• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Everybody But Radio Pays

Talk radio isn't the reason that music labels, artists and music radio can't work out a deal. I know you guys like to blame Rush and Hannity for all the world's ills, but they really have nothing to do with copyright law.

Again, if you want to actually LEARN something instead of just blaming conservative talk radio for everything, Google "Everything is a Remix". It's not specific to music royalties, but it explains how the concept of intellectual property and our patent and copyright laws are in dire need of overhauling.

In honor of the current Full Moon, after reviewing the strange twists and turns of this thread, I have decided to go above and beyond the usual Rodeo Clown style of the GRC persona and do a "scorched earth" presentation on patent and copyright issues.

I'm deeply hurt that you would refer me to the video "Everything is a Remix" and suggest that it will stretch and exercise my understanding of the world.

As far back as I can remember we have had discussions in the home where I grew up about patents. My Dad lifted himself above the level of a share-cropper to owning his own farm by buying a set of tools in the Depression Era (the one back in the days of Mr Hoover and Mr Roosevelt) to work on tractors owned by older farmers who understood horses and harnesses, but not these new fangled tractor-things. He would years later explain to me that he selected those particular tools (the brand) because they had better patents. I have what is left of those tools and the little black toolbox that is older than I am in my garage today.

Henry Ford (of the Detroit Fords) and Harry Ferguson (of the British Fergusons) got together sometime in the late 1930s and decided if they would put the patents that each owned into a joint venture, they could change the history of the farm tractor. To this day if I go to an antique tractor show, I can look at various brands of tractors designed and built after the Ford-Ferguson era and point out the features that they obviously were paying royalties to either Mr. Ford's company or Mr. Ferguson's company. Because of some health issues my Dad bought a 1943 model Ford Ferguson that he was not sure "would farm" but at least he could use it like someone would use one of those rugged versions of a golf cart to get around his farm to supervise. He found out the little thing actually could farm and by 1950 he added a brand new Ferguson to the fleet. (Ford and Ferguson had gone their separate ways by then.) He chose the Ferguson rather than the Ford because Ferguson had better patents. I grew up in a family that worried about buying products with the right patent.

Somewhere around 1950 my Dad had gone to the local machine shop/blacksmith shop and had them craft an accessory to attach to one of Mr. Ferguson's implements that hung off the back of the tractor when ready to do battle with the soil. I had this wack-a-doodle country school superintendent who was tutoring me and teaching me mechanical drawing (drafting we would say later) in Junior High. I gave it my best effort and created a crude drawing of the accessory my Dad had dreamed up and he drove 250 miles through the sage brush, cactus and mesquite to meet with a patent attorney to see if his device was patentable. (After all, it was an era many many people became rich because they patented something!) He never told me what the attorney said, but there was no patent, and no further talk about the device... which was still attached to the disk harrow when we put it in the estate auction in 1997.

The most interesting, colorful and successful broadcaster I ever worked for was a bit of an absentee owner the day I was hired. A few weeks later the G.M. who hired me was gone and the owner once again became the day-to-day working manager. He had taken a leave of absence to sell a patent which he had purchased earlier. He told me some of the details of taking the product idea and turning it into a marketable product and then going on the road until he found a monster national corporation capable of taking the invention he owned and selling it BIG TIME! (He half way wore out a Piper Commanche travelling the nation to get the sale made.) He helped me understand patents.

In my last full-time job I had some administrative functions in a little company that jumped into this newly developing industry that was building "stuff" to mount on top of cell phone towers. We had a 'skunk works' in the back with a creative genius or two and we had product that was totally different than the ho-hum traditional cell phone transmitting antennas that looked like an old TV receiving antenna we used to have on our houses that had gone through a shredder we run yard waste through. And while I was there, they added a Patent Attorney in house to get their filings currected and in order. He pointed out to me one day a big mistake they made in a patent before he got there. They not only described the product but as a final point in the patent indicated how much gain it would produce. A competitor started making a look-alike product and we sued. We lost. There was no infringement. yes their product was a knock-off of ours, but when tested on the testing range, it did not have the amount of output that our product had, and that our patent proclaimed. He had fun training our sales people how to go out and badmouth the product with dignity. "Yes, Mr. Customer. They had a product similar to ours. In fact it was so much like ours we sued them and we lost. Their product performed so poorly, the judge said it did violate the patent specifications.

Over several cups of coffee I got the Patent Attorney to analyze a plan I had. At the time I was attempting to buy a small market radio stration and I had a few programming ideas that I thought were unique at the time, and I wanted to know if there was a way that I could register my programming so it would be protected from being duplicated by competitors. He introduced me to the concept of registering a Business Process. But then he gave me the "Dutch Uncle Tough Talk Speech": A patent is only valueable if you have the resources to pay to defend your invention. And he laid out how expensive it can be to go to court and try to win a case against someone who plans to violate your patent or copyright and has much deeper pockets than you do!

Now, let me get this out of my system: "I'm damned annoyed that you would speak to me like I was nine years old and that I should understand that you are the Talk Radio guy who actually works in radio... and that if I need to know something, I should listen to you!" And that the little YouTube "Everything is a Remix" would make me so much smarter and wiser than I was when I got up this morning.

In looking up your "Everything is a Remix" thingy, I also looked up current congressional activity on maybe doing something about Patent Trolls. As of last month it was hung up in the Senate. Seems as though enough of the Republican Senators on the committee were refusing to go along because all of the paperwork that would be required to enforce a no-trolling concept was going to be an inconvenience to big corporations. (You know, the Samsungs and Apples and Sonys of the world that purposely poach each others designs, knowing that when the case works through the courts 10 to `15 years later they will simply each forgive the other for also mutually infringing on their patents and we will settle out of court for a token amount. In the meantime, our staff lawyers in the patent department will continue to harass and crush the little guys we think are violating our patents, or getting too close for comfort. (The record shows SOME prominent Republican Senators along with almost enough Democratic Senators were ready to pass the bill, but it was the renegade Republicans that were holding up the bill. Those guys are YOUR friends. You need to be talking to THEM... not us.)

We have a broken patent and copyright scheme as the law of the land. But we have no stomach to really fix it. We try to tell people a "no-patent trolling" law will make everything well. It ain't that simple!

We have a broken system of medical finance in this country. But we have no stomach to really fix it. We try to tell people to just let the market place fix it and the market will make everything well. It ain't that simple!

I don't think Talk Radio has done it's job in bringing the public up to speed on how we can best deal with the patent issues, and I don't think Talk Radio has done it's job in bringing the public up to speed on what ails our medical system and providing rational explanations of how we can fix it.

Maybe next month to observe the Full Moon, I could fill you in on my involvement and experience in the delivery and finance of medical care. On that one I will go out of my way to not speak to you as though you are nine years old.
 
I don't think that's talk radio's job.

That is a valid point in the overall debate that takes place in this forum space.

Does any part of radio have a "job description"? When you back off and look at society, look at the economy, look at our structure of self-governance, does radio have a job? Does radio have any responsibilities? If a "system of patent protection" is a valid part of our society, economy and form of government, who has the task of making communication on the subject happen?

What we probably need in this country is some discussion on "The purpose of a broadcast license". Does a broadcast license convey the opportunity to generate income (and hopefully profit) in return for providing valuable service to the civilization that granted the license, or is a broadcast license simply a franchise to make money that carries NO obligations and responsibilities in return?

Why would I be so crass as to suggest that, of all people, Talk Radio should maybe 'carry some of the water' on this issue? Because elected people (politicians) have the responsibility and opportunity to decide whether we will have patent and copyright laws, and what they will be. And because Talk Radio has been so bold and brazen as to step into the arena of "Political Discussion" and present itself as the all-knowing resource for all political knowledge in this county. If you want to own the kitchen, you have to take on the responsibility for disposing of all the garbage the kitchen produces.

The simple thing to do would be to return Talk Radio to where it was 40 and 50 years ago: "O.K. Ladies. Bring on the recipes. Today I wan't to find out who knows how to make the finest coconut cake in all of our hometown!"

Final Point: Radio and Talk Radio may be in as much danger of bad intellectual property law as anybody. Maybe the question of whether we can be doing talk radio five years from now could be up for grabs. I'm a pack-rat. I'm beginning to unbox stuff I have collected for decades. What if I discover documentation I had long since forgotten that I could take to a lawyer and we could build a case, maybe a shabby case, but build a case that I own a patent and maybe a copyright on the whole concept of Talk Radio.

Everyone in Talk Radio has to have some interest in the possibility that the basic concept will eventually move off the airwaves and into streaming and podcasting. A major participant in this conversation, Small Market Guy, has pointed out that patent trolling has targeted people doing podcast type communication. I thought it was reasonable as I started passing out assignments, to suggest that Talk Radio has maybe both an opportunity and a responsibility to deal with the topic.

If Talk Radio insists that it has every right to constantly poke-and-stir and generally muck-up the political process of this nation, then I have no timidity in saying: Talk Radio has it's share of responsibility to help us clean up the political process. Tell me all the professions or lines of business who have more ownership of the problem of "screwed up politics" in our beloved little nation. Convince me radio and Talk Radio are not way up at the top of that list.
 
That is a valid point in the overall debate that takes place in this forum space.

Does any part of radio have a "job description"?

Some of it does, with regards to the regulations radio has to follow, with regards to the relationships radio makes, and with regards to the business.

But the reason I say it's not talk radio's job to bring the public up to speed on patent or copyright issues is it's really not a traditional "public" issue, that the public votes on. It's a policy issue, worked out in the halls of government. So it's not a very "sexy" topic to discuss on the radio, because it's all very dull legalese. Talk radio likes to turn issues into contention, and that's not the way to handle copyrights. Typically, the public gets asked questions like "Do you want to pay more for music?" The obvious answer is "No." But this copyright discussion will end up affecting the price consumers pay for music, either through fees passed on by providers, or through increased advertising.
 
But the reason I say it's not talk radio's job to bring the public up to speed on patent or copyright issues is it's really not a traditional "public" issue, that the public votes on. It's a policy issue, worked out in the halls of government. So it's not a very "sexy" topic to discuss on the radio, because it's all very dull legalese.

By your logic, Talk Radio should not be discussing Obamacare. The regulation and financing of medicine is not a traditional public issue that the public votes on.

By your logic, Talk Radio should not be discussing Benghazi. This is not a traditional public issue that the public votes on. Working on the minute details of diplomacy is normally worked out in the halls of government.

By your logic, Talk Radio should not be discussing Voter Registration and what are acceptable means of identification at the polling places on election day. We don't vote on those issues, they are normally worked out in the halls of government.

I am not sure how many more topics that are the daily bread-and-butter of Talk Radio that I could itemize that are really not traditional "public" issues that the public votes on, but Talk Radio folks (hosts and listeners) seem to get orgasmic about.
 
Last edited:
By your logic, Talk Radio should not be discussing Obamacare. The regulation and financing of medicine is not a traditional public issue that the public votes on.

All of the examples you give became issues in the 2012 election, and some see them as core issues in the 2014 election. Copyright law is not a core issue in any election, as far as I know.
 
All of the examples you give became issues in the 2012 election, and some see them as core issues in the 2014 election. Copyright law is not a core issue in any election, as far as I know.

Our back-and-forth on this topic has been like a quick, friendly game of tennis on a Saturday morning. I know I still have in my shirt pocket 2 or 3 more volleys of "logic" (I think they are logical :cool: ) and I am sure you would counter each of them with insightful opposing views.

Here is my take-away from this exchange: Short and simple little expressions of logic work now and then, but much of life requires a longer, more complex position statement. And you and I have had some fun with our "one-liners".

I grew up in a geography, a culture, that was saturated and dominated by what we today call 'Fundamentalism'. The Fundamentalists style of religions boils over and affects thinking on all phases of life. Where I grew up, if you didn't dance, if you didn't play cards, if you didn't smoke, if you didn't cuss, then you were an accepted, honored citizen. If you violate just ONE of the accepted prohibitions, then you were deemed to not be an upright citizen of the community, of the society.

We are more complex about it today, but in our business decisions, our political decisions, in our social decisions... when you look underneath the hood, we as a country seem to have a 21st Century love affair with the short snippy off-or-on, good-or-evil, up-or-down, go-nogo logic. That may work when you live in a rural community 100 miles west of San Antonio where the largest "city" s a county seat of 2,300 people... or in an Ozarks community 100 miles north of Little Rock, or in some mountain valley near where the Hatfields and the McCoys battled for years.

In the back of my mind, I knew this one was coming and we almost made it to election day (day after tomorrow) with it not happening. Young local businessman is running for the state legislature. He operates a funeral home. In a separate building just behind the funeral home is a building that apparently houses things that they just couldn't find space for in the big building plus the one space the public sees and uses. Many families have a 'reception' or maybe a light meal for their guests following a funeral so this young man had a delightful meeting room with a kitchenette as part of the expansion. Besides being available for family use before or after a funeral, he makes the room available for meetings of community based organizations. NO RENTAL CHARGE! I have seen this type of facility in a number of communities. When we go back to our hometown for a class reunion or family genealogy outing, the local bank has an annex building with such a meeting space.

Now back to what came in the mail yesterday. (Remember, I live in what has been proclaimed the SECOND MOST REPUBLICAN county in the nation!) The funeral director is running as a Republican. And the mailer revealed that he had committed the unpardonable sin. He lets the county Democratic Organization use his meeting room!!! The mailer embellished the claim: He HOSTS the Democrats. Obviously, he should never, never be elected to be a Republican to the state legislature. What he supports in tax law, not important. What he supports in education law, not important. What he proposes to do about Obamacare, not important. But letting Democrats meet in your Community Room???? Tilt! Foul! Disqualified!!!!

I don't know how to offer mature, fully-fleshed-out really workable guidelines to change radio broadcasting, but I see this campaign tactic as part of the flotsam and debris left on the American landscape because Talk Radio seems to not only giver permission, but encourage people to behave like this. In fact, I see Talk Radio as saying to the listener: If you aren't participating in this kind of outrageous behavior, you aren't a good American.
 
At the end of the day, we are all still bound by laws, many of which are either obsolete or becoming obsolete. A lot of the people who are supposed to make or revise those laws aren't interested in the process of legislating, just the process of getting elected. You have a handful of politicians marching around proclaiming that "everyone buy radio pays," but they lack the ability to build a consensus, which is the foundation of our democracy. So nothing gets done, and we still live under antiquated laws.
 
I don't know how to offer mature, fully-fleshed-out really workable guidelines to change radio broadcasting, but I see this campaign tactic as part of the flotsam and debris left on the American landscape because Talk Radio seems to not only giver permission, but encourage people to behave like this. In fact, I see Talk Radio as saying to the listener: If you aren't participating in this kind of outrageous behavior, you aren't a good American.

You do realize that this sort of tactic was taking place before radio was even conceived, right? Or before our nation was even founded?

I don't know what the answer to our broken system is, but blaming talk radio for everything isn't the solution.

And watch the damn video. Instead of just Googling it and dismissing it as some "thingy", actually WATCH the video. It explains the entire creative process and how there's pretty much no such thing as a completely original idea. Until we fix our patent and copyright system, this mess is going to get worse.
 
You do realize that this sort of tactic was taking place before radio was even conceived, right? Or before our nation was even founded?

I don't know what the answer to our broken system is, but blaming talk radio for everything isn't the solution.

Yeah, before Talk Radio even existed, we had tactics in our civilization that included burning people at the stake for being witches. We had slavery. We basically didn't allow women to be citizens, to be people. We had Indentured status for folks to pay the costs of getting here. We had people killing each other in duels. We had industrialists who hired Pinkerton thugs to make sure things went their way. The arrival of the phenomena known as Talk Radio should help us put more distance between us "and the sort of tactic that was taking place bvefore radio was even conceived.... right?



And watch the damn video. Instead of just Googling it and dismissing it as some "thingy", actually WATCH the video. It explains the entire creative process and how there's pretty much no such thing as a completely original idea. Until we fix our patent and copyright system, this mess is going to get worse.

Next week, don't put so much starch in your underwear. Give me the courtesy of taking me at my word on a few things. I watched the damn video.... THE WHOLE DAMN THING!!!!! They say he was teasing, but legend and history reports that in 1899 the man who ran the U.S. Patent Office made a proposal that we shut it down. After all, everything that CAN be invented, HAS been invented. Who needs a patent office! We laugh at him today. And now you are "preaching his gospel". We don't have a place in society anymore for patents.

Did you not read my stuffy recitation of my personal journey through the world of patents, and the fact that I had a lunch-time relationship with the patent attorney at a place where I worked in recent years?

I got up yesterday morning and posted nothing for much of the day. I gave strong consideration to NEVER POSTING AGAIN, never reading in several on-line forums in which I participate. I miss the days when I had face to face contact with pleasant, intelligent, friendly people. All my life I have tried to raise the I.Q. of the room by one or two points where ever I go. (Just walking in the room doesn't do that. I had to WORK at it!) All my life I have reached out to the people around me and learned everything I can from them.

Today.... I spend 18 to 20 hours a day being a care giver to my bride of many, many years. This forum has been like family to me for several years now. I can't go down to the coffee shop in town these days and catch up on current thought. I can't go to town hall meetings and exchange thoughts with my neighbors. But as hungry as I may be to keep up my life-long love of interfacing with people.... I look at the conversations you and I have had and I say: Self... if this is the best you can do, Just hang it up. Unplug the computer. As my tagline says: Life is too short to dance with ugly posts. And yours have gotten just plain damned ugly. Is that who you really are? Hanging out here is beginning to make my MY posts a bit ugly... and I don't plan to live that way. That is not who I really am.
 
the phenomena known as Talk Radio should help us put more distance between us "and the sort of tactic that was taking place bvefore radio was even conceived.... right?

Should it? I don't think it was ever that. Even in the good old days when government had a say in what was sent over the airwaves.

We don't have a place in society anymore for patents.

If that's what you got from that video, you really missed the entire point. Seriously. You missed the entire point.

Sorry if I seem a bit harsh, but I don't take being talked down to very well. It's not personal. I just don't buy into the constant blaming talk radio for everything, including the ills of MUSIC radio.
 
The problem with expecting government to fix all your problems is that you have people who know nothing about the subject trying to fix the problem.

People involved in the music industry need to fix this problem. Expecting a guy who has been sitting in the same Senate seat since the Beatles were all alive to fix the problem is just begging for disaster.

Congresspeople do have the capability of understanding something as complex as intellectual property, as many of them are lawyers, and lawyers are taught intellectual property in Law School.

And when they put their minds to legislation, many of the people in Congress do care enough to ensure that what they write into copyright law is something that is workable.

An example: when the DMCA was debated, several senators mentioned that it should be fair for a consumer to make one digital copy of a recording for home use. They discussed this issue in some depth, well aware of the concerns of the RIAA, as well as the concerns of the general public. Some of these discussions and comments made by senators and congressmen are available online.

The senators weren't talking like bumbling idiots. They actually were making good points. They seemed to actually care about the far reaching effects of changing and adapting the laws.

As far as the issue presented in the original post, I don't think radio should pay more than it already does. But that's just my opinion.
 
The senators weren't talking like bumbling idiots. They actually were making good points. They seemed to actually care about the far reaching effects of changing and adapting the laws.

I have mixed feelings about the DMCA. On the one hand, Congress recognized in 1998 the potential of the internet to allow consumers to record digital (or as they said, "CD quality) copies of music for free. And as a result, they set up a system to compensate record labels for their losses and create a new revenue stream. The mistake was putting the RIAA in charge of the new collection system, rather than using independent collectors like BMI and ASCAP. They also used a different method to calculate content value. That's led to the problems we have now. That's why I believe it will take Congress to fix the problems it created.
 
Yesterday, the RIAA made its case to the US Copyright Office that the OTA radio exemption for sound recordings royalty should be eliminated. They've been beating this same drum for 20 years. Meanwhile, their member record labels and artists have been spending billions of dollars trying to get OTA radio airplay. So they want radio to play their music, and they want radio to pay for that privilege. In the marketplace, airplay is the commodity, and it's in short supply. Those who get it, make more money from touring and other endorsements. There's an obvious connection between OTA airplay and wealth. But the RIAA also wants a royalty. Read here: http://www.allaccess.com/net-news/a...explains-to-u-s-copyright-office-why-radio-sh

At the same time, new legislation was introduced to require a digital royalty for all music recorded before 1972. That wasn't covered in the current DMCA:

The Respect Act is being introduced today (May 29) in the House of Representatives, and is legislation that would require digital radio services to pay royalties for pre-1972 recordings that are played by companies that use the statutory license administered by SoundExchange. The act is being introduced by Representatives George Holding (R-NC) and John Conyers (D-MI).

SoundExchange was joined by dozens of recording artists to launch “Project72,” a campaign to support The Respect Act. Project72 spotlights the fact that digital radio providers are not paying royalties to musicians who recorded music before February 15, 1972. This is based on the companies’ interpretation of state and federal copyright law. SoundExchange estimates that this practice deprived legacy artists and record labels of more than $60 million in digital royalties last year.
 
Last edited:
What's missing in all of this is that it's all the same music. It's all measured the same way. Radio pays $2 billion in performance royalties. It just needs to be divided fairly to all parts of the music industry. Not expect radio to pay a new royalty. We're already paying digital royalties to artists, labels, and writers, and they're growing every year. That was a new medium, so obviously it was appropriate to have a new royalty system. But our OTA costs haven't gone down, and our revenues haven't gone up, so there's no justification for a new royalty. Then again, the record labels are still charging $20 for albums even though they don't deliver physical products any more. They wonder why consumers don't want to pay for music. Radio is no different.
 
I could see how this could reduce the airplay of pre-1972 recordings and artists. Which wouldn't help those artists any.

Most of those musicians and vocalists are in their 70s or 80s -- or dead. Some of the living ones are still performing, but even if SiriusXM scraps its '60s and '70s music channels rather than pay the new fee, that's money they weren't seeing in the first place. And it's not like the Turtles' or Little Anthony's fans won't forget about them the moment '60s on 6 or '50s on 5 goes dark. They'll still be able to draw for the same sort of nostalgia shows they now perform until they -- or their fans -- are no longer around.
 
They'll still be able to draw for the same sort of nostalgia shows they now perform until they -- or their fans -- are no longer around.

That's not what the artists say. When WCBS-FM changed from oldies to Jack, the oldies artists immediately protested, saying it would affect their touring. But this isn't just about providing revenue for living artists. It's compensation for the companies that own the copyrights. That's really what's at stake, and those companies want to continue to make money from those copyrights forever. The Turtles actually own their copyrights, so they're double beneficiaries.
 
Last edited:
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom