Buffalo August '21 book

[Rusty Bridges]

Hard to tell because not many AAA stations exist. They would certainly do better than what passes for Alternative these days. Someone who was 18 in 1990 is still in the "Saleable" demos. They grew up on the music I mentioned. It's ridiculous to say that Classic Rock appeals to 40 year olds, but 90s music doesn't...

Must be a reason "not too many AAA stations exist." Could be because the format can't get arrested in most markets.

Listeners will tell you that they want to hear new music... as long as it's new music of the genre they like. The listeners' tastes are fragmented, and as a result, AAA stations can't get the traction required to generate revenue. You'll hear sentiment like, "Man, that was a great station!" Yep. Great station. It couldn't break a 1.3 share and after two years, went away. Oh, but it played great music. I loved it. Too bad the music you loved didn't appeal to more listeners.

Know where most radio listeners are getting new music they like? On country format stations... where most of the music sounds like 70s and 80s Skynyrd, Marshall Tucker and 38 Special tracks. That's another thread unto itself. Country music has really taken such a turn... Save for a few artists and groups, it "bros, boobs and brews."

New music from legacy artists and groups doesn't attract younger listeners simply because the songs are new. Preconceived notions play a big part in determining why listeners reject new music from legacy artists. Take Paul McCartney, who put out a new album last year. It hit the charts top five, and then disappeared. It had a few noteworthy tracks too, but younger demos viewed the music as "the guy my parents (or grandparents) listened to." And the upper demo crowd didn't rush out in droves and buy it. "Oh, McCartney's great ... I like his old stuff. That's why I went to see him." Yep. They want to see and hear him play Maybe I'm Amazed, Junior's Farm, Wouldn't That Be Something, Hey Jude, a bunch of Beatles tunes, Band On The Run and Jet. The new songs? Not so much.

Go to a legacy music acts show ... that is, if legacy artists and groups maintain their tours, given the risk of covid-19 ... and you can see that a substantial number of people go to the concession stands or the loo when the artists/groups do their new material. Concert goers go to see their favorite acts mostly to hear the hits. It this way, it's very much like radio.

 

[tbolt909]

Must be a reason "not too many AAA stations exist." Could be because the format can't get arrested in most markets.

Listeners will tell you that they want to hear new music... as long as it's new music of the genre they like. The listeners' tastes are fragmented, and as a result, AAA stations can't get the traction required to generate revenue. You'll hear sentiment like, "Man, that was a great station!" Yep. Great station. It couldn't break a 1.3 share and after two years, went away. Oh, but it played great music. I loved it. Too bad the music you loved didn't appeal to more listeners.

New music from legacy artists and groups doesn't attract younger listeners simply because the songs are new. Preconceived notions play a big part in determining why listeners reject new music from legacy artists.

Record "sales" are generally non existent these days for everyone. If you sell 20 copies in a week, you have a #1 record.(yes an exaggeration).

How did Alternative Buffalo do during its run?
Abysmal. How about WBUF? Those formats are stuff that the masses are supposed to love. What is the excuse for failure? The Wolf will play your "beer swilling songs" and it too will die a grim death.

Why is it that only AAA formats are considered "niche" if the ratings are low? The ratings for some of these "well researched" ones have failed. Classic Alternative (or whatever moniker) could certainly do better than many of the stations that are struggling now...

 

[TheBigA]

Why is it that only AAA formats are considered "niche" if the ratings are low?

The main issue with AAA isn't ratings. It's the median age of the audience, which is typically about 65.

The second issue is the absolute hatred the audience has for commercials. Thus, it's a non-com format.

The three stations you mention might get low ratings, but they're more sellable.

 

[davideduardo]

Record "sales" are generally non existent these days for everyone. If you sell 20 copies in a week, you have a #1 record.(yes an exaggeration).

The industry calls "sales" or "record sales" everything in the new music universe of downloads, physical product and streams. Heck, artists still talk about having a "new record"; we know it means "recording" today and not a 78 rpm phonograph record.

Why is it that only AAA formats are considered "niche" if the ratings are low? The ratings for some of these "well researched" ones have failed. Classic Alternative (or whatever moniker) could certainly do better than many of the stations that are struggling now...

As BigA says, AAA has become a mostly non-com format because the demos are so old.

While older leaning formats like classic hits get good local sales results in smaller and medium markets, AAA is not as palatable to local direct accounts and has real trouble with local sales. So looking for listener support and not advertising based revenue is what will sustain that format for a while more.

AAA is a hard format to research as every listener lives in their own little universe and there are currents and sub-currents that make it the bouillabaisse of radio formats. That's why AAA in Portland is different from that in the Monterey, CA, market and those two are not the same as the Denver mood or mentality.

 

[tbolt909]

The main issue with AAA isn't ratings. It's the median age of the audience, which is typically about 65.

The second issue is the absolute hatred the audience has for commercials. Thus, it's a non-com format.

The three stations you mention might get low ratings, but they're more sellable.

So, Country & Classic Rock listeners enjoy 9 minute stop sets? Where did you get the 65 + number for AAA? If true, then News Talk, Classic Rock & Hits must be 70+. All of those formats have more listeners over 50 than under.

No station is "Sellable" without some ratings...

 

[tbolt909]

The industry calls "sales" or "record sales" everything in the new music universe of downloads, physical product and streams. Heck, artists still talk about having a "new record"; we know it means "recording" today and not a 78 rpm phonograph record.

As BigA says, AAA has become a mostly non-com format because the demos are so old.

While older leaning formats like classic hits get good local sales results in smaller and medium markets, AAA is not as palatable to local direct accounts and has real trouble with local sales. So looking for listener support and not advertising based revenue is what will sustain that format for a while more.

AAA is a hard format to research as every listener lives in their own little universe and there are currents and sub-currents that make it the bouillabaisse of radio formats. That's why AAA in Portland is different from that in the Monterey, CA, market and those two are not the same as the Denver mood or mentality.

Yes, I was not talking about vinyl sales. Music sales in general are extremely low.

You're correct that AAA is and should be unique to each market. That's the way it should be...

 

[davideduardo]

Must be a reason "not too many AAA stations exist." Could be because the format can't get arrested in most markets.

Listeners will tell you that they want to hear new music... as long as it's new music of the genre they like. The listeners' tastes are fragmented, and as a result, AAA stations can't get the traction required to generate revenue. You'll hear sentiment like, "Man, that was a great station!" Yep. Great station. It couldn't break a 1.3 share and after two years, went away. Oh, but it played great music. I loved it. Too bad the music you loved didn't appeal to more listeners.

When the group I was with took over Gene Autry's AAA station in Los Angeles, KSCA, 23 years ago it was barely over a 1 share. When we went to the WCAA offices to "take the keys" for the station, the manager gave us a long, cautionary, warning about how the lower powered signal was what kept that station from big success and we should not expect much better than the same low ones that they had been getting for several years with AAA.

In other words, they thought the problem was the signal and not the AAA format.

First full book as regional Mexican: #1 in the market.

Things have not gotten better for that format in the near quarter century since then.

 

[TheBigA]

So, Country & Classic Rock listeners enjoy 9 minute stop sets?

No, but they put up with it.

Where did you get the 65 + number for AAA?

From WXPN Philadelphia. But it's consistent with several other stations in the same format in other places.

If true, then News Talk, Classic Rock & Hits must be 70+.

You'd be surprised. Classic Rock has been #1 18-34 in several major markets. News/Talk is old, but the format allows for more spots and long form infomercials. We've told you this many, many times before.

 

[davideduardo]

So, Country & Classic Rock listeners enjoy 9 minute stop sets? Where did you get the 65 + number for AAA?

From ratings in markets like Denver, Monterey-Salinas, Portland and others.

If true, then News Talk, Classic Rock & Hits must be 70+. All of those formats have more listeners over 50 than under.

News-talk leans old, but they have the ability to do more breaks and more spots without losing audience. They charge less per spot, but run more of them. And still, stations like WSB in Atlanta are #3 in 25-54 and #1 in 12+. Additionally, because the format is perceived as foreground, many advertisers think it is a good environment for ads.

Classic rock and classic hits target 35-54. Yes, they get lots of 55+ as well, but the good ones are very strong in the standard sales demos. KRTH in LA has been #1 on average in 25-54 for the last 6 months. CBS-FM in NYC is 4th in 25-54 on average and only beaten by an Urban AC, an AC and a Spanish language station. I can give similar ratings for classic rock stations in the markets where that format does well; the best performers tend to be in less ethnic markets, though but that is a different issue from age distribution.

No station is "Sellable" without some ratings...

And the formats you mention do very, very well. Nationally, after AC and Country, they are about the best performers in 25-54.

CHR and Urban stations have big teen audiences, but that is not salable. But the 18-34 and 25-44 is. Same goes for Classic Rock and Classic hits. They have 55+ audiences, but they sell the 25-54 to agencies; the older audience is definitely salable in the local direct account area, too.

(Note: formats like Urban, Urban AC, Regional Mexican and other Hispanic formats, etc. perform in proportion to the local population but don't rank as high nationally. And CHR is in a lull, due in part to 18 months of rather un-stellar production.)

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, I was not talking about vinyl sales. Music sales in general are extremely low.

No, they are not. It's just that record labels (see the anachronism there: they hardly make records any more and they don't put "labels" on streams) get revenue from spins (see, another anachronistic term) online whether it be a paid service or a free stream.

You're correct that AAA is and should be unique to each market. That's the way it should be...

But the format is not a commercially viable one. As BigA said, this is increasingly the area for non-commercial stations and even then, many markets don't have enough AAA listeners to support the format via donations.

 

[TheBigA]

The industry calls "sales" or "record sales" everything in the new music universe of downloads, physical product and streams. Heck, artists still talk about having a "new record"; we know it means "recording" today and not a 78 rpm phonograph record.

The RIAA has come up with some kind of multiple where a certain number of streams will qualify as a platinum single, and a multiple of various factors will qualify as a platinum album. But "record sales" is a bit of a misnomer these days.

• Each permanent digital album or physical album sale count as 1 Unit for
certification purposes.
• 10 permanent track downloads from the album count as 1 Unit for
certification purposes.
• 1,500 on-demand audio and/or video streams from the album count as 1
Unit for certification purposes.

I heard a 27 year old artist talk about his new album the other day. He started to say, "Do they still make albums?" Then he quickly caught himself and said, "Oh right, I just spent a few hours autographing CD sleeves, so they obviously do." Whoops!

 

[davideduardo]

I heard a 27 year old artist talk about his new album the other day. He started to say, "Do they still make albums?" Then he quickly caught himself and said, "Oh right, I just spent a few hours autographing CD sleeves, so they obviously do." Whoops!

We have software that creates digital "photo albums". I think that the term "album" has transitioned to mean "a collection of several or more songs sold as a set".

We redefined, in past decades, the word "gay". We can certainly keep using the word "album" but with a new meaning.

 

[four4rock]

< snip >

And the formats you mention do very, very well. Nationally, after AC and Country, they are about the best performers in 25-54.
< snip >

Is there a (publicly available listing of the count for each so-called format (i.e. country, rock, talk, etc) for the continental United States... along with a map of how they are geographically dispersed? [I searched, but couldn't find one that I felt was even remotely reliable. For example, one had 8 country stations in Corning, NY]

Edited to add: I'm talking about actual brick & mortar radio stations physically located in a US location... not simply the availability of a stations content via some online source.

 

[ckg279]

F4R: Insofar as Corning, NY and its country stations...a number of those stations are simulcasts due to the fact that that specific area of New York is filled with mountains and 1 tower won't cover the area adequately; there's a tri-cast with stations owned by 7 Mountains Media, 2 others are owned by Tower Communications and another is owned by Saga Communications.

 

[TheBigA]

Is there a (publicly available listing of the count for each so-called format (i.e. country, rock, talk, etc) for the continental United States... along with a map of how they are geographically dispersed?

How do you want it grouped? State, format, Nielsen market?

 

[Buddy Shula]

So, Country & Classic Rock listeners enjoy 9 minute stop sets? Where did you get the 65 + number for AAA? If true, then News Talk, Classic Rock & Hits must be 70+. All of those formats have more listeners over 50 than under.

No station is "Sellable" without some ratings...

That like saying any car dealers not in the top ten don’t sell any cars. You are totally incorrect.

 

[four4rock]

How do you want it grouped? State, format, Nielsen market?

For the numerical count, I was just looking for the aggregate in the continental US.... and the most widely used industry program categories are. For the map, I was envisioning some type of a pin/point map. Maybe this information isn't compiled or doesn't exist (hard to imagine, but possibly, I suppose). [Not my intent to derail this particular thread. I just thought it would give some insight into what formats/styles are popular in certain areas... and, hence, higher ratings.]

 

[SirRoxalot]

For the numerical count, I was just looking for the aggregate in the continental US.... and the most widely used industry program categories are. For the map, I was envisioning some type of a pin/point map. Maybe this information isn't compiled or doesn't exist (hard to imagine, but possibly, I suppose). [Not my intent to derail this particular thread. I just thought it would give some insight into what formats/styles are popular in certain areas... and, hence, higher ratings.]

You could simply look at ratings for individual markets. Radio Online ratings for individual markets are pretty complete and they list both owners and formats. If you look at both Nielsen and Eastlan ratings you're likely to get a pretty good snapshot of most markets. There are a few successful stations that don't subscribe to either but they would be outliers. Some of the format listings could use updating or refinement but you'll generally get reasonable results.

https://menu.****************/content/ratings

You can also get a listing of all radio stations in the US for a variety of formats:

Category:Radio stations in the United States by format - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And a listing of all radio stations by state:

List of radio stations in North America by media market - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The data's there if you've got the time and interest to compile it.

 

[TheBigA]

I just thought it would give some insight into what formats/styles are popular in certain areas... and, hence, higher ratings.]

The problem with your request is there is only one company that does ratings (Nielsen) and their data is proprietary. Using their data to do a national map would be a violation of their copyright. They break their data down by local markets.

What the industry does is look at the number of stations nationally that use a particular format. That's how we know that country, talk, and AC have the most stations. But to then assign "popularity" factors to it would require using the Nielsen info.

 

[four4rock]

You could simply look at ratings for individual markets. Radio Online ratings for individual markets are pretty complete and they list both owners and formats. If you look at both Nielsen and Eastlan ratings you're likely to get a pretty good snapshot of most markets. There are a few successful stations that don't subscribe to either but they would be outliers. Some of the format listings could use updating or refinement but you'll generally get reasonable results.

https://menu.****************/content/ratings

You can also get a listing of all radio stations in the US for a variety of formats:

Category:Radio stations in the United States by format - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And a listing of all radio stations by state:

List of radio stations in North America by media market - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The data's there if you've got the time and interest to compile it.

Great! Thanks! I've got a bunch of boring conference calls that I'm required to be on. So, this may just be the alternative to napping. LOL