Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[davideduardo]

Getting back to choosing formats, my example of the Ford Edsel again comes to mind. In all the research, it needs to be asked: "Will the advertisers buy the format?" More specifically "the audience"?

But the Edsel was one brand or model in the Ford lineup. They perceived that there was a need to have a product to complement the Ford - Mercury - Lincoln since Chrysler had Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto , Chrysler and Imperial and GM had Chevy, Pontiack, Oldmobile, Buick and Cadillac.

The auto industry in the 50's and 60's has been analyzed as having a very definite manufacturing focus based on "If we build it they will buy it" as opposed to a consumer focus of finding out what the consumer wanted. That is why the Japanese manufacturers were able to so rapidly establish a foothold by offering less expensive, more durable cars with the basic features consumers wanted.

In one article, it is stated that "Ford had never “test marketed” the vehicle or its unique styling concepts with potential, “real” buyers prior to either the vehicle’s initial development decision or the vehicle’s shipments to its new dealerships."

The research on the Edsel had more to do with looking at the Oldmobile-Buick-Cadillac and the Desoto-Chrysler-Imperial market segment where Ford thought they were missing a brand. They found out that there was a need for such a product, but then proceeded to do no research on the design, features or even the pricing on the Edsel. The cars, amazingly, were first shipped to dealers wrapped in paper so there was not even any dealer input.

 

[BOZ Profit]

But Oldies has admittedly found the station that's right for him. He's found several. That's not his goal in this discussion.

I wasn't suggesting his goal was to find the right station for him. What I meant by my analogy is that playlists are "hands", and "gloves" are radio stations.

Extensive playlists are not a round peg and LA is not a square hole.

An extensive playlist may work on some stations. Oldies has expressed his desire to understand why it won't in LA when it is working elsewhere (smaller markets). I think we have covered it pretty well. He has said he accepts the answers from you all.

But I suppose, that's just the way it is these days.

Is there any reason at this point to keep debating and beating a dead horse?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

As this thread approaches 300 posts, let me say that I don't mind hearing "Hotel California" on KRTH or any of the other 3 or 4 LA stations that might play it. Why? Because I rarely listen to KRTH but recently I sampled KRTH on my commute home and was not shocked or disgusted with the tracks I did hear. They were OK to hear. Funny thing is some of them were tracks played regularly from the adult alt stations I listen to. For example from today's KRTH playlist -- songs like "Tainted Love"-Soft Cell (repeated three times just today); "When Doves Cry"-Prince; "Major Tom"-Peter Schilling; White Wedding-Billy Idol; Don't You Forget About Me-Simple Minds; Let's Dance-David Bowie'; Baker Street-Gerry Rafferty; Rock Steady-The Whispers ... (hah just kidding about that one); Smooth-Santana; With or Without You-U2; Another Brick in the Wall-Pink Floyd (although KRTH only plays the single edited version); Heart of Glass-Blondie; Need You Tonight-INXS; Just What I Needed-The Cars; Dancing with Myself-Billy Idol (kind of surprised they play this one). Just a sample of tracks KRTH plays that are shared on AAA and elsewhere. However, when looking through the KRTH playlist for just today, I noticed quite a few tracks repeated (as we've all noted). So KRTH's programming for me is OK if I only listen in small doses. The adult alt and oldies stations that I like I give a high TSL so a station like KRTH would burn me out very quickly. I wouldn't mind seeing some 60s and 70s oldies tracks that I like mixed in with KRTH's playlist but that ain't gonna happen.

I also notice a lot of adult alt tracks are shared by CHR stations...
For instance on another CBS property- AMP radio- they play these tracks that I also hear on AAA stations- Wake Me Up-Avicii (not played on every AAA); Team-Lorde; Stay With Me-Sam Smith; Counting Stars-OneRepublic; Pompeii-Bastille; Safe and Sound-Capital Cities;

YIKES! After looking at the repetition on AMP Radio, by comparison KRTH plays a huge playlist of different titles

 

[chrocket87]

I also notice a lot of adult alt tracks are shared by CHR stations...
For instance on another CBS property- AMP radio- they play these tracks that I also hear on AAA stations- Wake Me Up-Avicii (not played on every AAA); Team-Lorde; Stay With Me-Sam Smith; Counting Stars-OneRepublic; Pompeii-Bastille; Safe and Sound-Capital Cities;

I think that's the problem with AAA: It's playlist was once very different from other formats. Now, it seems to have a large amount of overlap with Alternative and then a decent amount of overlap with Hot AC as it tries to become more of a mass appeal format. Throw in the fact that LA already has two Alternative stations and one Hot AC and I'm just not sure how much traction such a format would gain. (Though there are still a few unique AAAs, like KINK)

A question for David, since we're back on the AAA topic. What is the usual power ratio for AAA? I would imagine it fares better than its counterparts due to its (perceived) well-educated target, but am I correct?
How well are some of the big AAA stations billing? (KFOG, KINK, KBCO, etc.) I know WXRT bills alright, but how about some other stations in the format?

 

[davideduardo]

A question for David, since we're back on the AAA topic. What is the usual power ratio for AAA? I would imagine it fares better than its counterparts due to its (perceived) well-educated target, but am I correct?
How well are some of the big AAA stations billing? (KFOG, KINK, KBCO, etc.) I know WXRT bills alright, but how about some other stations in the format?

KBCO is 4th in billings in the whole market, and has a very strong 1.47 power ratio.
KINK is 2nd in billings and has a 1.33 power ratio.
KFOG is 15th in market billings and has a poor .88 power ratio.
WXRT is 12th in billings and it has a 1.22 power ratio.

Income and education are not frequent bases for buying. The format does best where it fits the local lifestyle, and it gets prime sales demos when it is a station like KINK or KBCO. But those tend to be very heritage stations.

 

[Unregistered]

But KRTH has had experience with larger playlists, and it hasn't brought the results they have now. RESULTS MATTER. You keep overlooking the fact that we have statistics on radio stations with large and small playlists, over a 30 year period, and we've seen the results over and over.

KRTH was at its lowest point when it had its smallest playlist. The Jay Coffey years.

The reason KRTH is doing well now is, I would suggest, not because they have a small playlist. It's because they suddenly starting playing a lot of NEW songs. New meaning 1980s. New = not boring.

Check back in a year, though. If they have not added in more tunes, or changed the tunes, they will not sustain the #1 position.

 

[oldies76]

KRTH was at its lowest point when it had its smallest playlist. The Jay Coffey years.

The reason KRTH is doing well now is, I would suggest, not because they have a small playlist. It's because they suddenly starting playing a lot of NEW songs. New meaning 1980s. New = not boring.

Check back in a year, though. If they have not added in more tunes, or changed the tunes, they will not sustain the #1 position.

Makes sense. KRTH can maintain it's 400 song playlist, as long as they keep it fresh up with "new" songs. When the playlist becomes stale over time, is when problems may occur, and Jay Coffey was one of those times.

 

[michael hagerty]

KRTH was at its lowest point when it had its smallest playlist. The Jay Coffey years.

.

Not entirely true. Checking the numbers, KRTH did well for the first couple of years of Coffey's tenure. Mike Phillips had a worse year in '99 than any of Jay's first two. And he did better than Phil Hall's last two years or Hamilton's numbers from '81-'85.

The problem with Jay's tenure was that he had no plan for keeping burnout from setting in or what to do when it did. So his last two years (which were still better than Hall's last two) darn near killed the station.

There is a lesson here about super-tight rotations, though: It took two years for it to hurt Jay...and all of those songs had been in super-tight rotation under Phillips for 11 or so years before. So, arguably, it took L.A. 13 years to burn on those titles.

 

[michael hagerty]

But the Edsel was one brand or model in the Ford lineup. They perceived that there was a need to have a product to complement the Ford - Mercury - Lincoln since Chrysler had Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto , Chrysler and Imperial and GM had Chevy, Pontiack, Oldmobile, Buick and Cadillac.

The auto industry in the 50's and 60's has been analyzed as having a very definite manufacturing focus based on "If we build it they will buy it" as opposed to a consumer focus of finding out what the consumer wanted. That is why the Japanese manufacturers were able to so rapidly establish a foothold by offering less expensive, more durable cars with the basic features consumers wanted.

In one article, it is stated that "Ford had never “test marketed” the vehicle or its unique styling concepts with potential, “real” buyers prior to either the vehicle’s initial development decision or the vehicle’s shipments to its new dealerships."

The research on the Edsel had more to do with looking at the Oldmobile-Buick-Cadillac and the Desoto-Chrysler-Imperial market segment where Ford thought they were missing a brand. They found out that there was a need for such a product, but then proceeded to do no research on the design, features or even the pricing on the Edsel. The cars, amazingly, were first shipped to dealers wrapped in paper so there was not even any dealer input.

I had the privilege of knowing and working with Gayle Warnock, the Ford executive given the unenviable task of promoting and selling the Edsel once it came to market. Gayle used words to describe the experience that would get me a lifetime ban here.

The short version is, as David notes, that Ford wanted a car to slot in between Mercury and Lincoln, to directly compete with Buick and Chrysler (Mercury was seen as direct competition for Oldsmobile, Pontiac, DeSoto and Dodge...Ford as direct competiton for Chevrolet and Plymouth, with Lincoln taking on Cadillac and Imperial).

They did no research. They simply looked at what the other guys were doing and said "how can we top it?" The car became a carrier for design themes and features that didn't work together. It became a caricature of late 50s automotive excess. Ford went so far away from attempting to gauge the public's taste that they hired poet Marianne Moore to come up with names for the car. Her list:

The Ford Silver Sword
Hirundo
Aerundo
Hurricane Hirundo (swallow)
Hurricane Aquila (eagle)
Hurricane Accipter (hawk)
The Impeccable
Symmechromatic
Thunderblender
The Resilient Bullet
Intelligent Bullet
Bullet Cloisoné
Bullet Lavolta
The Intelligent Whale
The Ford Fabergé (That there is also a perfume Fabergé seems to me to do no harm, for here allusion is to the original silversmith)
The Arc-en-Ciel (the rainbow)
Arcenciel
Mongoose Civique
Anticipator
Regna Racer (couronne a couronne) sovereign to sovereign
Aeroterre
Fée Rapide (Aerofee, Aero Faire, Fee Aiglette, Magi-faire) Comme Il Faire
Tonnere Alifère (winged thunder)
Aliforme Alifère (wing-slender a-wing)
Turbotorc (used as an adjective by Plymouth)
Thunderbird Allié (Cousin Thunderbird)
Thunder Crester
Dearborn Diamanté
Magigravure
Pastelogram
Regina-Rex
Taper Racer
Varsity Stroke
Angelastro
Astranaut
Chaparral
Tir á l'arc (bull's eye)
Cresta Lark
Triskelion (three legs running)
Pluma Piluma (hairfine, feather-foot)
Adante con Moto (description of a good motor?)
Turcotinga (turqoise cotinga-the cotinga being a South-American finch or sparrow) solid indigo.
Utopian Turtletop


Perhaps the only smart thing the Ford crew did in the entire Edsel program was to throw the list away. They named the car after Henry Ford's son Edsel, instead.

They ended up with an ugly car with an unattractive name.

The Edsel is what happens when you rely on your own assumption of what the public wants instead of asking them.

Gayle Warnock got his pound of flesh from the guys at Ford for putting him through that. He made sure they did absolutely everything right on his next big car launch: The 1967 Mercury Cougar. The result of three years of research based on a stated demand from customers for something the size of the Mustang but with more of a luxury feel.

 

[michael hagerty]

Having managed a station I completely understand the game, I mean ... method used. : )

I am curious how you would respond to this: If you own a business, with a radio ad budget of $120,000 per year why would you advertise on the #1 station with an AQH audience of 10,000 and spending $10,000/month for 33 spots (@ $330/spot) when you could advertise on #10 with an AQH of 1,000 and get 200 spots (@ $50/spot). In the first example you barely get 1 spot a day. In the second you get almost 7. You have a better chance of getting a response in the second example than the 1st. And response is what radio is supposed to do for advertisers.

Late with this because I was out yesterday afternoon and evening.

I've actually bought radio advertising for a TV station...had a budget of about $250,000 a year for five consecutive years. We'd buy during Nielsen sweeps months...February, May, July and November...but July was widely considered a throw-away book by the agencies, so I generally broke that up into rough thirds of $80,000+ a shot.

I've bought the number one station sometimes and not others. The trap with going for a bunch on number 10 is that while you get frequency, you're missing a lot of ears...the people who never listen to that station. I found that usually there's a significant spot rate difference between #1 and #3 (and sometimes #2 if the ratings gap is considerable or if #1 and #2 are owned by different companies).

I'd never put it all on one station. I'd usually go five deep. But if #1 was so overpriced that it was no longer a decent value, what I found worked well (at least in that time and in that market), was to take any leftover money (including money that would have gone to #1 had they not been overpriced) and buy time on traffic reports that air on multiple stations. They were usually less expensive than a spot on a specific station, got us on very nearly every station in the market and aired in a segment that appealed to working adults who were generally very focused on that traffic report.

 

[davideduardo]

There is a lesson here about super-tight rotations, though: It took two years for it to hurt Jay...and all of those songs had been in super-tight rotation under Phillips for 11 or so years before. So, arguably, it took L.A. 13 years to burn on those titles.

It certainly did not hurt that KRTH had an amazing talent lineup during that era. Some of the ups and downs can likely be closely correlated with the Morgan and Steele presence. It would be an interesting to see a timeline of topline ratings, jock lineups and even promotional activities.

 

[TheBigA]

It certainly did not hurt that KRTH had an amazing talent lineup during that era.

That's the part of this discussion that bothers me...when critics complain about playlists and repetition, totally ignoring the world class heritage air staff. I'll say it again: A radio station is more than a playlist. Those who harp on the size of the playlist are clearly not P1 listeners that the station is targeting. If all they want is a big playlist, there are lots of other places to go.

 

[oldies76]

That's the part of this discussion that bothers me...when critics complain about playlists and repetition, totally ignoring the world class heritage air staff. I'll say it again: A radio station is more than a playlist. Those who harp on the size of the playlist are clearly not P1 listeners that the station is targeting. If all they want is a big playlist, there are lots of other places to go.

I, for one, have never ignored the great talent and historical heritage that KRTH has had to offer, especially in the past. KRTH is a legendary station with legendary on-air staff, from Mr. Rock and Roll, Brian Beirne, to Charlie Tuna, to Robert W. Morgan, the Real Don Steele and Shotgun Tom Kelly among many, many others. Plus you add the jingles by the Johnny Mann Singers and boom, you've got a station!! I have never disputed this or ignored it. It's a great station and I have given it plenty of well-deserved credit, with the start up of my own music collection and other great memories from the 1980's when it was top notch.

KRTH is doing fine with it's current listeners and demos and that's great for them. For them, it's their top notch KRTH. It isn't for me as much anymore.

We've only complained about their playlists to compare to the way KRTH used to be, in regards to it's musical selections, then and now.

But like you have said, which I agree. A station is more than just a playlist.

KRTH is legendary, since 1972 and with roots to the KHJ days, it's icing on the cake!

 

[landtuna]

The [Edsel] became a carrier for design themes and features that didn't work together. It became a caricature of late 50s automotive excess.

The Edsel was essentially a Mercury in different sheet metal. Although it caught hell for being "a Mercury sucking on a lemon" it wasn't unattractive by the standards of the late 50's. It had a classic roofline, a squared-off body, no fins - in short, nothing for it to stand out and that was part of the problem. The worst problem though, and one that was going to affect many more marques than Ford, was the upcoming recession (of 1958) and subsequent buyer move to more economical cars. The days of the big land yachts were coming to a close if only temporarily. By 1960 we had the Lark, the Valiant, the Corvair and the Falcon and it became near impossible for the big so-called "midsized" cars to find buyers.

 

[JeffM]

They did no research. They simply looked at what the other guys were doing and said "how can we top it?" The car became a carrier for design themes and features that didn't work together. It became a caricature of late 50s automotive excess. Ford went so far away from attempting to gauge the public's taste that they hired poet Marianne Moore to come up with names for the car. Her list:

The Ford Silver Sword
Hirundo
Aerundo
Hurricane Hirundo (swallow)
Hurricane Aquila (eagle)
Hurricane Accipter (hawk)
The Impeccable
Symmechromatic
Thunderblender
The Resilient Bullet
Intelligent Bullet
Bullet Cloisoné
Bullet Lavolta
The Intelligent Whale
The Ford Fabergé (That there is also a perfume Fabergé seems to me to do no harm, for here allusion is to the original silversmith)
The Arc-en-Ciel (the rainbow)
Arcenciel
Mongoose Civique
Anticipator
Regna Racer (couronne a couronne) sovereign to sovereign
Aeroterre
Fée Rapide (Aerofee, Aero Faire, Fee Aiglette, Magi-faire) Comme Il Faire
Tonnere Alifère (winged thunder)
Aliforme Alifère (wing-slender a-wing)
Turbotorc (used as an adjective by Plymouth)
Thunderbird Allié (Cousin Thunderbird)
Thunder Crester
Dearborn Diamanté
Magigravure
Pastelogram
Regina-Rex
Taper Racer
Varsity Stroke
Angelastro
Astranaut
Chaparral
Tir á l'arc (bull's eye)
Cresta Lark
Triskelion (three legs running)
Pluma Piluma (hairfine, feather-foot)
Adante con Moto (description of a good motor?)
Turcotinga (turqoise cotinga-the cotinga being a South-American finch or sparrow) solid indigo.
Utopian Turtletop

On the other hand, you may just have provided the names for several dozen new bands...(Heard the new EP by Mongoose Civique?)

 

[reelyreal]

Didn't Symmechromatic open for Mongoose Civique at the El Rey last summer?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

LOL Edsels and bands. I'm thinking of going to see Varsity Stroke at the Coach House next weekend.

Maybe I'll request them to play a cover of Hotel California.
A few more posts to get to 300.

 

[oldies76]

Since Labor Day Weekend, according to their playlist log, "Hotel California" has yet to air even once. Could excessive airplay on this and other songs recently have caused KRTH to fall to third place? Just a thought...

Also noticing that "Louie Louie" (1963) and "Do Wah Diddy Diddy" (1964) and some Stones music (Jumpin' Jack Flash & Satisfaction) are getting some airtime of late.

 

[TheBigA]

Since Labor Day Weekend, according to their playlist log, "Hotel California" has yet to air even once. Could excessive airplay on this and other songs recently have caused KRTH to fall to third place? Just a thought..

You think that if you keep saying something over and over, it will make it true? Remember that if it's true, that the excessive airplay also made them #1.

 

[davideduardo]

Since Labor Day Weekend, according to their playlist log, "Hotel California" has yet to air even once. Could excessive airplay on this and other songs recently have caused KRTH to fall to third place? Just a thought...

KRTH did not "fall" in anything that matters. In fact, they reinforced their third place in 25-54 by increasing by a full half of a share point. They did, apparently, shed a few more 55+ listeners, making 12+, which nobody looks at in the industry, look a bit lower.