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iHeartless

The stations and advertisers pay Nielsen to get that information. If you'd like to pay, you too can get that information.

But if advertisers, who are the ones paying the money, don't have a problem with the statistics, why are you so concerned?

LOL. Concerned? Me? Hardly. Interested, sure. Not concerned.

Let's be realistic. Is anyone gonna seriously say that the volume of listeners (with tuning discretion) rises during these commercial breaks? Really? Get real. Everyone - that has half a brain - knows it's gonna go down. Who's trying to fool who? The only question is, how much? Obviously, the radio "brain trust" so-to-speak believes that the loss is worth it. They've done such a stellar job of managing the course of the industry in recent years, they can't be wrong. Again, LOL.
 
Let's be realistic. Is anyone gonna seriously say that the volume of listeners (with tuning discretion) rises during these commercial breaks? Really? Get real. Everyone - that has half a brain - knows it's gonna go down. Who's trying to fool who?

No one's fooling anyone. The facts are there for all the advertisers to see. They know exactly what they're paying for.

You on the other hand are looking a gift horse in the mouth, as they used to say. No one is demanding your credit card or personal information in order to listen to the radio. You just turn it on, and it's there. You should be complaining about all the commercials you have to watch on cable TV...a service you pay for. That's unfair.
 
IF Buffalo-Niagara Falls and Rochester were PPM markets, it's quite likely that a significant difference would be evident in the ratings, similar to what happened to the television stations when Nielsen went to meters. Channel 7, the long-professed Buffalo market local news leader was shown to be far less dominant after the market became metered. Viewers often told interviewers or wrote in their diaries that they viewed Channel 7 Eyewitness News (WKBW-TV), when in fact the meters revealed that Channel 4 (WIVB-TV) had a significantly larger number of viewers than revealed in diaries or follow-up interviews. These days, Channel 7 has a difficult time beating Judge Judy.

Buffalo radio PPM would likely reveal, as it has in countless other once-diary markets, that legacy stations have significantly different (lower) and shorter listening patterns; that listeners punch around, and that commercial breaks, tiresome DJ bits and unfavorable (burned out and unfamiliar) songs motivate listeners to let their fingers do the walking. Programmers in PPM markets can show their air talent exactly when listeners started to head for the exits. Smart air talent can use the information to improve their presentation and content. You can refine and reel-in an undisciplined air talent. The same can't be said for an eight minute -twelve unit commercial break, no matter how creative the commercials might be. There's always one car dealer, vape merchant or carpet store that drives listeners away. A veteran, major market PD who ran a Howard Stern in the Morning, Classic Rock All Day operation once professed that if PPM were as pervasive when Stern was generating big diary ratings on OTA radio, PPM would have revealed that he actually had half the audience that diary method markets indicated. Stern often ran ten minute commercial breaks, especially in hours when his interviews and bits exceeded their limit. In many cases, PPM would have revealed that his lengthy bits and extended commercial breaks would have generated a decline in the number of listeners. Stern's genius however, often brought these listeners back because they were dedicated and couldn't get anything else like him elsewhere. These days Stern wannabees are numerous and Stern no longer does do the butt-bongo-bingo routine now that he's had his head examined and has learned to accept the fact that he was a misogynistic creep all those years.
 
No one's fooling anyone. The facts are there for all the advertisers to see. They know exactly what they're paying for.

You on the other hand are looking a gift horse in the mouth, as they used to say. No one is demanding your credit card or personal information in order to listen to the radio. You just turn it on, and it's there. You should be complaining about all the commercials you have to watch on cable TV...a service you pay for. That's unfair.

First, I'm neither concerned, nor complaining. And, who said that advertisers didn't know for what they are paying. Was it me that said that? Um, no.

The question remains... listeners... up, down, or the same?

As for your recommendation - "... should be complaining about... cable TV...", why would I complain about that? FYI, I am a proud cordcutter... and I have never (yes, literally, never) thought to get cable (or satellite for that matter). For me, it would be a monumental waste of money IMO.

Finally, please explain your statement ["You on the other hand are looking a gift horse in the mouth..."]. How exactly have I been doing that? By asking a data-centered question? LOL.
 
The question remains... listeners... up, down, or the same?

As I said, it's copyrighted information, and it's against the law and this website's TOS for me to disclose copyrighted information. If you want to know, you can pay for it like everyone else.
 
As I said, it's copyrighted information, and it's against the law and this website's TOS for me to disclose copyrighted information. If you want to know, you can pay for it like everyone else.

Oh. OK. I would not have thought that Up/Down/Flat would be copyrighted... or a violation of law. But, if you say so.
 
IF Buffalo-Niagara Falls and Rochester were PPM markets, it's quite likely that a significant difference would be evident in the ratings, similar to what happened to the television stations when Nielsen went to meters. Channel 7, the long-professed Buffalo market local news leader was shown to be far less dominant after the market became metered. Viewers often told interviewers or wrote in their diaries that they viewed Channel 7 Eyewitness News (WKBW-TV), when in fact the meters revealed that Channel 4 (WIVB-TV) had a significantly larger number of viewers than revealed in diaries or follow-up interviews. These days, Channel 7 has a difficult time beating Judge Judy.

Buffalo radio PPM would likely reveal, as it has in countless other once-diary markets, that legacy stations have significantly different (lower) and shorter listening patterns; that listeners punch around, and that commercial breaks, tiresome DJ bits and unfavorable (burned out and unfamiliar) songs motivate listeners to let their fingers do the walking. Programmers in PPM markets can show their air talent exactly when listeners started to head for the exits. Smart air talent can use the information to improve their presentation and content. You can refine and reel-in an undisciplined air talent. The same can't be said for an eight minute -twelve unit commercial break, no matter how creative the commercials might be. There's always one car dealer, vape merchant or carpet store that drives listeners away. A veteran, major market PD who ran a Howard Stern in the Morning, Classic Rock All Day operation once professed that if PPM were as pervasive when Stern was generating big diary ratings on OTA radio, PPM would have revealed that he actually had half the audience that diary method markets indicated. Stern often ran ten minute commercial breaks, especially in hours when his interviews and bits exceeded their limit. In many cases, PPM would have revealed that his lengthy bits and extended commercial breaks would have generated a decline in the number of listeners. Stern's genius however, often brought these listeners back because they were dedicated and couldn't get anything else like him elsewhere. These days Stern wannabees are numerous and Stern no longer does do the butt-bongo-bingo routine now that he's had his head examined and has learned to accept the fact that he was a misogynistic creep all those years.

As someone who was part of the development of the PPM, going back to 2002-2003 in Philadelphia and then to the further tests in the several years prior to "going official" in 2008 in Houston, I'd say that most of your observations are incorrect.

What was noted was:

1. Stations that had a low cume and a narrow cume, but huge TSL were hurt in the PPM, with things like smooth jazz/soft jazz (under a variety of names) actually having much lower TSL and no expanded cume.

2. Many talk formats ended up having much lower TSL and not much more cume. As a foreground format, those who did listen remembered it. But there is not much secondary listening, and that is where the PPM changed overall levels per station.

3. Some "secondary" formats benefited, as they just never got written in the diary. I was involved with a number of stations that had a "my second choice station" format... in LA, cume for that format went from around 700,000 to 1.5 million because the PPM detected what the diarykeepers forgot.

3. Secondary contemporary music formats added lots of cume that got forgotten in the diary. Many diary participants remembered their favorite stations, but not the secondary ones.

4. Radio overall lost over 1/3 of the time spent listening when the PPM rolled out. While dairy keepers put in rounded hours and half hours and did not register breaks for coffee, the bathroom, phone calls, taking kids to the bus stop, etc., the PPM "deducted" that time.

5. I agree that Stern would have done worse in the PPM as he had narrow cume, and listeners just wrote down "6 AM to 10" no matter what. In the PPM, I believe he would have not been first or second in big markets... he would have been nearer 10th. Again, that is because there was no "phantom cume" that the PPM recognized but the diary often did not show.

6. Few if any stations showed lower cume in the PPM. The difference is that listeners did not write in the diary stations that were not their couple of favorites, so those secondary ones got no diary mention. Diaries generally showed two to three stations, PPM shows six to seven.
 
Let's be realistic. Is anyone gonna seriously say that the volume of listeners (with tuning discretion) rises during these commercial breaks? Really? Get real. Everyone - that has half a brain - knows it's gonna go down. Who's trying to fool who? The only question is, how much? Obviously, the radio "brain trust" so-to-speak believes that the loss is worth it. They've done such a stellar job of managing the course of the industry in recent years, they can't be wrong. Again, LOL.

The PPM does not tell you that. Stations buy additional data from a third party to see the minute by minute data.

Using that data, station owners have seen that, over hours and days, having fewer longer stopsets loses fewer listeners than many shorter ones.

Listeners who leave in a stopset leave almost instantly. Otherwise, they stay. So lots of short stops lose more listeners than a few long ones. This is hard data, based on looking at many stations in many, many markets.
 
The PPM does not tell you that. Stations buy additional data from a third party to see the minute by minute data.

Using that data, station owners have seen that, over hours and days, having fewer longer stopsets loses fewer listeners than many shorter ones.

Listeners who leave in a stopset leave almost instantly. Otherwise, they stay. So lots of short stops lose more listeners than a few long ones. This is hard data, based on looking at many stations in many, many markets.

Why is the listener behavior you cite so counterintuitive to the way radio listeners who contribute to this board deal with long stop sets? Is this just another example of how the brains of "radio geeks" differ not only from those of people in the business but from those of the average listener? I understand and accept a lot of the statistical evidence that you, BigA and Michael have put forth here over the years, but I'm always changing stations during ad breaks, short and long, and have been doing so since my teen Top 40 listening days. Are "normal" people really that different, or do the statistics reflect the captive audiences (shoppers, patients, office workers) whose members have no authority to change the station for any reason?
 
Buffalo radio PPM would likely reveal, as it has in countless other once-diary markets, that legacy stations have significantly different (lower) and shorter listening patterns; that listeners punch around, and that commercial breaks, tiresome DJ bits and unfavorable (burned out and unfamiliar) songs motivate listeners to let their fingers do the walking.

That doesn't much differ from: 1. Stations that had a low cume and a narrow cume, but huge TSL were hurt in the PPM, with things like smooth jazz/soft jazz (under a variety of names) actually having much lower TSL and no expanded cume.

2. Many talk formats ended up having much lower TSL and not much more cume. As a foreground format, those who did listen remembered it. But there is not much secondary listening, and that is where the PPM changed overall levels per station.

4. Radio overall lost over 1/3 of the time spent listening when the PPM rolled out. While dairy keepers put in rounded hours and half hours and did not register breaks for coffee, the bathroom, phone calls, taking kids to the bus stop, etc., the PPM "deducted" that time.

That's the essence and intent of my original post.

5. I agree that Stern would have done worse in the PPM as he had narrow cume, and listeners just wrote down "6 AM to 10" no matter what. In the PPM, I believe he would have not been first or second in big markets... he would have been nearer 10th. Again, that is because there was no "phantom cume" that the PPM recognized but the diary often did not show.

Exactly.

Thank you.
 
Why is the listener behavior you cite so counterintuitive to the way radio listeners who contribute to this board deal with long stop sets? Is this just another example of how the brains of "radio geeks" differ not only from those of people in the business but from those of the average listener? I understand and accept a lot of the statistical evidence that you, BigA and Michael have put forth here over the years, but I'm always changing stations during ad breaks, short and long, and have been doing so since my teen Top 40 listening days. Are "normal" people really that different, or do the statistics reflect the captive audiences (shoppers, patients, office workers) whose members have no authority to change the station for any reason?

"Normal" listeners don't behave, in general, the same way that those who are either "amateur professionals" or real radio workers.

Back in the late 50's, I used to change between my market's 3 Top 40 stations every time there was a song I hated, which was about one out of every three. As FM increased the specialization, more and more listeners stayed with stations even during ads as they tended to play fewer bad songs (and the listeners who loved my "bad songs" found other stations they liked).
 
Why is the listener behavior you cite so counterintuitive to the way radio listeners who contribute to this board deal with long stop sets?

Here's one possible explanation: Mentally tuning out spots can achieve the same results personally as physically tuning them out. But the PPM only registers the physical action.

It's interesting to watch the response of a listener when a well produced spot shows up during a cluster of 8 spots. It isn't as much about the number, but the actual content.
 
Advertisers with a compelling message , the right demo, and the appropriate frequency get results. Enough Said
 
Here's one possible explanation: Mentally tuning out spots can achieve the same results personally as physically tuning them out. But the PPM only registers the physical action.

That is a very good and quite logical point. I am going to steal, er, quote you in the future.
 
There are a couple of possible explanations for "normal listener behavior". One has already been mentioned - people simply are in an environment where they can't change the station. Whoever is in charge of the audio choice at work picks whatever is least objectionable on the receiver and that's what everybody gets in the building. More and more that's a stream and not radio, especially in retail locations. The last thing a retailer wants their customer hearing is somebody else's ad. That has an impact on radio TSL.

The use of other "entertainment choices" has been cited. How many people consume a single "entertainment choice" simultaneously? Right now, I'm on my laptop with the TV on in the background and a morning news program on. I'm not grabbing the remote when a commercial set comes on the TV because the TV is primarily background. If something catches my attention, I stop typing and watch the story. If something online reminds me of a song or story of interest, Google finds it and I watch or listen to as much as I need to get the amount of content I want.

That also brings us to "background" vs. "foreground" content. Why are some background stations so prevalent in the ratings? First may be that they've got a big signal that penetrates buildings and makes them easy to tune. They have bland content that creates a sonic environment that doesn't distract people. People don't listen to them, they hear them. PPM has no way to determine the difference. Diaries do so inaccurately.

Foreground stations that create content that listeners actually pay attention to typically deliver better results for advertisers if commercials are placed early or late in the stopset because of the tune-out factor. Advertisers who buy more spots get better results because that placement happens more often and because repetition of audio advertising works.

Listening habits in the car are likely to vary significantly. If you're alone with nobody else to complain you likely push buttons when commercials come on. More and more people are listening to their own music on USB, streaming from their phones, or listening to satellite radio because it's as easy to push that preset as it is to push a radio station button. They know little or nothing about local happenings or events unless Waze tells them about a traffic tie-up.

Add in voice control that makes changing sources simpler and you've got another shift in listening. At the time when radio should be promoting their strengths to people with a growing number of choices promotions staffs and budgets are either on life support or non-existent.

Maybe iHeart will do a national campaign for their national formats. I'll bet that the focus will be iHeart.com, and not "your local station".
 
So far I haven't seen any local promo directors among the layoffs.
The reason being in many cases one individual handles four stations. In larger clusters the job is shared between two or three employees who also handle production, on-air/voice tracking and promotion.
 
The reason being in many cases one individual handles four stations. In larger clusters the job is shared between two or three employees who also handle production, on-air/voice tracking and promotion.

I've seen a lot of production staff cuts. That kind of work is being hubbed out of market. Similar to Entercom.
 
Most promotions "departments" became one person and a bunch of part-timers or interns long ago. The only left to cut are part-time hours. As noted above, the promotions people also handle other responsibilities, like public affairs and PT on-air. They're also the people doing the bulk of public appearances because there's little or no airstaff left to do events. The promotions people also need the appearance fees to supplement their meager income.
 
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