majority.

But I have SiriusXM, Spotify, Pandora, my old iPod and CDs to listen to in the car if I don't like what the local stations serve up. Vinyl is still being used. The only thing I really need from local stations is traffic, local news and weather.

Market research won't find the next Russ Martin or the next Art Bell and so on.

The thing is that sports talk these days is more than just sports. It encompasses man talk, hot talk and the same sort of thing that the original Russ Martin Treehouse, and before that the Howard Stern Show was all about. And if you run out of other topics, then how 'bout those Cowboys. You can run sports talk and still be where the other two stations aren't. It could work.

On the music side, I am amazed to find kids in their teens and twenties actually like to listen to the old stuff. I am talking about the really old stuff like Zep and Floyd. They wear shirts from concerts that took place before their parents were born. Is there any market research on this, or is it just an anomaly.