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Cable channel lineup oddities

I very vaguely remember KCET being on Channel 3, back when PBS still had the rights to "The Magic School Bus". All I remember was when it was channel 28 (that slot is now held by KOCE, itself a PBS affiliate). KFTR was channel 27, and I think KMEX was channel 19.

My provider now carries KCET on channel 700 (!)
 
unclehonkey said:
In Duluth, MN the locals have always been on weird spots (due to the OTA antennas being so close)
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This may not be so unusual. In Charlotte, the over-the-air analog numbers are not used for channels 3 and 9 because of interference, and I assume they didn't want to make anyone mad when the over-the-air channels became digital by moving them to their logical places. I'm far enough away that 3 and 9 are on 3 and 9.

Channel 64 (its old analog position) is on 2. That is pretty weird.
 
As long ago as the early 1970's, cable systems typically did not carry OTA stations on the same channel number that they were broadcast on. Given over forty years of history of not carrying OTA channels on the same channel number as their OTA channels, how the hell does not carrying OTA channels on the same channel number as their OTA channel suddenly become "odd"?
 
In Traverse City-Cadillac:
WPBN (TV 7&4) is on virtual 7 in Traverse City but on cable 4 there. In the UP, it's the opposite (virtual 4, cable 7). It serves as the default NBC affiliate for Alpena, where it's on cable 7. In Hart, WPBN is on cable 21.
WGTU (ABC 29&8) is on cable 8 throughout most of the market. In Harrison and West Branch, it's on cable 16, as Flint's FOX affiliate WSMH occupies cable 8 in those areas.
WWTV (9&10 News) is on cable 10 throughout the entire market.
WLLZ (MyTV 12) is on cable 11 throughout most of the portion of the market in which it is carried. It's on cable 24 in Clare and Harrison and not carried at all in Ludington or Big Rapids.
Cable-only CW affiliate WBVC is on cable 61 in most of the market, but it's on cable 17 in Ludington and Big Rapids (which had no CW affiliate at all on cable prior to Charter's all-digital switchover in the area).
There are no channels 2 or 7 on Charter Northern Michigan. Maybe 2 is reserved for when/if CHBX converts to digital :)

In Alpena:
In addition to the WPBN note, WBKB (virtual 11) is carried on cable 10, while its ABC subchannel is on cable 12 (where WJRT was carried).

In Flint-Saginaw-Bay City:
Speaking of WJRT, it's on cable 11 on Charter systems.
WNEM (virtual 5) is on cable 7 on Charter systems.
WNEM's digital subchannel (MNTV) is on Charter 199.

Grand Rapids is mostly straight-forward, but has some exceptions.
WOOD (virtual 8) is on cable 7 on Charter Big Rapids (TC DMA). It was on cable 8 until WGTU was added there.
WWMT's CW subchannel is branded as CW7, but is on cable 17 on Comcast Grand Rapids.
WXSP (virtual 15) is on cable 18 on Comcast Grand Rapids. WKBD was originally on cable 18.
 
Ludington, MI (Traverse City DMA) used to have the out-of-market stations scattered all over the place in the 1990s.
WITI (CBS/FOX 6 Milwaukee) was cable 27 before being dropped.
WGVU (PBS 35 Grand Rapids) was cable 28 before being moved to cable 12, where it is today.
WGTU (ABC 29 Traverse City) was cable 29 before being dropped and then re-added earlier this year, this time on cable 8.
WTMJ (NBC 4 Milwaukee) was cable 31 before being dropped.
WLUK (NBC/FOX 11 Green Bay) was cable 36 before being moved to cable 11 and then eventually dropped.
WBAY (ABC 2 Green Bay) was cable 41 before being moved to cable 2 and then eventually dropped.
WFRV (CBS 5 Green Bay) was cable 43 before being moved to cable 15 and then cable 4 (in-market FOX WFQX was cable 5), before being dropped.

Even the in-market stations have shuffled.
WCMW (PBS 21) was cable 3 before being moved to cable 6 in 2014.
WFQX (FOX 32) was cable 5 before being moved to cable 3 in 2014.
WPBN (NBC 7) was cable 7 before being moved to cable 4 in 2014.
WWTV (CBS 9) was cable 9 before being moved to cable 10 in the mid 2000s.
 
WBBJ 7 in Jackson, TN was on channel 8 on Charter until the digital transition in 2009, when it was moved to channel 7 and channel 8 has been empty ever since, which really doesn't make much sense to me. It looks like that would be the logical place for 7.3. Even with the upcoming changes 7.3 is staying on channel 16.
 
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Tim from Springfield said:
Meanwhile, of the cable channels before 19, these are NOT being used for local affiliates:

--4 (Public Access)
--5 ("Local Advertising" but actually more like "national infomercials")
--9 (WGN America--but for how much longer with it becoming less Chicago-centric i.e. losing the Cubs)
--11 (HSN)
--13 (QVC)
--14 (vacant)--as are cable channels 20 and 23
--15 (CSPAN)
--16 (TVG)
--17 (Weatherscan)
--18 (Educational Access)

And then finally WCIX on 19. Why not just bump Local Advertising or one of the shopping channels to one of the vacant channel numbers below 24 and move WCIX to either 5, 11, or 13 (preferably on 13 to match its OTA RF channel).
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Having briefly worked in cable television in my early years, I can give you a possible answer:

Most cable systems still have a lineup for channels 2 through 13 that are based on the premise that analog subscribers without boxes still have non-cable ready sets. In your example, channel 5 is probably sold on the basis that all of the system's subscribers can receive the channel. Channels 11 and 13 probably are on a lease arrangement with the two home shopping channels and the cable system gets a higher percentage commission on sales because of the low-VHF channel number. The fact that they are now all-digital (apparently) probably doesn't negate those arrangements, but I see no reason why the shopping and access channels would need encryption.

If WCIX has been on its present channel that long, it is probably a position that was negotiated between station and system. There are FCC rules specifically allowing this.
 
From ksradiogeek on RadioInsight:

I’ve been to DC twice, and have watched cable TV. I’ve noticed the locals (WRC, WTTA, WJLA, WUSA) are all on the channel 20 range, not on their OTA position (I know WDCA and the others are all grouped in a local category). Baltimore is the same way (WMAR on 12 not 2, WBAL on 21 not 11, WJZ on 23 not 13). I’ve noticed in some other cities (Kansas City, which I live close to, Detroit, Toronto) that local channels are listed in the 20’s, not on their OTA position. I heard once it dealt with something in the analog area, but I’m confused. Why is this?
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In the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre market area, most all of the cable systems have the dial looking like this:

2 - WYOU-22 (CBS)
3 - WBRE-28 (NBC)
4 - WVIA-44 (PBS)
5 - WOLF-56 (FOX)
6 - WNEP-16 (ABC)
7 - WQMY-53 (MY)
11 - WSWB-38 (WB)

An exception being Wilkes-Barre, where WYOU-22 is on 12 and WBRE-TV is on 13. Positions 5 and 11 were, for many years, housing WNYW-5 and WPIX-11 from NYC.
 
I recall in the south suburbs of Chicago, we had Cox and they put WMAQ (over the air channel 5) on Channel 54 saying, it would cause interference on channel 5. Then when Jones Intercable bought out the Cox franchise, they quickly moved WMAQ to channel 5 saying, "Channel 5 on channel 5, it just makes sense." So much for interference.
 
Markxxx said:
I recall in the south suburbs of Chicago, we had Cox and they put WMAQ (over the air channel 5) on Channel 54 saying, it would cause interference on channel 5. Then when Jones Intercable bought out the Cox franchise, they quickly moved WMAQ to channel 5 saying, "Channel 5 on channel 5, it just makes sense." So much for interference.
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The same sort of thing happened in Harrisburg. As long as I could remember (going back 30 years), it looked like this:

2 - WHP-21 (CBS)
3 - WGAL-8 (NBC)
4 - WHTM-27 (ABC)
6 - WITF-33 (PBS)

21, 8, and 33 are still at those positions, but citing digital interference, 27 moved from dial position 4, to 9. 4 now holds C-SPAN.
 
harrisburgpatv2 said:
The same sort of thing happened in Harrisburg. As long as I could remember (going back 30 years), it looked like this:

2 - WHP-21 (CBS)
3 - WGAL-8 (NBC)
4 - WHTM-27 (ABC)
6 - WITF-33 (PBS)

21, 8, and 33 are still at those positions, but citing digital interference, 27 moved from dial position 4, to 9. 4 now holds C-SPAN.
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How is that "odd"?
 
What strikes me as odd is when a TV station uses an analog cable channel number as their slogan and not their actual legacy or digital channel number. Case in point is WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 of New Haven. They call themselves "MY-TV 9" in their promos and other advertising. It's irritating for those getting WCTX over-the-air (like I do) and those with HD cable converters. The only stations left in Hartford/New Haven even using their legacy channel numbers today are CBS channel 3 (digital 33) and ABC channel 8 (digital 10).

For those who get expanded basic with a converter, the lineup for the locals (in standard definition) looks like this:

3- WFSB-TV (CBS) channel 3 Hartford
4- WVIT-TV (NBC) channel 30 New Britain
6- WTIC-TV (FOX) channel 61 Hartford
7- WEDH-TV (PBS) channel 24 Hartford
8- WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 New Haven
9- WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 New Haven
10- WHPX-TV (ION) channel 26 New London
11- WCCT-TV (CW) channel 20 Waterbury
12- WGBY-TV (PBS) channel 57 Springfield, MA
13- WRDM-CD (TEL) channel 50 Hartford [low-power digital station]
18- WUVN-TV (UNI) channel 18 Hartford
 
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thomwim said:
Because basic cable channels are hardly ever on VHF-numbered channels anymore.
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No true....TWC is Texas used SD basic channels on 2-13....however, for years, in one market, the cable ingress of the over the air signals were so bad (due to poor shielding), the local channels were on other channels than their OTA ones and community access was used on the "OTA" numbered instead...so 4, 6 and 12 was on 2,3 and 9...now the only station in DTV is on 12 and is much lower in power output...yes TWC has not put the x.1 channels BACK on the "correct" numbers to match the virtual channel....2 and 3 would be perfect for the useless "local access" channels...so hams on 6m could use that band without causing TVI to local station signals on TWC.......A lot of cable companies around Houston uses the same channels as the virtual x.1 on their systems and did so during the analog days EXCEPT channel 2 KRPC which was often on another channel due to the longer wavelength having a better chance of leaking into the cable and causing interference (cross hatching, etc)..now KPRC 2.1 is on RF35..and I think the basic tier has them back on cable 2....of course the HD channels are on higher numbers
 
Comcast cable in San Francisco has retained the now 40 year old dial positions of Channel 44 (cable 12), and Channel 20 (cable 13). Obviously, it's a relic of the 2-13 TV dial days of Viacom cable in the 60s and 70s. Direct TV, and I assume - Dish Network - put these channels on 44 and 20 where they belong.

From what I understand, the UHF stations actually prefer the cable positions, with the assumption that viewers will tune between the lower channels more often, perhaps because that's where the Big 4 networks can usually be found.
 
thomwim said:
Because basic cable channels are hardly ever on VHF-numbered channels anymore.
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Even on Comcast's Chicago systems, they're still like that. Comcast has two areas with differing lineups.

In one, ESPN, TVGN, USA and TNT are all below 13 (3, 4, 10 and 13). Most locals are on their analog numbers (WXFT on 34, not 60, is an exception; also, WGBO, WPWR and WFLD are all within the 2-13 range).

In another, CLTV is on channel 10 and ESPN still carries its prime cable 3 position, but WSNS is on 4. This one also grouped a bunch of locals at 13 and above, like WCIU (13), WXFT (15) and WJYS (18).
 
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