Stations with redundant signals/mostly useless translators (Or the other way around..

[AKDXer]

(Forgive me if there's already a similar topic; feel free to merge with that thread if such a thread exists)

What stations can you think of that have more than one signal that covers the same area, or a translator inside the local coverage area of the parent signal, and covers less area (or more than the parent signal, for that matter?)

I can think of two already:

KCAW 104.7, Sitka, AK. They have a huge, 3,600w signal, which covers Sitka (a very spread-out city amongst mountains, trees, etc) quite well, it's a total blowtorch of a signal for what it is. But there's a translator on 90.1 in the downtown area...WHY? As far as I know it does NOTHING...it doesn't cover any other areas the main signal doesn't...it doesn't fill a "hole" in the parent signal's coverage that I'm aware of.

KFSK 100.9 Petersburg: Here's the OPPOSITE case. Their main signal on 100.9, with an ERP of 2000 watts, covers Petersburg decently...but they have a translator on 91.1...which is a huge flamethrower for the 140w signal it is. No joke, it gets out better than the parent signal, and covers exponentially more area than its parent signal does. I wonder why they didn't just go through a frequency change to 91.1 if that's what they wanted and make THAT their main signal and get rid of the "original" parent signal? I'm not 100% sure where said translator is, but it sure gets out way better than its parent signal!

 

[Carltheradioguy]

Yes, I got one in my area. 94.9 WJJF and 93.9 from Montauk NY, they have towers in same town so translator is totally useless.

 

[crainbebo]

There are so many examples I could make a book about it.
The biggest example I know is KAWZ Twin Falls, or better known as CSN International. It started out as a religious station on 89.9, then was fed via translator after translator throughout the nation. They are an absolute nuisance in many markets. The Seattle market has CSN on at least three channels if not more. 89.1, 105.7 and 107.3 are examples. In Yakima we get them at 91.5 and 92.5 and they make no difference in reception. KAWZ's programming never gets ratings anywhere the translators are located...it's just a waste of space on the dial and they just want more $$$.
Another one is KACS 90.5 Chehalis, WA. They have a waste of space on 102.3 right in downtown Chehalis. The main signal is 60dbu where the translator is located and it just wastes a channel that could be used by a commercial station, an LPFM, or static.
There are many NPRs with overlapping translators and full power stations. NWPR is one example, mucking up the band with way too many translators in WA. With internet streaming, why do these translators exist?
Oh, here's another one: 91.1 KROH Port Townsend, WA. For many years, KPLU operated a translator in Mount Vernon before it had to go to 105.5 due to this new religious station. It hardly gets any listeners and screws up 91.3 Victoria just 25 miles across the water.
And you want to talk about redundant translators? Think of all of the AMs getting licenses for translators. Many of these translators are in the same city of license. For example, let's think 700 WLW can't be heard in Cincinnati office buildings, so we'll muck up the dial with an FM translator! Ugh.

 

[jim-satx]

There are three really annoying FM translators in San Antonio. 50 kW KKYX on 680 (country), 5 kW KTSA on 550 (news/talk), and 25 kW KZDC on 1250 (sports) have translators on 104.9, 107.1, and 94.5, respectively. All three have very powerful signals in town with daytime fringe reception that extends to central Texas and the gulf coast. Their signals, especially KKYX's and KTSA's, are no slouches at night, either.

All three translators are indeed wastes of space on the FM dial, and like some of the stations you guys mentioned above, they fill no "holes" in parent station coverage.

 

[charlestondxman]

The Charleston area has a ton of these. 100.9 and 101.3 have the same format (Way FM) and are simulcast. They serve much of the same area, but since 100.9 has a weak signal in Mt. Pleasant and downtown Charleston, they had to put a TX there. We have on AM, 980 and 1480 AM which simulcast the same Spanish format. 1480 though is a weak signal daytime inland, so 980 serves the rest of the region.

950 and 1340 AM simulcast a news/talk format. During the day, 1340 and 950 serve much of the same area, but 950 is better inland. It is useful at night though.

 

[AKDXer]

Just...wow! I can understand translators/translators and parent signals potentially overlapping with similar signal strengths but one signal covering something the other doesn't. But in the case of KCAW I'd get rid of the translator on 90.1...if you really want to be at 90.1 like many public radio stations (that's what they are, NPR) just go through a frequency change (I'm not sure what the process is with the FCC for that but I imagine it's easy enough to do) and make that signal as powerful as 104.7 is now. With KFSK though, I wonder if it's because with the translator being on a remote mountaintop and still having better coverage (covers the area of the parent signal and then some) it's being used to feed the translator, the translator being feed over-the-air by the signal on 100.9 and rebroadcasting it at 91.1 for better coverage. (I've heard of translators doing that before, just relaying their programming over the air down their daisy chain of translators).

And CSN...there's one of those in Petersburg too. It doesn't show up in Radio-Locator so I wonder if it's licensed.

Oh, and now that I'm thinking of Petersburg radio stations KFSK has ANOTHER Petersburg translator at 103.1! Their whole FM dial is KFSK and CSN. See here: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/locate?select=city&city=Petersburg&state=AK

K216AA, which I've mentioned before elsewhere on R-D, is the blowtorch one, I can hear it at my house like 50-ish miles away in Port Alexander!

 

[davideduardo]

All three translators are indeed wastes of space on the FM dial, and like some of the stations you guys mentioned above, they fill no "holes" in parent station coverage.

But the three translators are on FM. There are plenty of people who will listen to a particular format on FM who would never, ever listen on AM. And the better SA translators cover between 50% and 60% of the whole market's population, so they are quite effective in adding numbers to declining AM stations.

 

[davideduardo]

Another one is KACS 90.5 Chehalis, WA. They have a waste of space on 102.3 right in downtown Chehalis. The main signal is 60dbu where the translator is located and it just wastes a channel that could be used by a commercial station, an LPFM, or static.

60 dbu is not enough for building penetration in most cases. And that is where about 2/3 of station listening happens. So a translator, particularly one in a densely populated area that has a marginal principal signal coverage, is very smart.

And you want to talk about redundant translators? Think of all of the AMs getting licenses for translators. Many of these translators are in the same city of license. For example, let's think 700 WLW can't be heard in Cincinnati office buildings, so we'll muck up the dial with an FM translator! Ugh.

It's not redundant if there are listeners who would never listen to an AM station but might if the same programming is on FM. Getting even a limited FM translator signal is vastly better than dying with the rest of the AM band.

 

[cyberdad]

And then there's me. I'm in something of a "translator-free" zone. No translators currently operating here. Operative word there is "currently", and I'll come back to that in a moment. But I think it's safe to say, the reason we don't have any translators is because we're in the fringe reception area for three....if not four...markets. Chicago, Milwaukee, Rockford, IL, and perhaps Madison WI. Translators around here actually would probably welcome. There are only a handful of "city grade" signals here, and a clear noise-free signal here requires a good radio as well as often a bit of antenna tweaking. If you enter my zip code...60014....into radio-locator, you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.

As for that word "currently" above. As in "currently operating", we did get a CP for a translator for WNVR. That parent station operates on 1030 and is licensed to Vernon Hills, IL. But their transmitter location is about two or three miles from my house, which is about 20 miles west of Vernon Hills, the COL. And Vernon Hills sits squarely in the deep null of the 210-watt nighttime signal. In fact, even where I live, WBZ is clearly audible at night under, or even on top of, WNVR depending on how your radio is oriented. I'd expect Vernon Hills is all WBZ at night.

On top of that, the WNVR translator CP indicates that the 70-watt antenna will be mounted on WNVR's existing AM tower. Meaning that it won't successfully make the hop to the COL, either. On top of that, the target audience for WNVR's ethnic audience (Polish) is primarily in the city (Chicago) and closer-in suburbs.

I completely agree with David's comments about the wisdom of placing translators in locations that may not be readily apparent at first glance. But, at least at the onset, the first translator to provide a strong signal at my location wouldn't appear to bring much value to its parent station. So my guess is that this is basically some sort of placeholder until ownership (a group broadcaster) can either move and/or possibly re-purpose it.

 

[KR4BD]

This entire translator thing is getting totally out of hand. Many established stations are now being interfered with and FINALLY the FCC is starting to do something as evidenced by what was issued today in Central Kentucky. Here's a link to what's happening:

http://www.radiodiscussions.com/showthread.php?691622-WVLK-Translator-Being-Challenged-by-WSGS

WVLK has 30 days to shut down or TOTALLY ELIMINATE all the intereference to WSGS they are causing...EVEN in areas where WSGS is not that strong, signalwise. SEVERAL HUNDRED people complained and the FCC has listened. The above link is interesting reading.

 

[CTListener]

If only the FCC would just let AM go the way of the horse and buggy, the rotary phone, etc. Other industries have died and the world hasn't ended. Why are AM broadcasters entitled to move their programming that no one marketable is listening to on the AM band to the FM band in hopes of finding the magical Fountain of 25-54? Would the nation sink into deep recession of AM went silent, the mom and pops and small regional chains went under and the FCC lost those license fees?

 

[radioman148]

If only the FCC would just let AM go the way of the horse and buggy, the rotary phone, etc. Other industries have died and the world hasn't ended. Why are AM broadcasters entitled to move their programming that no one marketable is listening to on the AM band to the FM band in hopes of finding the magical Fountain of 25-54? Would the nation sink into deep recession of AM went silent, the mom and pops and small regional chains went under and the FCC lost those license fees?

You're right, but as we all know the big corporations that own radio stations have alot of sway and they do not want their AM properties to become worthless even faster than they are.

 

[boombox4]

If only the FCC would just let AM go the way of the horse and buggy, the rotary phone, etc. Other industries have died and the world hasn't ended. Why are AM broadcasters entitled to move their programming that no one marketable is listening to on the AM band to the FM band in hopes of finding the magical Fountain of 25-54? Would the nation sink into deep recession of AM went silent, the mom and pops and small regional chains went under and the FCC lost those license fees?

Who is it hurting? A handful of DXers?

 

[crainbebo]

The main problem I have with K272EP 102.3 (the rather wasteful translator of KACS in Chehalis) is that the 90.5 translator is just SIX miles away from the 102.3 translator. That is well over 60dbu, actually. The elevation is quite flat in that area, being in a valley with the hills to the far west (and I mean west on highway 6, near Adna/Pe Ell/etc). There are so many other uses for that translator...they could use it to relay a Seattle or Portland FM into Centralia, as Portland and Seattle are about the equal distance and quite noisy. They could even use it to relay KITI-1420, while we are on the subject of AM "Revitalization"...

 

[gr8oldies]

We already have had issues with translators in East Tennessee. A translator signed on 98.3 in Seymour, paired with WKCE 1120, only having to move because of massive interference in Blount Co between the translator and WMTY, Sweetwater, which does have listenership in Maryville. They moved to 97.1, which is much clearer. A translator for the sports station on 1340 lit up on 101.5, which happens to be on the same frequency of full class C WQUT in Johnson City. I could always drive all over the Knoxville metropolitan area and listen to WQUT almost like a local in the car. With the translator on the air, I mostly still can except for a sliver of downtown where both alternate. I doubt WQUT has an audience in Knoxville, as it carries the same morning show as local WIMZ and mostly the same music, but this translator isn't doing the AM any favors. Works on paper, yes, but not practically

 

[jim-satx]

But the three translators are on FM. There are plenty of people who will listen to a particular format on FM who would never, ever listen on AM. And the better SA translators cover between 50% and 60% of the whole market's population, so they are quite effective in adding numbers to declining AM stations.

Good points. I admit that I'm looking at it from the point of view of a DXer who's seen a bunch of translators and low-power stations pop up on the FM band during the last couple of years - not a typical listener by any means.

I was surprised by KTSA's move, but looking at the ratings, I now see that WOAI has over three times its share.

 

[Emartz91]

Prime example. I receive all three Stations that WBZC 88.9 uses.

88.9 Purple distant contour (Main signal)

95.1 Translator. Edge of red contour with some interference, very crowded frequency.

100.7 Translator. Very strong signal. They allowed this station over a full power signal 45 miles away. This station is three miles away from me.

94.9 and 92.9 would of been better frequencies. Clear for 50 miles.

 

[bobdavcav]

One translator I've complained about on this board over and over again is 103.3 in downtown Seattle. Supposedly it's supposed to fill in the 103.7 signal downtown, and it works in buildings, but in the car, the main signal is more than adiquit, as are all the Tiger Mountain signals. No they're not as good as the closer Cougar signals in parts of downtown, but those signals have problems in parts of the area as well. What I don't understand is why there are 0 hd to translator combos in this market. It's been done in many other markets, why not here? Another one is KMIH 88.9, which is a class D station at 88.9 with a 94.5 translator that covers most of Seattle proper. That's actually kind of an interesting station and it gives it a decent shot up here in the north end. Another example is KHTP and I believe KEGL in the Houston area, both full class C signals that simulcast. Houston is relatively flat, so what's the point?

 

[dlf1]

Houston is very flat, but 107.5 's antenna (KGLK) is located in Liverpool (30+ miles south of Houston): KHPT (106.9) has their tower near Splendora (40 miles or so NE of Houston.

During intense tropo, KGLK can face interference from KXTN (San Antonio) north of Houston (Kingwood, Spring, etc).

KHPT can battle KLUB from Victoria (not a bad Classic Rock station); to the south.

Given the size of Metro Houston, both stations have areas of spotty reception. The simulcast also helped "The Eagle" topple "The Arrow" which was the incumbent Classic Rock/Classic Hits station whose antenna is at the Missouri City antenna farm.

My guess is the simulcast and subsequent coverage may also be "insurance" against a challenge from a "Missouri City stick". The simulcast ratings are looking pretty good these days as well: I believe #2 in the 6 plus.

 

[bobdavcav]

Hmm. Yeah I know the metro is pretty spread out, it almost felt like driving from where we were staying in Spring to Johnson Space Center was comparable to driving from north Lynnwood to SeaTac Airport. It's been years since I've been down there, and maybe there wasn't much tropo that weekend, but we didn't have any problems with 106.9 downtown. Under normal conditions, where does 106.9 start to have problems?