Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's

[ericspin]

While PPM may not be the best way to determine ratings, it's definitely more accurate than a diary. I remember when my family was selected to fill out a Nielsen diary one time, I had to miss my favorite show, but I still wrote that I watched it because I didn't want to see it canceled (and I'm usually a rather honest person).

I can see why KODA, KHMX, and other "safe" music stations are doing best -- for me, those would be the only music stations my PPM would pick-up if I had one now. With so many people relying on their iPod or satellite radio these days, you'll find that the only stations that the PPM will pick up will be the ones playing at their office, retail store, etc. (By the way, I do still listen to AM talk radio, but for music, there isn't a station fitting my needs -- Adult Alternative)

 

[ChuckTiller]

David, I am looking forward to your report. I feel the PPM is still the best way to measure an audience at this time.

 

[silkpony]

David, I am looking forward to your report. I feel the PPM is still the best way to measure an audience at this time.

How do you feel about the Wave dropping off the map with PPM?

 

[petertrip]

I'd love to see the Wave disappear. CBS has too many good formats to waste this frequency on crap. I would take a Jack FM, rock, alt rock or Movin format from CBS any day.

 

[ChuckTiller]

Silkpony, you may or may not be aware that I left The Wave in January of this year. They are totally research driven. In November 2002, when I started at the Wave it was 3 instramentals and a vocal. Then it went to 2 instramentals and a vocal. Then, it became instramental, vocal, instramental, vocal and so on. Additionally, segueways disappeared. There was a jingle or liner between every song. No blend or mix. Songs that are considered new are sometimes 2 and 3 years old. I'm sure research has indicated that is the best way to go for KHJZ.

I still like The Wave, because there is music they play that I can't get anywhere else on my car radio. I have not seen their demo PPM. Therefore I do not know of a slide.

Petertrip, I think your opinion is subjective and not objective. If you feel the format is crap, you most likely will not like it if it was at the top. Your opinion would be the same and thats fine. You are entitled to your belief about what you like or don't like in a format.

Personally, I would open that library and allow the air personalities to blend the music. I know this is contrary to reseach. It's just my opinion and it is subjective.

 

[silkpony]

when I started at the Wave it was 3 instramentals and a vocal. Then it went to 2 instramentals and a vocal. Then, it became instramental, vocal, instramental, vocal and so on.

I have not seen their demo PPM. Therefore I do not know of a slide.

I think the 3-1 was better. Maybe David Eduardo knows the positioning of the Wave in their demo? I guess it's the 35-64?

 

[ChuckTiller]

When I was at The Wave, the demo was primarily 25-49. I'm certain that may be the same as it has been since it's inception in November 2002. I would settle for 2 to 1, instrumental to vocal. At least segue two songs together without a Wave liner or jingle. Inject more than one or two songs of a group or artist. Sometimes, you need to break out of the mold and go for it. Mix the research with gut feeling. Once an hour, let the air talent pick a song and blend it in a set.

One of the approaches that Ted Carson took with Smooth-FM 98.5/103.3 (KHYS/KJOJ-FM) was to allow the air personality a little room to entertain with their thoughts and the music. Yes, there was a computer log. However, we could take liberties if we could make it sound good. That station(s) failed because it was a rimshot and coupled with a myriad of technical problems, not because of the way it sounded. Additionally, we took a Top-40 style in that, we talked over the intros, utilizing the posts. In that fashion, the station had a very smooth continuous sound. It was a very good sounding radio station. The sound was seamless.

None of this is meant to be critical; this is just my opinion and nothing more. Maxine Todd is a great PD and was behind the scenes going to bat for me which allowed me to leave KILT and go across the hall to The Wave. I'm sure there were many who felt I did not fit in because I was known as a country music DJ. I have always considered myself a broadcaster. A good broadcaster can do just about any format. I'm sure I would be unacceptable for Hip-Hop. However, I would get a lot of laughs. But, they would be laughing at me. Can you hear it, "Whuts dat old white boy doing rap. Wassup wit dat?"

 

[InTIMadate]

Here's a real problem....

I'm a PPM family (up to 16 people!). I leave the damn PPM in the charger/reporter overnight. I wake up to the radio, shave, listen to my radio in my shower and have breakfast with the radio on. Just before I walk out the door, I grab the PPM out of the base and hook it on my belt around 7:45 AM. Radio just lost at least an hour of morning drive listening, every day, every week.

See an issue?

 

[ChuckTiller]

Call Arbitron and tell them. I understand that you have no faith in the system as you pointed out August the 2nd on the Atlanta board. No system is perfect. But it can be perfected and that will take time. You can claim its a failure, but that is premature. I still feel that it beats the diary system.

11 TOP 20 MARKETS / Atlanta / Re: Bob Neil harshly critiques PPMs on: August 02, 2007, 06:03:06 pm
I'm not a Bob Neil fan, but he's right on this.

People are leaving their PPM "beeper" on the charger when they get up, take a shower, have breakfast and walk the dog. They're not recording any radio ratings until they grab the ulgy black pager for the trip to work. Houston and Philly AM shows are getting killed. Agencies are using these so-called ratings to kick the snot out of rates. Sales weasels are dropping their pants to get the buy. It's getting very ugly.

The PPM is a failure.

Wait for the smart phone.

Radio Leaders..... Please wake up and smell the dog manure!

 

[InTIMadate]

Right Chuck,

I'm sure that they'll put Bob Neil, Tom Taylor, Inside Radio and all the Houston and Philly market managers on hold to discuss my concerns. It's not about radio. They went and sold the whole bill of goods to agencies and used them to blackmail radio to sign up. Now the agencies will use the dramatic drop in TSL to get cheaper rates.

As a career broadcaster, it sickens me that so many talented people have and are losing their jobs due to a horribly flawed system while Pierre and company continues to watch their stock dramatically rise. They've had five years of testing. Yet, their own quality control systems failed to catch the fact that "There was a data processing error that impacted the sample report and weekly cume estimates in HOUSTON PPM Weekly report for JULY 26th through AUGUST 1st, 2007. The file used to process the weekly cume estimates (the unified weekly sample) was incompletely loaded from the data warehouse to the production system. It appears that exposure records for almost 200 panelists who were in-tab 6 of 7 days were not included in that file transfer. This is why the average (unified) weekly in-tab appears to be abnormally low."

Here's the facts: There are 2,078 installs in HOUSTON, and in AUGUST Week 1, there were only 683 intab for persons 6+, and for persons 12+ there were 620 intab. By comparison in JULY Week 4, there were 910 intab for persons 6+, and for persons 12+ there were 811 intab. Yet, they claim that it didn't effect results.


It smells. It's a monopoly. It will only get better when a true competitor appears.

 

[silkpony]

When I was at The Wave, the demo was primarily 25-49. I'm certain that may be the same as it has been since it's inception in November 2002.

That demo was covered by David Eduardo's earlier post on this thread. He posted the following in order of position (1st - 15th).

18-49: KTBZ, KLTN, KRBE, KBXX, KHMX, KODA, KMJQ, KKRW, KOVE, KLOL, KKBQ, KILT, KHPT, KHTC, KTJM.
25-54: KKRW, KTBZ, KLTN, KODA, KMJQ, KHMX, KRBE, KOVE, KHPT, KKBQ, KHTC, KBXX, KILT, KSBJ, KLOL

The Wave seems to have completely vanished with PPM.

I would settle for 2 to 1, instrumental to vocal. At least segue two songs together without a Wave liner or jingle. Inject more than one or two songs of a group or artist. Sometimes, you need to break out of the mold and go for it. Mix the research with gut feeling. Once an hour, let the air talent pick a song and blend it in a set.

I like that idea!

 

[davideduardo]

Here's a real problem....

I'm a PPM family (up to 16 people!). I leave the damn PPM in the charger/reporter overnight. I wake up to the radio, shave, listen to my radio in my shower and have breakfast with the radio on. Just before I walk out the door, I grab the PPM out of the base and hook it on my belt around 7:45 AM. Radio just lost at least an hour of morning drive listening, every day, every week.

See an issue?

No, I do not. The PPM detects while it is docked, too. An edit rule discards data one hour after docking, and accepts data for one hour prior to undocking.

 

[davideduardo]

People are leaving their PPM "beeper" on the charger when they get up, take a shower, have breakfast and walk the dog. They're not recording any radio ratings until they grab the ulgy black pager for the trip to work. Houston and Philly AM shows are getting killed. .

Chuck, the PPM detects while docked; an edit rule takes out only listening that is considered to happen if the radio is left on all night while sleeping. The meter does not care if it is undocked as far as detection is concerned.

The PPM is a failure.

Not really. It is having an undesirable set of problems such as the data processing error this Monday, and the fact that Arbitron is removing low-compliance (1 to 3 days a week) participant families and they have not gotten new panelists as fast as they need. That is all part of the introduction phase of a new product.

Wait for the smart phone.

After the introduction of PM 30, the new PPM that is smaller and has longer battery life, the next generation already in development will have the ability to also be embedded in phones and other devices. Arbitron also has a device to identify in car listening vs. away from home listening that is not in the car.

 

[ChuckTiller]

David, that was not a quote by me. I was quoting what InTIMadate posted on the Atlanta board on August 2nd. Please reread that. Thats why I put his post in italics. In fact, you will notice in a previous post that I said to ask you about the PPM. You know more about this than anyone on this board, including me.

InTIMidate does not like the PPM and feels it is a monopoly as discussed in his post previous to yours.

Again, his words, not mine. I will agree with him about having a competitor.

 

[Radio girl]

I have noticed that there has been no comments about Eastlan. I am only slightly familiar with them, but I know that they consider themselves "the alternative". Any feelings about their product?

 

[davideduardo]

David, that was not a quote by me. I was quoting what InTIMadate posted on the Atlanta board on August 2nd. Please reread that. Thats why I put his post in italics. In fact, you will notice in a previous post that I said to ask you about the PPM. You know more about this than anyone on this board, including me.

I am very sorry, Chuck. I should have noticed that, and didn't. I did think it was an unusual post for you, thoug! ;D

InTIMidate does not like the PPM and feels it is a monopoly as discussed in his post previous to yours.

Unfortunately, he does not quite have all his facts straight. Hopefully, he can spend some time on the Arbitron website and get up tpo speed on the system.

Again, his words, not mine. I will agree with him about having a competitor.

For good or bad, that is unlikely. Intimidate is correct in that Arbitron has sold the idea to agencies, and stations are subject to what agency buyers want. This is also how Arbitron eventually won over Hooper and Pulse in the 70's.

So many have tried to do ratings, including the two I mentioned. Birch, Burke, Mediastat / Mediatrend, Strategic, Audits & Suverys and others have tried, but never got stations to pay for two services, or agencies to look at more than one data source. The best path is to work with, as oppposed to against, Arbitron to serve advertisers and stations.

 

[InTIMadate]

So, statistically you two are comfortable with less than 700 people representing the 5.5 million Houstonians until Arbitron can fix their sample problems? If Arbitron felt that the minimum sample for the diary based research was between (guessing here) 3,000 and 5,000 individuals 12+, how can they give agencies these numbers 6+ as accurate?

I'm no math major, but it sounds impossible for 700 people to accurately reflect such a diverse population for usage of a product with over 30 variations all available 24/7. If this was still a test market product then I would have no issues with them finding and fixing problems. They should have had sample issues under control before eliminating the comparison diary product in Houston and implementing an agressive roll-out schedule nationwide.

In the end, I agree with you that an electronic measurement system will be able to closer track actual listening than the diary system. Radio needs it to compete with other media. My gripe is letting Arbitron get away with misrepresenting the current information as fact until radio can organize and require them to establish better standards and bigger sample. Heads and formats are starting to roll based on this junk research and soon we'll end up with less talent and less leadership than today.


This is a critical time for our industry. I respect Bob Neil for being a thorn in their side. I hope others will step up soon.

 

[ChuckTiller]

InTIMadate, I am not comfortable with that sample size. I wasn't comfortable with the previous sample size for the diary method either. Anybody who knows me in this city will tell you that I have taken that stand for well over 30 years. Years ago, when I was told the sample size was 1500, I was astounded. How could 1500 represent a city of our size. I DO understand what you are talking about. I did not like to see Pulse or Birch go away, but the ad agencies and stations would buy only one source as David Eduardo has suggested.

 

[davideduardo]

So, statistically you two are comfortable with less than 700 people representing the 5.5 million Houstonians until Arbitron can fix their sample problems? If Arbitron felt that the minimum sample for the diary based research was between (guessing here) 3,000 and 5,000 individuals 12+, how can they give agencies these numbers 6+ as accurate?

That is daily in-Tab. It expands dramatically with weekly and montly numbers, up to about 1900 for the montly in-tab panelist participation. And that will grow as Arbitron enhances compliance; the July numbers were affected by Arbitron becoming stricter in panel performance and the natural summer issues, like 10% on vacation at any time.

The 700 a day number is considerably higher than the weekly diary count, so the data is far more stable. It is statistically more reliable because it is a stratified panel, not luck of the draw diary keepers.

In the end, I agree with you that an electronic measurement system will be able to closer track actual listening than the diary system. Radio needs it to compete with other media. My gripe is letting Arbitron get away with misrepresenting the current information as fact until radio can organize and require them to establish better standards and bigger sample. Heads and formats are starting to roll based on this junk research and soon we'll end up with less talent and less leadership than today.

200 group and major market progammers, researchers and consutants at the Arbitron PPM Fly In today disagree with you.

 

[InTIMadate]

From today's reports, it doesn't sound like 200 agrees with you:

"There’ve been some embarrassing monthly shortfalls this year: January in Houston was off 193 people, 64 in February 64, then 193 in July. Philadelphia, using the new “Demographic Delivery Index” tool, was at an overall 88 for July. But persons 18-34 indexed at a 55 – and that’s what some experts have been have jumping up and down about" - Tom Taylor.

"CEO Steve Morris acknowledges 'what’s been raised by the press' as being valid, about the screwup with the July 26-August 1 weekly cume report."

A PPM client told ALL ACCESS, "There are 2 all time lows in the newly released data. Hispanics were down 10% from the last week in JULY. Hispanics 6+ and 12+ dropped 10% week to week in the re-released HOUSTON data -- from 250 to 225 In-Tab 12+ and 302 to 270 to the lowest weekly In-TAB in Houston PPM history 12+, and HOUSTON was the ARBITRON Hispanic test market. It was also a low for males 18-24, with 57 daily In-Tab versus 34 Weekly In-Tab, which translates to a ratio of 59.6% in a demo they said they were working on improving."


The issue is totally different than diary when weekly cume participation changed every week. As you know, with the PPM, the participant's usage may be tracked for years.

Drink the cool-aid if you wish.