Songs You Remember And Like But Never Get Played

[oldies76]

You stated KWVE competed with other Christian Contemporary stations in the LA Basin. In fact, the station was directional away from Los Angeles and has no usable signal anywhere in LA County. It does not even cover northern Orange County well. It's market is southern Orange County and the southwestern section of Riverside County.

KYSR, I believe was one competitor and possibly one other inland. I was almost certain it was the LA basin. Supposedly the signal could be heard in the Coachella Valley at one time.

As PT board ops / talent, we were not told much, especially the ones who worked off-business hours, such as myself.

 

[TheBigA]

Being employed as a PT board op mainly on weekend afternoons and one or two other graveyard shifts a week (12midnight-6am) for seven years, I suppose very little was relayed to us at the time. It was fun though.

One would think that you might want to learn more about the decision-making processes that are involved with radio. These days, it's very easy to create myths and opinions about the business that aren't true. The professionals on these boards have a lot of experience, and you'd do very well to learn rather than lecture. If you actually come up with useful information, I'm always interested to read it. But so far...not so much.

 

[davideduardo]

KYSR, I believe was one competitor and possibly one other inland. I was almost certain it was the LA basin. Supposedly the signal could be heard in the Coachella Valley at one time.

There is a 5 to 10 thousand foot high mountain range in the way of the Coachella Valley, with Mt San Jacinto, the highest, effectively blocking almost all of the valley from anything to the West. The population in the Palm Springs MSA is almost all below 500 ft AMSL, and much of it at about 0 ft AMSL.

The LA Basin is the flat-ish plain with low hills and ridges at the foot of Mt Wilson extending out to the ocean. To the north and east are the Santa Monica and San Gabriel Mountains and to the south the Santa Ana Mountains and the Palos Verdes hills. Southern Orange County is not even in the LA Basin

As PT board ops / talent, we were not told much, especially the ones who worked off-business hours, such as myself.

Neither was I, as I worked evenings and weekends. But I asked, subscribed to Sponsor, Broadcasting, Television/Radio Age and US Radio and even SRDS and took summer radio and journalism classes while still in High School. I listened to out of market stations whenever I could and analyzed the differences. I went to every station's remotes and concerts, too. Since I did not pay tuition to work at the stations, I figured I had no right to be given an education there and the rest was up to me. After four years of that, I got an apprenticeship at a cluster of 5 stations and was able to apply what I had read to real situations that went beyond just running the board...

 

[davideduardo]

With all the talk in this thread about "lost hits" and deep cuts and such, I thought it would be fun for both sides of this ongoing food fight to see a booklet commemorating the 25th Anniversary of the Gavin Report. Towards the end of the report there is a listing of every song that hit #1 on the Gavin Top 40 chart during the first 25 years of publication, going back to 1957.

Since the Gavin chart was based on airplay and not sales or distribution manipulations, it gives a distinct view of what the hits really were.

There are also some sample pages of old Gavin Reports; because the edition was printed in blue ink and is a tough read even in the original, they are less clear than I'd like but still interesting.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Gavin-Report-Page-Range-Guide.htm and click on the blue cover graphic in the left-hand column.

 

[oldies76]

With all the talk in this thread about "lost hits" and deep cuts and such, I thought it would be fun for both sides of this ongoing food fight to see a booklet commemorating the 25th Anniversary of the Gavin Report. Towards the end of the report there is a listing of every song that hit #1 on the Gavin Top 40 chart during the first 25 years of publication, going back to 1957.

Since the Gavin chart was based on airplay and not sales or distribution manipulations, it gives a distinct view of what the hits really were.

There are also some sample pages of old Gavin Reports; because the edition was printed in blue ink and is a tough read even in the original, they are less clear than I'd like but still interesting.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Gavin-Report-Page-Range-Guide.htm and click on the blue cover graphic in the left-hand column.

Thanks so much. This information is very useful. And the #1's list towards the end, very interesting!! And based on airplay, many of those hits resemble, to an extent, the ones KRTH played in their special......so long ago.

Well, I think the food fight has dwindled now. I'll still enjoy the "lost hits" though.

 

[oldies76]

If you actually come up with useful information, I'm always interested to read it. But so far...not so much.

I'm over it. No worries.

 

[oldies76]

With all the talk in this thread about "lost hits" and deep cuts and such, I thought it would be fun for both sides of this ongoing food fight to see a booklet commemorating the 25th Anniversary of the Gavin Report. Towards the end of the report there is a listing of every song that hit #1 on the Gavin Top 40 chart during the first 25 years of publication, going back to 1957.

Nice to see that 'Waiting For a Girl Like You" made #1 on this chart and not "Physical" in 1981.

These #1 songs are base on airplay. So, what criteria goes into these #1 songs, say vs. Billboard or the Boss 30 on KHJ, for example.

Also there is a noticeable gap from November 1957 to May 1958.

 

[davideduardo]

Nice to see that 'Waiting For a Girl Like You" made #1 on this chart and not "Physical" in 1981.

There are plenty of songs that sat between 2 and 5 for many weeks, and were likely the bigger hits... but the "surge" songs would beat them.

These #1 songs are base on airplay. So, what criteria goes into these #1 songs, say vs. Billboard or the Boss 30 on KHJ, for example.

Billboard, at the time, tracked sales only. Radio stations looked at sales, looked at Gavin (and the other "tip sheets") and looked at their own playlist and made the calls based on programming criteria. It's important to remember that sales was not the biggest part of radio decision making because radio programmers knew how "influenced" the lists were. But more than that, they knew that only a tiny percentage of listeners ever bought any of the records they played, so sales was just one indicator out of many.

Also there is a noticeable gap from November 1957 to May 1958.

Probably they were unable to find the very early editions. I believe that no copies have survived.

 

[Tibbs4]

David - should I mention that not only did you READ everything that has ever been written about radio, you also did some amazingly tedious work on your incredible website that is full of probably 1,000,000 pages of old broadcasting news, info, publications, trades, etc. It is indeed still a wonderful source for me. 26,000+ posts on here alone. Shows you never sleep. BigA, while you stay a little more undercover, you also study radio like no one else. I don't have the time to harass on here like I did a few years ago, but I appreciate EVERYONE on here! It's a family. For me, it is kind of neat to see the evolution of radio, while, it it's own way, radio stays the same, while the world revolves around it. Or does the world revolve around the radio, still? Having been all over the industry from overnights in high school to mornings in sub 200 markets, to being on air and in mgmt in a handful of the top 12 markets and owning a few stations over the years, one thing is for sure. Tomorrow is another interesting day in radio and no two minutes are ever alike. Could be so much more morbid! Oh, and I have managed to listen to seven hours of Sirius/XM. I don't get it. Someone explain the allure of not recognizing half the damn songs??? Hahaha! Carry on!

 

[davideduardo]

David - should I mention that not only did you READ everything that has ever been written about radio, you also did some amazingly tedious work on your incredible website that is full of probably 1,000,000 pages of old broadcasting news, info, publications, trades, etc. It is indeed still a wonderful source for me.

Thanks! In fact, there are now nearly 2 million pages and 300G of data on the site. Any if you come across any old stuff that should be on the site, let me know!

Oh, and I have managed to listen to seven hours of Sirius/XM. I don't get it. Someone explain the allure of not recognizing half the damn songs??? Hahaha! Carry on!

I am constantly annoyed by the music channels. Despite growing into radio with Alan Freed and Mad Daddy, the 50's channel has infinitely too many unfamiliar songs. The 60's offering has dreadful flow, and lots of secondary WTF cuts... as does the 70's. But my main annoyance is that they constantly change the blend... it is pop one week, then leans rock. And the horizontal and vertical rotations are just not right for such deep libraries. I keep my subscriptions mostly for the talk channels, particularly the Bebe, and the country channels which are better done. But the oldies / classic hits offerings bite.

 

[Avid Listener]

There is a 5 to 10 thousand foot high mountain range in the way of the Coachella Valley, with Mt San Jacinto, the highest, effectively blocking almost all of the valley from anything to the West. The population in the Palm Springs MSA is almost all below 500 ft AMSL, and much of it at about 0 ft AMSL.

The LA Basin is the flat-ish plain with low hills and ridges at the foot of Mt Wilson extending out to the ocean. To the north and east are the Santa Monica and San Gabriel Mountains and to the south the Santa Ana Mountains and the Palos Verdes hills. Southern Orange County is not even in the LA Basin

Why is it that you can recognize the importance of technical hurdles when such things support your position, but insist that what made FM take over from AM was only attributable to the genius programmers who introduced tight playlists, while ignoring the fact of increased sales of FM receivers, especially in automobiles?

As much as you sneer at free-form, "underground" FM radio, that's the format that did for FM radio set sales what "Uncle Miltie" did for the sales of television sets.

 

[davideduardo]

Why is it that you can recognize the importance of technical hurdles when such things support your position, but insist that what made FM take over from AM was only attributable to the genius programmers who introduced tight playlists, while ignoring the fact of increased sales of FM receivers, especially in automobiles?

Actually, all your facts are wrong.

FM, after languishing for over two decades, was given a big shove by the FCC mandate, effective in January of 1967, to end nearly all simulcasts of fulltime AM stations in metro areas. The result was the development of formats that did not compete with the sister AM station's cash flow... sophisticated Beautiful Music models, progressive rock, oldies, etc. The first gains in FM listening came mostly from at home and at work listening, not cars.

At that time, in-car listening was less than 30% of the total, and it came later... towards the middle of the 70's... when consumers started demanding FM in vehicles, too.

When "AM formats" like Top 40 appeared on FM, they had the same kind of playlists that the AM stations did. But in most markets, the FM Top 40 sounded better and had much better coverage, they tended to take over that segment of the audience. Example: WPGC in DC... compare the signal to that of Top 40 leader WEAM.

Tight playlists were originated in 1952 at KOWH, an AM daytimer. 40 songs, over and over. #1 in one book. Nothing changed when Top 40 migrated to FM.

In fact, consumers bought FM receivers to listen to all the new programming options, with better signals and sound, that AM did not make available. So yes, it was mostly the programming coupled with the fact that 90% of larger market AM facilities had seen their metro outgrow them thanks to the urban sprawl of the 50's and 60's post-War boom.

As much as you sneer at free-form, "underground" FM radio, that's the format that did for FM radio set sales what "Uncle Miltie" did for the sales of television sets.

Free form or progressive radio was nowhere near the force in moving audiences to FM that Beautiful Music, Top 40 and, by 1972-73, AOR was. Those, plus the development of "chicken rock" (now called AC) and oldies and even ethnic and country FMs took FM to a majority position by 1977 when there were still plenty of cars where FM was an extra cost option.

 

[TheBigA]

As much as you sneer at free-form, "underground" FM radio, that's the format that did for FM radio set sales what "Uncle Miltie" did for the sales of television sets.

If it did so much for the sale of FM radios, why didn't that also translate to the sale of underground music?

 

[Avid Listener]

If it did so much for the sale of FM radios, why didn't that also translate to the sale of underground music?

Check the sales figures for rock albums in the late 60's/early 70's. The short, cut-down version of "Light My Fire" on AM was the "hit". The uncut album version was on underground radio, and was therefore "underground" music. All of Led Zeppelin's early albums were "underground" music.

 

[TheBigA]

Check the sales figures for rock albums in the late 60's/early 70's. The short, cut-down version of "Light My Fire" on AM was the "hit". The uncut album version was on underground radio, and was therefore "underground" music. All of Led Zeppelin's early albums were "underground" music.

Oh come on. Give me the sales figures for artists that were ONLY played on "underground radio." Like Canned Heat or Ten Years After. Artists who got no airplay anywhere else.

Even with a hit single (and most of The Doors albums had at least one AM hit), their albums only went Gold. Same with Led Zepplin. They didn't begin to go Platinum until 1976, long after the underground rock days were done. You can check the database for Gold & Platinum records at riaa.org.

The fact is that underground radio WAS underground. It appealed to small audiences, was really only available in a few dozen college towns, and was mostly gone by 1973. Even the grandfather of progressive rock radio, Big Daddy Tom Donohue in San Francisco, gave in to market pressures and established playlists when he was running KSAN. So the idea that underground radio was as responsible for FM radio sales as Milton Berle was for TV sales is factually incorrect.

 

[firepoint525]

And since they have little competition, it is all the more surprising that they have such a low cume share. Were they well programmed, it would be expected for them to reach a larger portion of the total population, not less, because there are fewer local choices.
The station's self-identification in its Nielsen SIP is "classic hits".
They may use it on the air, but not for sales. "Oldies" is not negative to listeners; it is toxic when seen by media buyers and planners who dismiss such a station as being "out of demo" just based on the format.
There are plenty of industry format names that are not used on the air. But for sales, the terms are very clear ways of identifying who you are and who you target.

You went through the demographic of Jackson earlier in this thread, and I believe you mentioned a high "urban" population. They have a station there with the call letters WYJJ, playing (I believe) the old-school stuff from the '70s. What is embarrassing about this station is their nickname "JJ97." To me, it conjures up images of Jimmie Walker on Good Times. Not sure why they would want to go in that direction. (A thread on the Tennessee board about them a year or so ago, but some of the information about that station may have changed since then.) To me, a simple "J-97" would make more sense.

Back to Kool 103, they also played a couple of Elvis songs that I have not heard in a while, like "American Trilogy" and "If I Can Dream." It is cool to localize the playlist like that a little bit in Elvis' own backyard, but yeah, I realize, he died nearly 40 years ago, and no one under 60 remembers him now. Tell that to the folks who flood the candlelight vigil at Graceland every year. It is great for them, but I always make sure to avoid Memphis during the second week of August, aka "Elvis Week."

 

[firepoint525]

Firepoint, my friend, I heard Jet 100.7 driving in through Niceville/Crestview FL. I heard "Jet Airliner" and yes, dead air and that was about it. Will listen today. The FL Panhandle is notorious for having a station on EVERY frequency. They may be distant, but they are there. We are at Seaside, so we are right in the middle of the Mobile/Pensacola, Destin/Fort Walton Beach, Dothan and Panama City markets with a little hint of Tallahassee. The retirement down here idea is a solid one! Gotta pick your spot carefully. Spring Break at PCB is a good example of where NOT to go! .

We are definitely looking forward to going to the Pensacola/Mobile area in May. Not retiring there just yet, but with all these "polar vortexes" we had this winter (mitigated only by our own "snow dome" here), we are definitely looking for "somewhere greener, somewhere warmer" as JoDee Messina sang. And we will always be Tennesseans at heart. I don't see that changing. (I have only been to PCB in the summer. I enjoyed it, but yeah, very touristy.)

As for "Jet Airliner," I have actually produced a sanitized version that has the instrumentalized extra first verse (following "Threshold"), but borrows the "funky kicks" from the single version. I would love to email it to Hippie and have them play it (instead of their version which has the "funky *tish* going down in the city"), but it is too big of a file, so I can't send it through email.

 

[firepoint525]

Excuse me A, small market radio (the kind that Firepoint worked at) is just as radio as KRTH 101. Whether a board op, production assitant or a PD, it's all radio. Yes, bigger stations require more from a business and financial standpoint, but working at a smaller one is just as fun or even better. At least you're not under the gun, like a K-Earth or CBS-FM. It's still broadcasting though.
So yes, Firepoint and myself have worked in radio. Maybe not in the grand scale, but it's still radio. And who cares if we were not #1....If we were top 10 or 15, that's be nice too. So, to say that Fire was not in radio, is just wrong. We're all on the same team, if you think about it.

Thanks for the compliments. Where I worked was actually "microscopic market radio." You would have to have had a magnifying glass to see it. My only real experience with oldies radio was on our automated FM station, so I only voice-tracked it. No real control over what played. It was pretty cool during the week, with a reel each of '50s, '60s, '70s, and '80s music, but highly repetitive on the weekends, with all four decks having reels of '50s (and mostly pre-Beatles '60s) on them. So we were playing only the really old music on the "solid gold weekends," a concept which even then was going the way of the wind. And this station skewed very old, especially for a college town. I still remember my sister (RIP) ridiculing us for playing "going to the chapel" (as she called it) so much on the weekends. Even for the early '90s, this playlist (particularly over the weekends) skewed very old. Shortly after I left this station, they modernized their sound somewhat, but I am still wondering if this was voluntary, or if their supplier discontinued manufacturing those old reel-to-reel tapes.

As for what I did in radio, after I moved here to Nashville, I did overnights for 10 years, where I basically did everything: board op/programmer (programming five stations!), janitor, secretary/receptionist, engineer, voice-over producer, garbageman, weed-cutter, tree-trimmer, and probably a few other things that I have long since forgotten. And yes, I occasionally had to be the decision-maker regarding what went over the air when certain programs did not arrive in time to air.

 

[firepoint525]

If you've ever EATEN in a restaurant, you should be able to tell good food from swill.
If only people who have worked in radio should comment on radio's product output, then only musicians who have actually recorded a hit record should comment on whether or not a song is a hit.

I am reminded of the old email that went around a few years ago, about wanting to be a kid again. One of the points on that email was about wanting to be a kid again was being able to consider McDonald's a five-star restaurant. There might be some advantages to being a kid again, but I have no desire to consider McDonald's a five-star restaurant, not that I ever did.

Yeah, I liked McDonald's as a kid (and OCCASIONALLY still do), but I have no desire to go there every day. It is great for kids (obviously) and for their grandparents, who go there for the senior discounts on coffee. And I see in the news that McDonald's is doing yet ANOTHER menu tweak. Not sure what it is this time.

 

[oldies76]

As for what I did in radio, after I moved here to Nashville, I did overnights for 10 years, where I basically did everything: board op/programmer (programming five stations!), janitor, secretary/receptionist, engineer, voice-over producer, garbageman, weed-cutter, tree-trimmer, and probably a few other things that I have long since forgotten. And yes, I occasionally had to be the decision-maker regarding what went over the air when certain programs did not arrive in time to air.

A least you had the programming element to your stint. We never really had that chance. We actually had a PD, but since it was Contemporary Christian music, we could pretty much play what we wanted, as long as it wasn't repeated in a six hour shift and it wasn't your own favorites that you played during every shift. In other words, we just chose music at random and made it sound good. And since we had countless praise music by the Maranatha Singers and other church groups, it seemed we were playing them the most. Did our legals, promo jingles and spots, even traffic and wx live every so often and 1/2 hour church sermons that were on reel to reel tapes. The music was on broadcast carts, then some CD's. It was fun.

My only goof that I can remember, is that one day, I accidently left one of the R2R machines on 15ips, when it should have been set on 7.5ips. As you could imagine, it didn't sound great for about 5 seconds!!